(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor. So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal.  As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor. So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal.  As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, both sides value life. Life is a common value that both side share. So, what all goes into life (peoples lives) these days? I assume that you and I have much different lives. Me, I own a business and I have a family to support which requires a lot of time and effort on my behalf. I'm out there working and interacting with people every day with the exception of typical slow times of the year and occasional opportunities to take a breather and catch up on paperwork or spend time doing this during patches of mild weather like now.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Our governor spent more time bouncing between his constituencies and pleasing his constituencies than he spent worrying about the impacts on the lives of working people and small business's and so forth. You know what, the more I get to know the Democrats, the more I can't stand the Democrats. To be honest, by the time we get out of this financial mess, we are going to be in debt up to our eye balls if not over our head. Bob, the writing is on the wall. The United States as we know it, is not coming out this crisis the way it is today. We both agree on that. If you're lucky, you'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Now, you can stick with selling/playing liberal kumbaya, love and peace, live and let live and continue supporting liberal peacekeepers for Democratic presidents whose main purpose is to keep an old party that's half rotten together. Now, you may not be in the rotten half of the party. You too seem like a decent level headed person at times too. You worked for what you have and stashed away as much as you could to set yourself up for retirement which explains the reason why the economy doesn't seem to matter to you at this point. You may have flirted with Marxism but you didn't stick with Marxism and embraced the American way. I'll make you a deal. You keep the crazy liberal comments to yourself, I'll keep the comments about future violence to myself. One other thing relating to the violence that I speak of, it's not an empty threat, it's a real threat that at least wise enough to know where the border was between blue and red. I'm going to share some real life information with you, the looters and rioters stopped a few miles from my home because there was a heavily armed group of residents who were waiting for them. I had neighborhood duty. Like I said, I believe the American people are mainly ahead of the people running Washington, DC.

(07-23-2020, 11:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking...

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

(07-23-2020, 11:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, both sides value life. Life is a common value that both side share. So, what all goes into life (peoples lives) these days? I assume that you and I have much different lives. Me, I own a business and I have a family to support which requires a lot of time and effort on my behalf. I'm out there working and interacting with people every day with the exception of typical slow times of the year and occasional opportunities to take a breather and catch up on paperwork or spend time doing this during patches of mild weather like now.

As a software guy, I had a small fixed group of team members that I had to interact with rather than clients which you deal with for a brief time then might not see again for quite a while.  Quite different in a way.  I got to know better a handful of people who were similar to me.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Our governor spent more time bouncing between his constituencies and pleasing his constituencies than he spent worrying about the impacts on the lives of working people and small business's and so forth. You know what, the more I get to know the Democrats, the more I can't stand the Democrats. To be honest, by the time we get out of this financial mess, we are going to be in debt up to our eye balls if not over our head. Bob, the writing is on the wall. The United States as we know it, is not coming out this crisis the way it is today. We both agree on that. If you're lucky, you'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Now, you can stick with selling/playing liberal kumbaya, love and peace, live and let live and continue supporting liberal peacekeepers for Democratic presidents whose main purpose is to keep an old party that's half rotten together. Now, you may not be in the rotten half of the party. You too seem like a decent level headed person at times too. You worked for what you have and stashed away as much as you could to set yourself up for retirement which explains the reason why the economy doesn't seem to matter to you at this point. You may have flirted with Marxism but you didn't stick with Marxism and embraced the American way. I'll make you a deal. You keep the crazy liberal comments to yourself, I'll keep the comments about future violence to myself. One other thing relating to the violence that I speak of, it's not an empty threat, it's a real threat that at least wise enough to know where the border was between blue and red. I'm going to share some real life information with you, the looters and rioters stopped a few miles from my home because there was a heavily armed group of residents who were waiting for them. I had neighborhood duty. Like I said, I believe the American people are mainly ahead of the people running Washington, DC.

I agree that many politicians serve the elites rather than the people who elect them.  I see the Republicans as being slightly worse that way, but both parties are in it.

I still do not recognize myself or the other blues I know in how you describe them.  You persist in creating wild strawmen, the easier to not have to confront the real motives of your opposition and keep your imaginings alive.  To the extent that you keep preaching bogus information, I will likely enough keep countering it.

Armed neighborhood watches are a good supplement to the racist violent police who are more interested in going after protestors than enforcing the law.  I would clearly prefer that vigilante justice were not necessary, that the police would do their jobs, but as long as they keep the racist violent approach to the community, the vigilante groups will be necessary.

The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking.

Your mind set is locked into denying this, that the Democrats are the ones who are closer to the working man than the elites.  As a result, you create bogus Democratic motivations which as a blue leaning guy I do not recognize.  They do not represent what I really perceive and value.  Repeatedly pointing this out seems to not effect you.  I am persistent too, though.

