(07-24-2020, 01:04 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 04:49 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 09:44 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, the mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark.  The citizens of Portland seem OK with that, so why is it Trump's business how loud they get?  Oh yeah, there's an election coming, his numbers are in the tank, and he needs fear-mongering because it's all he's got.  Next he'll try Chicago and Kansas City because they are being overrun by guns (I wonder why that is   ). 

It's all street theater with real lives at stake -- not his, of course. Cadet Bone Spurs knows how to avoid a fight where he has to actually, you know, participate!

The mayor and governor let noisy dogs bark, mark and claim  territory, wreck/destroy peoples property, threaten and kill  people too. It would be nice if they were just dogs. Unfortunately, the dogs are humans with rights and legal protections who know the legal  restrictions pertaining to law  enforcement. I met one at a Bush rally. Can you imagine, a Liberal kid from some place with no sense of respect or values of his own  feeling free to pick on and intimidate    an elderly woman who happened to be a retired nurse about your age  and    my mother.   Yes, I'm familiar with the shit that Liberal culture produces and sends to Democratic cities/strong holds  to aggravate American culture. Hint: They didn't have a political identity back then. I assume Liberal culture is buying into its own hype and making believers of themselves too. I keep telling you that Liberal culture is pretty much on it's own at this point.

According to the locals, including the authorities among others, The protests were relatively small, noisy and peaceful.  It only got bad once the stormtroopers arrived and start acting the part. As far as your hurt feelings, understand that the protests are a faint shadow of the bad things that have happened to Black and Native American people in the past and present. If it made you uncomfortable, then that was the purpose.  No one, including your retired nurse, has special agency to float above the crowd.  On the other hand, some few individuals have gotten WAY out of hand, but the only protestor who has killed anyone is the guy in Charlottesville who ran down counter protestors with his car, and he's a skinhead.

We have never seen this sort of behavior by federal law enforcement before. It has typically been state and local police that have misbehaved.  Federal law enforcement has typically enforced federal law on federal property, investigated crimes committed by and against federal employees (including members of the Armed Services) in the performance of their duties; using the mail or interstate commerce (I would guess that lots of people in a federal penitentiary are there for mail fraud, bank fraud, or wire fraud because many fraudulent activities involve the use of the mail, the 'wires', or the banks -- with the consent of telecommunications companies and the financial institutions to such laws because fraudulent activities are bad business for them); violation of federal regulations in industry; and of course being a criminal fugitive especially if interstate flight to avoid prosecution. If you ever remember the TV show The FBI you will remember that the typical Bad Guy was charged with serious offenses typically against state law and "interstate flight to avoid prosecution". The latter offense is the pretext for FBI pursuit, and the FBI usually drops that charge once the perpetrator is delivered to the state in which he committed a more serious crime such as murder, rape, arson, kidnapping, or armed robbery. 

Law enforcement by federal authorities has been limited on the assumption that states themselves can adequately determine what the crimes are and try and punish offenders. Most of us know the rules. Offending the sensibilities of the President is not a crime, as the First Amendment clearly shows... although this President acts as a blatant exception.  Mark my words: something is going to go terribly wrong with a serious injury or a death as the result of some unconstitutional exercise of force, and such an incident will potentially go to the US Supreme Court. 

A hint on the judgment: Chief Justice Roberts always lets precedent decide a case.           

Classic-Xer Wrote:I listened to a real liberal (an American lefty who happened to be a black middle aged woman ) associated with the Black Lives Matter movement in Las Vegas. As old Biden would say, she seemed decent, articulate and appealing to main stream middle Americans like me which must have been rare for Democratic black people back  in 08'. She seemed pretty level headed or down home as we say  and she  seemed like an straight shooter too. According to her, Congress has a very narrow window of opportunity to get something decent (practical and mutually beneficial) passed before something mind blowing occurs and window is closed for along time. Do you know what I think, I think she knows that I'm right about America because she's hearing what we (real Americans) are saying and she knows we aren't bluffing or posting empty threats and or showing any signs of clinging to or sticking with old  laurels associated with the past. To be blunt, the politicians are spending trillions of billionaire and millionaire and American business dollars of those  who do not exist and a zillion dollar economy that doesn't exist either.

I suspect she was warning folks like you that THEIR patience was running out, and rioting can be the result.  Note: she isn't going to riot, but young hotheads certainly might.  This all started in 1619.  After 400 years of waiting for fair treatment, expecting even more patience is unrealistic.