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor.

Quote: So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal. As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

(07-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

The mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark, mark and claim  territory, wreck/destroy peoples property, threaten and kill  people too. It would be nice if they were just dogs. Unfortunately, the dogs are humans with rights and legal protections who know the legal  restrictions pertaining to law  enforcement. I met one at a Bush rally. Can you imagine, a Liberal kid from some place with no sense of respect or values of his own  feeling free to pick on and intimidate    an elderly woman who happened to be a retired nurse about your age  and    my mother.   Yes, I'm familiar with the shit that Liberal culture produces and sends to Democratic cities/strong holds  to aggravate American culture. Hint: They didn't have a political identity back then. I assume Liberal culture is buying into its own hype and making believers of themselves too. I keep telling you that Liberal culture is pretty much on it's own at this point.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I listened to a real liberal (an American lefty who happened to be a black middle aged woman ) associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in Las Vegas. As old Biden would say, she seemed decent, articulate and appealing to main stream middle Americans like me which must have been rare for Democratic black people back  in 08'. She seemed pretty level headed or down home as we say  and she  seemed like an straight shooter too. According to her, Congress has a very narrow window of opportunity to get something decent (practical and mutually beneficial) passed before something mind blowing occurs and window is closed for along time. Do you know what I think, I think she knows that I'm right about America because she's hearing what we (real Americans) are saying and she knows we aren't bluffing or posting empty threats and or showing any signs of clinging to or sticking with old  laurels associated with the past. To be blunt, the politicians are spending trillions of billionaire and millionaire and American business dollars of those  who do not exist and a zillion dollar economy that doesn't exist either.

(07-23-2020, 04:50 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: CNN has Trump cancelling the Jacksonville Florida part of the Republican convention.  He claims the time is just not right for a large indoor group of people packed close together.  

Well, duh...

(07-23-2020, 01:12 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-22-2020, 06:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The National Guard was not needed to stop a few youths from throwing a firework or painting graffiti. That's all they were doing until Trump's goons showed up.

There's no-one better to quote than MLK. Disregarding what he says makes you look like.....
because you have forgotten what the true greatness of America IS.

I know, it's all Trumps fault as usual. I doubt Trump would stick his neck out over something minor. So, why doesn't the governor send in the national guard like he should and has the authority to do right now instead of doing nothing as usual and pointing his finger and blaming Trump. Why do Democrats act like teenage boys and girls? I'll give them credit they're all pretty much equal.  As I've mentioned before, I have a close friend who gave up on the Democratic party and there are about twenty million or so Democratic voters like him these days. You're not going to hear anything from them until November. Like I said, this is going to boil down to Liberal Culture vs American Culture.

(07-23-2020, 11:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I agree, both sides value life. Life is a common value that both side share. So, what all goes into life (peoples lives) these days? I assume that you and I have much different lives. Me, I own a business and I have a family to support which requires a lot of time and effort on my behalf. I'm out there working and interacting with people every day with the exception of typical slow times of the year and occasional opportunities to take a breather and catch up on paperwork or spend time doing this during patches of mild weather like now.

As a software guy, I had a small fixed group of team members that I had to interact with rather than clients which you deal with for a brief time then might not see again for quite a while.  Quite different in a way.  I got to know better a handful of people who were similar to me.

(07-23-2020, 12:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Our governor spent more time bouncing between his constituencies and pleasing his constituencies than he spent worrying about the impacts on the lives of working people and small business's and so forth. You know what, the more I get to know the Democrats, the more I can't stand the Democrats. To be honest, by the time we get out of this financial mess, we are going to be in debt up to our eye balls if not over our head. Bob, the writing is on the wall. The United States as we know it, is not coming out this crisis the way it is today. We both agree on that. If you're lucky, you'll be dead before the shit hits the fan. Now, you can stick with selling/playing liberal kumbaya, love and peace, live and let live and continue supporting liberal peacekeepers for Democratic presidents whose main purpose is to keep an old party that's half rotten together. Now, you may not be in the rotten half of the party. You too seem like a decent level headed person at times too. You worked for what you have and stashed away as much as you could to set yourself up for retirement which explains the reason why the economy doesn't seem to matter to you at this point. You may have flirted with Marxism but you didn't stick with Marxism and embraced the American way. I'll make you a deal. You keep the crazy liberal comments to yourself, I'll keep the comments about future violence to myself. One other thing relating to the violence that I speak of, it's not an empty threat, it's a real threat that at least wise enough to know where the border was between blue and red. I'm going to share some real life information with you, the looters and rioters stopped a few miles from my home because there was a heavily armed group of residents who were waiting for them. I had neighborhood duty. Like I said, I believe the American people are mainly ahead of the people running Washington, DC.