(07-24-2020, 01:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 01:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-23-2020, 06:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I would not totally discount the hidden vote in America for the right-wing side of the culture war. Voters did come out of the woodwork to vote for Trump in 2016 and thereby shift the national popular vote about 2 points from where the pre-election polls indicated, from 4% + Democratic to 2% + Democratic. This happened especially in Florida and the Rust Belt northern tier of swing states.

But it will only take a shift of 1 or 2 % this time to shift 4 of these states Democratic again. Florida now favors Biden by 7 points, Wisconsin by 6, Michigan by almost 8, and Pennsylvania by 6 and a half. Even in Ohio Biden now leads by 2 points. Biden is a stronger candidate than Hillary was, in spite of his age.

Last time, Trump's appeal to voters in these 5 states was not mainly cultural. He ran well-produced ads in the Rust Belt swing states that appealed to the working class that was suffering in those states. His promise to end free trade was very appealing to workers in the declining industrial small towns and small cities in those states. He also sold them on the idea, the way Reagan did, that his trickle-down policies would stoke the economy. To some extent, his tax cuts kept the economic recovery begun by Obama going. But in truth, the economy in Trump's term was not better than during Obama's second term. Trickle-down economics, tariffs, and stopping immigration are what Trump promised. It's reasonable to suppose that Trump did not quite deliver on these. Free trade is about the same as what it was before, and immigration was never a real economic problem in these states to begin with. Trickle-down doesn't trickle.

So Trump's attempt now to appeal to those who reject removal of confederate statues and renaming bases and his anti-immigration policy may not be enough to offset the now-failing economy due to his failure to lead on covid. He may be delivering on culture-war symbols, and gaining some support by stoking fears of non-existent riots and temporary crime waves and blaming them on left-wing radicals and anti-police protesters. But denial of the right to protest may not be what the swing voters want, and the killing of unarmed black people by police has increased concern among whites for better race relations and police reform, and Trump trails Biden 2-1 on that issue. The fear he preys upon may not be greater than the real fear due to an out-of-control pandemic about which Trump appears helpless and in denial.

Well, illegal immigration is an economic problem. Why is an illegal immigrant doing the work of a poor American reliant upon welfare or a lazy couch potato should be doing? Granted, we probably aren't paying for the lazy liberal couch potato yet. The Obama recovery was a slow recovery that didn't recover very much over 8 years. So, how far was Clinton up in the polls the day before the election? As far as Biden, I've seen enough of Biden to know that he's not up for the task that lays ahead? My buddy who has been a loyal Democrat since he's been old enough to vote is voting for Trump. As far as the polls, I think you're seeing all the liberal hype and lack of seeing Biden in action is being reflected in the polls right now.

You missed the point I was making. Immigrants are not moving in any numbers to Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. They go to Texas, California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Louisiana....

The poor illegal immigrant is not threatening your job or that of a middle class uneducated white guy. Poor illegal immigrants seeking asylum are not on welfare in any greater numbers than lazy white liberal couch potatoes or anyone else. Immigrants boost the economy by providing more workers, consumers and entrepreneurs. Poor immigrants take jobs that whites don't want, and bosses hire them because they can't find others.

Clinton was up 4% in the polls; she won the popular vote by 2%. The point is, Trump won those 3 Rust Belt states that made the difference by 1%. It won't take a big shift to send him back to Trump Tower. 

The Obama recovery was slow, but any good result that Trump got was due to what Obama did. You could give Trump credit for tax cuts, since that's all you Republicans want or care about, economically. But tax cuts don't make much difference anymore (not to mention piling up the national debt), and so Trump's term was not more prosperous than Obama's second term, although recovery was starting to be felt by more people in Trump's term until his mismanagement of covid.

Biden garbled words in the debates, but since then he has been strong. David Brooks interviewed him and said he was the same Biden as in the past. Trump is a mental case and is aging just as fast as Biden. Trump does not put out meaningful sentences. He has no principles, and as George Will said there isn't much crockery left in the china cabinet for him to break. It's funny though how Trump is still dumping on Biden for staying in his basement. It's just another hilarious example of how Trump misuses slogans to deceive the people. Nothing he ever says is true.

(07-25-2020, 05:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden bobbled words and couldn't keep his sentences straight and couldn't follow along or establish himself as the clear front runner. Dude, Biden is a political charity case and I seriously doubt Biden will be accepted as America's choice for President.

(07-25-2020, 02:35 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: On the other hand, if Trump were honest about himself...

that cognitive test is not an intelligence test. It tests mental deterioration characteristic of senility.

100... 93... 86... 79... I took such a test as a test for disability, and I counted down by sevens into the negative numbers.

(07-25-2020, 06:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 05:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden bobbled words and couldn't keep his sentences straight and couldn't follow along or establish himself as the clear front runner. Dude, Biden is a political charity case and I seriously doubt Biden will be accepted as America's choice for President.

He beats Trump hands down.  If the Lincoln Project keeps doing the attack ads, Biden can keep concentrating on being the grandfather type who has favored responsibility while following the rules.  Will he go far enough?  Will he listen to the more radical voices that are looking do do more?  That, I don't know, but myself and it seems like most of the country are ready to find out.

(07-25-2020, 06:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 02:35 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: On the other hand, if Trump were honest about himself...

that cognitive test is not an intelligence test. It tests mental deterioration characteristic of senility.

100... 93... 86... 79... I took such a test as a test for disability, and I counted down by sevens into the negative numbers.

You're right, not knowing which woman is standing on which side of you and presenting your sister as your wife represents a clear sign of loss cognitive ability and awareness. I've seen it like most middle aged people with older parents or grand parents these days. I don't question your intelligence. I question your common sense and awareness.

(07-25-2020, 06:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 06:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 05:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Biden bobbled words and couldn't keep his sentences straight and couldn't follow along or establish himself as the clear front runner. Dude, Biden is a political charity case and I seriously doubt Biden will be accepted as America's choice for President.

He beats Trump hands down.  If the Lincoln Project keeps doing the attack ads, Biden can keep concentrating on being the grandfather type who has favored responsibility while following the rules.  Will he go far enough?  Will he listen to the more radical voices that are looking do do more?  That, I don't know, but myself and it seems like most of the country are ready to find out.

Biden beats him hands down at what? You do know that running for President wasn't really his idea? Biden is running to save the Democratic party and that's it.

(07-25-2020, 08:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I expect his motive is more saving America.  If it were just the Democratic Party at risk, he would likely let another candidate take it.  With Trump, he was in a position to do what is necessary.

(07-26-2020, 04:36 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 08:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I expect his motive is more saving America.  If it were just the Democratic Party at risk, he would likely let another candidate take it.  With Trump, he was in a position to do what is necessary.

America is fine. The Democratic party is more at risk of falling apart. I think its pretty clear that the elites had no faith in any of the other candidates which why Biden had to be coaxed out of retirement to unify and save the Democratic party from imminent destruction.

(07-26-2020, 04:36 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 08:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I expect his motive is more saving America.  If it were just the Democratic Party at risk, he would likely let another candidate take it.  With Trump, he was in a position to do what is necessary.

America is fine. The Democratic party is more at risk of falling apart. I think its pretty clear that the elites had no faith in any of the other candidates which why Biden had to be coaxed out of retirement to unify and save the Democratic party from imminent destruction.

(07-26-2020, 11:30 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. America will be fine after it divests itself of Donald Trump as a wannabe-despot. 

2. It looks more as if the Republican Party has an internal rift between traditional norms in politics (checks and balances, separation of powers, objective reality, and rejection of demagogic anti-intellectualism) and Donald Trump. On these matters one wing of the Republican Party has much in common with the mainstream of the Democratic Party now that we Democrats found something that we absolutely had to defend.
 
3. Less flawed than the others? That is a normal criterion for political victories in promary and general elections. 

4. In view of the actuarial concerns that I would legitimately have with anyone crossing 80 as President I hope that Joe Biden well chooses a Vice President.

(07-26-2020, 03:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Will it, are you sure about that? Are you really sure a weak Democratic leader is what America thinks/feels it needs or prefers to have right now? So, where are the more trustworthy American Democrats these days? I don't see any of them around these days. I take that back, I saw one in Congress who abstained and refused to go along with the liberal Democrats (vote against her country). PB, you are on the other side( the anti-American side) because that's the side you chose to be on for better or worse until the day you die.

(07-26-2020, 04:50 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 04:36 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 08:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I expect his motive is more saving America.  If it were just the Democratic Party at risk, he would likely let another candidate take it.  With Trump, he was in a position to do what is necessary.

America is fine. The Democratic party is more at risk of falling apart. I think its pretty clear that the elites had no faith in any of the other candidates which why Biden had to be coaxed out of retirement to unify and save the Democratic party from imminent destruction.

It is the old values that are rejected and fall apart in a crisis heart.  Looks no different this time.

(07-26-2020, 03:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 03:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Will it, are you sure about that? Are you really sure a weak Democratic leader is what America thinks/feels it needs or prefers to have right now? So, where are the more trustworthy American Democrats these days? I don't see any of them around these days. I take that back, I saw one in Congress who abstained and refused to go along with the liberal Democrats (vote against her country). PB, you are on the other side( the anti-American side) because that's the side you chose to be on for better or worse until the day you die.