I agree that many politicians serve the elites rather than the people who elect them.  I see the Republicans as being slightly worse that way, but both parties are in it.

I still do not recognize myself or the other blues I know in how you describe them.  You persist in creating wild strawmen, the easier to not have to confront the real motives of your opposition and keep your imaginings alive.  To the extent that you keep preaching bogus information, I will likely enough keep countering it.

Armed neighborhood watches are a good supplement to the racist violent police who are more interested in going after protestors than enforcing the law.  I would clearly prefer that vigilante justice were not necessary, that the police would do their jobs, but as long as they keep the racist violent approach to the community, the vigilante groups will be necessary.

The old unraveling approach took the benefits of increased production efficiency, steered to much of the profits into a huge wealth difference between the elites and the working people, froze the length of the work week and retirement age, minimized things like benefits and labor unions which attempted to steer wages towards the working man, minimized domestic spending aimed at helping the working man and focused on the manufacture of luxuries.  I would think all this will have to be rethought.  The elitism and racism of the Republican Party does not make me think they are likely to be the ones to do the rethinking.

Your mind set is locked into denying this, that the Democrats are the ones who are closer to the working man than the elites.  As a result, you create bogus Democratic motivations which as a blue leaning guy I do not recognize.  They do not represent what I really perceive and value.  Repeatedly pointing this out seems to not effect you.  I am persistent too, though.

(07-23-2020, 06:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I would not totally discount the hidden vote in America for the right-wing side of the culture war. Voters did come out of the woodwork to vote for Trump in 2016 and thereby shift the national popular vote about 2 points from where the pre-election polls indicated, from 4% + Democratic to 2% + Democratic. This happened especially in Florida and the Rust Belt northern tier of swing states.

But it will only take a shift of 1 or 2 % this time to shift 4 of these states Democratic again. Florida now favors Biden by 7 points, Wisconsin by 6, Michigan by almost 8, and Pennsylvania by 6 and a half. Even in Ohio Biden now leads by 2 points. Biden is a stronger candidate than Hillary was, in spite of his age.

Last time, Trump's appeal to voters in these 5 states was not mainly cultural. He ran well-produced ads in the Rust Belt swing states that appealed to the working class that was suffering in those states. His promise to end free trade was very appealing to workers in the declining industrial small towns and small cities in those states. He also sold them on the idea, the way Reagan did, that his trickle-down policies would stoke the economy. To some extent, his tax cuts kept the economic recovery begun by Obama going. But in truth, the economy in Trump's term was not better than during Obama's second term. Trickle-down economics, tariffs, and stopping immigration are what Trump promised. It's reasonable to suppose that Trump did not quite deliver on these. Free trade is about the same as what it was before, and immigration was never a real economic problem in these states to begin with. Trickle-down doesn't trickle.

So Trump's attempt now to appeal to those who reject removal of confederate statues and renaming bases and his anti-immigration policy may not be enough to offset the now-failing economy due to his failure to lead on covid. He may be delivering on culture-war symbols, and gaining some support by stoking fears of non-existent riots and temporary crime waves and blaming them on left-wing radicals and anti-police protesters. But denial of the right to protest may not be what the swing voters want, and the killing of unarmed black people by police has increased concern among whites for better race relations and police reform, and Trump trails Biden 2-1 on that issue. The fear he preys upon may not be greater than the real fear due to an out-of-control pandemic about which Trump appears helpless and in denial.

(07-24-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:  Bob, my mind isn't locked and  I don't live in a state of denial either. We know longer trust or  believe in each other. So, what else is new?

(07-24-2020, 01:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 06:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I would not totally discount the hidden vote in America for the right-wing side of the culture war. Voters did come out of the woodwork to vote for Trump in 2016 and thereby shift the national popular vote about 2 points from where the pre-election polls indicated, from 4% + Democratic to 2% + Democratic. This happened especially in Florida and the Rust Belt northern tier of swing states.

But it will only take a shift of 1 or 2 % this time to shift 4 of these states Democratic again. Florida now favors Biden by 7 points, Wisconsin by 6, Michigan by almost 8, and Pennsylvania by 6 and a half. Even in Ohio Biden now leads by 2 points. Biden is a stronger candidate than Hillary was, in spite of his age.

Last time, Trump's appeal to voters in these 5 states was not mainly cultural. He ran well-produced ads in the Rust Belt swing states that appealed to the working class that was suffering in those states. His promise to end free trade was very appealing to workers in the declining industrial small towns and small cities in those states. He also sold them on the idea, the way Reagan did, that his trickle-down policies would stoke the economy. To some extent, his tax cuts kept the economic recovery begun by Obama going. But in truth, the economy in Trump's term was not better than during Obama's second term. Trickle-down economics, tariffs, and stopping immigration are what Trump promised. It's reasonable to suppose that Trump did not quite deliver on these. Free trade is about the same as what it was before, and immigration was never a real economic problem in these states to begin with. Trickle-down doesn't trickle.

So Trump's attempt now to appeal to those who reject removal of confederate statues and renaming bases and his anti-immigration policy may not be enough to offset the now-failing economy due to his failure to lead on covid. He may be delivering on culture-war symbols, and gaining some support by stoking fears of non-existent riots and temporary crime waves and blaming them on left-wing radicals and anti-police protesters. But denial of the right to protest may not be what the swing voters want, and the killing of unarmed black people by police has increased concern among whites for better race relations and police reform, and Trump trails Biden 2-1 on that issue. The fear he preys upon may not be greater than the real fear due to an out-of-control pandemic about which Trump appears helpless and in denial.

Well, illegal immigration is an economic problem. Why is an illegal immigrant doing the work of a poor American reliant upon welfare or a lazy couch potato should be doing? Granted, we probably aren't paying for the lazy liberal couch potato yet. The Obama recovery was a slow recovery that didn't recover very much over 8 years. So, how far was Clinton up in the polls the day before the election? As far as Biden, I've seen enough of Biden to know that he's not up for the task that lays ahead? My buddy who has been a loyal Democrat since he's been old enough to vote is voting for Trump. As far as the polls, I think you're seeing all the liberal hype and lack of seeing Biden in action is being reflected in the polls right now.

(07-23-2020, 04:49 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

The mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark, mark and claim  territory, wreck/destroy peoples property, threaten and kill  people too. It would be nice if they were just dogs. Unfortunately, the dogs are humans with rights and legal protections who know the legal  restrictions pertaining to law  enforcement. I met one at a Bush rally. Can you imagine, a Liberal kid from some place with no sense of respect or values of his own  feeling free to pick on and intimidate    an elderly woman who happened to be a retired nurse about your age  and    my mother.   Yes, I'm familiar with the shit that Liberal culture produces and sends to Democratic cities/strong holds  to aggravate American culture. Hint: They didn't have a political identity back then. I assume Liberal culture is buying into its own hype and making believers of themselves too. I keep telling you that Liberal culture is pretty much on it's own at this point.

According to the locals, including the authorities among others, The protests were relatively small, noisy and peaceful.  It only got bad once the stormtroopers arrived and start acting the part. As far as your hurt feelings, understand that the protests are a faint shadow of the bad things that have happened to Black and Native American people in the past and present. If it made you uncomfortable, then that was the purpose.  No one, including your retired nurse, has special agency to float above the crowd.  On the other hand, some few individuals have gotten WAY out of hand, but the only protestor who has killed anyone is the guy in Charlottesville who ran down counter protestors with his car, and he's a skinhead.

Classic-Xer Wrote:I listened to a real liberal (an American lefty who happened to be a black middle aged woman ) associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in Las Vegas. As old Biden would say, she seemed decent, articulate and appealing to main stream middle Americans like me which must have been rare for Democratic black people back  in 08'. She seemed pretty level headed or down home as we say  and she  seemed like an straight shooter too. According to her, Congress has a very narrow window of opportunity to get something decent (practical and mutually beneficial) passed before something mind blowing occurs and window is closed for along time. Do you know what I think, I think she knows that I'm right about America because she's hearing what we (real Americans) are saying and she knows we aren't bluffing or posting empty threats and or showing any signs of clinging to or sticking with old  laurels associated with the past. To be blunt, the politicians are spending trillions of billionaire and millionaire and American business dollars of those  who do not exist and a zillion dollar economy that doesn't exist either.

(07-24-2020, 03:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:  Bob, my mind isn't locked and  I don't live in a state of denial either. We know longer trust or  believe in each other. So, what else is new?

You keep spouting a false set of motivations that you attribute to Democrats to justify your belief set.  I don't recognize these motivations in myself or the other liberals I know.  You do this in a way that I believe your mind is locked and in a state of denial.

What can I say?

(07-24-2020, 01:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What can you say at this point? I was watching/listening to an informative discussion by a group of different people on Fox today. The Fox show is called Outnumbered in case you'd care to watch. The discussion was about the current state that America is in right now. Now keep in mind, the discussion was between a group of various cable news people who live and work in the Washington Belt Way. The discussion was between a member of CPAC, a couple of economic analysts/ experts, a main stream American show host and a Democratic political strategist. The show host who I highly respect as a person that you would never think that I would respect based on your beliefs, said something that resonated with me as the others were acknowledging is prime for what the Liberal's want so to speak. In other words, they acknowledged we are 4T and the Liberal's have the bulk of the advantage right now. What she said that resonated with me and reminded the three about the culture that they're related too and their heritage.  She took over and she said to them, we are Americans and Americans know how to fight there way out of things. You gotta love that about America.