It seems the Republican side has become the side of corruption, violence, and bypassing Constitutional checks and balances.  I would say the red leaning folks would be that way until they die, but a good number are becoming blue for a time at least.

(07-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't represent the old Marxist laden Democratic values.

(07-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I represent traditional American values that have withstood the tests of time. American culture itself is much stronger, much larger and much more powerful than it was back at the turn of the last century. I've been trying to tell you that for the last fifteen years but you don't want to listen.

(07-26-2020, 04:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Where is your head at? The Republican side doesn't represent/control Chicago or Minneapolis or New York City and so on.

(07-26-2020, 04:51 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: But if you stand with Trump you are opposing the traditional American values.  A good number of your Americans have recognized this and decided to switch sides for an election or two.  I could see the Lincoln Project putting the conservative voters back together without the racist, elitist or corruption elements.  Such folks would make an honorable opposition, at least after the Democrats go beyond the point of deminising returns, which they inevitably will.

But if you posture with Trump's violence, ignoring checks and balance and selfishness, that isn't America.  Your calling it American will not make it so.  Other reds have seen it.  I don't think you love reality more than your ideology, so as of yet you have not.  You may choose not to see it.  It is up to you.

(07-26-2020, 04:51 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't represent the old Marxist laden Democratic values.

No one does.  This is a straw man creation created mostly from the red.  They cannot argue with the blue values, so they make up a perspective they can argue with.  I don't recognize myself or any other blue person in them.  You are missing things entirely.

(07-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I represent traditional American values that have withstood the tests of time. American culture itself is much stronger, much larger and much more powerful than it was back at the turn of the last century. I've been trying to tell you that for the last fifteen years but you don't want to listen.

You seem to be still sticking with Trump.  He stands for corruption, bypassing the Constitutional checks and balances, violence, killing Americans and Trump.  The election is essentially a referendum on how well he has done, and the broad consensus is badly.

Now when you speak for yourself, I have some sympathy.  Some.  The Republican push for small government, shunning science and ignoring progress have in my opinion gone far beyond the point of diminishing returns.  Well, so did the progressive attempt to solve everything by throwing money at it.  The cycles are real.  No matter which extreme you stand on you are apt to see your politicians overdo it.  The leaders of both sides are apt to take the approach that got them power too far.  I anticipate that the time will come again someday when the progressives go too far, but not soon.  Next unraveling, perhaps.  

But if you stand with Trump you are opposing the traditional American values.  A good number of your Americans have recognized this and decided to switch sides for an election or two.  I could see the Lincoln Project putting the conservative voters back together without the racist, elitist or corruption elements.  Such folks would make an honorable opposition, at least after the Democrats go beyond the point of diminishing returns, which they inevitably will.

But if you posture with Trump's violence, ignoring checks and balance and selfishness, that isn't America.  Your calling it American will not make it so.  Other reds have seen it.  I don't think you love reality more than your ideology, so as of yet you have not.  You may choose not to see it.  It is up to you.

(07-26-2020, 04:05 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 04:50 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-26-2020, 04:36 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(07-25-2020, 08:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I expect his motive is more saving America.  If it were just the Democratic Party at risk, he would likely let another candidate take it.  With Trump, he was in a position to do what is necessary.

America is fine. The Democratic party is more at risk of falling apart. I think its pretty clear that the elites had no faith in any of the other candidates which why Biden had to be coaxed out of retirement to unify and save the Democratic party from imminent destruction.

It is the old values that are rejected and fall apart in a crisis heart.  Looks no different this time.

I don't represent the old Marxist laden Democratic values. I represent traditional American values that have withstood the tests of time. American culture itself is much stronger, much larger and much more powerful than it was back at the turn of the last century. I've been trying to tell you that for the last fifteen years but you don't want to listen. I hate to tell you this, but we could turn blue America upside down without the government and starve blue America and eliminate the blue courts and slaughter the blue tax collectors and the blue law enforcement that have the power to seize property. Do you think Americans are going to have a problem with pretty women like AOC being executed by an American? You better wake up and recognize the position that Democrats are in these days? You won't find an American who is hooked on free lunches or free school supplies or free government housing or free health insurance or free college tuition or special rules or special treatment or positions relating more to their race or gender or sexual preference on the American side today. The gay American is nothing more than an American on the American side today. That's where we are at and plan to stay through hell and high water as Democratic groups are left to settle things and fight it out among themselves like the old days so to speak.