(08-14-2020, 08:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 03:49 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You don't seem to be holding your own too well. But whatever you say.

Really? You just said that you admire my ability to continue taking on you and a group of liberals without help from other conservatives.

(08-14-2020, 10:11 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 07:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-13-2020, 02:00 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Maybe one month of a lock-down would have been adequate. 

Oh, it most likely won't kill you? Would you ride with a drunk driver? Would you use street drugs? Would you drive a car at a speed over 100 mph on the open road? Would you take the risk of a rattlesnake bite? If you are going to take inordinate risk, then it had better be for some cause undeniably good such as combat on behalf of your country. 

People on welfare are obliged to seek work and take work available in many places even if the work is odious and a poor fit for the person. 

You are a fool. You think you represent the common man, but you loyally serve people who believe that no human suffering can be in excess so long as it serves those elites. Furthermore you cannot recognize that people as American as you are are fully American.

Maybe??? Maybe not??? Maybe a month or two or three or maybe even a year or maybe even two or three years to be completely safe??? Well, we are going to see the negative results of months of Democratic maybe's and absolutely not with the exception of our own or those politically associated with us.

A month is a little quick.  Two is a little high.

First you have to go with the metrics, you have to go with the test results.  When you are preventing tests as Trump did to minimize the bad results, you are sort of stuck.

But most nations did test and did isolate and thus did flatten the curve.  Trump didn't.  I might be curious as to how long the various successful countries did stay shut down.  The question as to how long you have to shut down on average is likely answerable by now.

The problem was with the happy talk.  A significant number of people refused to shut down as the political leader they were committed to discouraged it.  If you do not shut down completely and all states at once, the shutdown has to last longer to achieve results.  That is why the lack of a nation wide strategy hurts.

(08-14-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 07:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything.

I would say the last civil war the rural racist faction lost just about everything.  The side for democracy, human rights and equality came out ahead.  The Republicans switched and picked up the racist vote around Nixon’s time, just as whey went from isolationists to strong on defense world policemen.  Parties flip flop on various issues.  If you don’t want to seem ignorant,  you learn these things.  You can’t take credit for Lincoln anymore.

(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days.

Not the entire right.  Biden picked up quite a few, so that’s one faction.  There is the Tea Party base which has become Trump’s base and the establishment which doesn’t dare stand against him.  It seems we have two years at least to see how the Republicans come out of the COVID deaths and Black Lives Matter values change.  I think it will be like previous 4Ts with the old racist and elitist biases purged form the main line conservatives, but it has to happen.

I'm sorry but I am still associated with the party of Lincoln and the USA.

No, you are associated with the party of John Breckinridge, Jefferson Davis and the CSA.

(08-14-2020, 11:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Two or three months of economic hardship would be a suitable cost for saving, so far, 170 thousand deaths. Just under 406,000 Americans died of war-related causes in World War II, and that was over three years. Americans underwent great hardships to prevent an Axis victory, something that many European and Asian countries got to experience a taste of. We had a near-shutdown in Michigan and we got some stability. There was no place to go except to drive-up windows, gas stations, and basically food stores.  It was a lonely, boring, frustrating time. To fiond entertainment one had to rely upon oneself. But just think of how awful life is in a ventilator. 

Nobody can find any noble purpose in 170 thousand deaths. We are not overthrowing the yoke of a despotic King. We are not emancipating slaves. We are not making the world safe for democracy or thwarting genocide. 

We needed some flexibility on the time, which would have been easier if we had some genuine leadership at the apex of power instead of... but to go further I repeat myself.  

We are in a Crisis, and this epidemic is a Crisis because it will shake the assumptions that people have gotten if they are even elementary-level children.

(08-14-2020, 11:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 08:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 03:49 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: You don't seem to be holding your own too well. But whatever you say.

Really? You just said that you admire my ability to continue taking on you and a group of liberals without help from other conservatives.

Go for it. You never win, but you keep taking us on

(08-15-2020, 02:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 11:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Two or three months of economic hardship would be a suitable cost for saving, so far, 170 thousand deaths. Just under 406,000 Americans died of war-related causes in World War II, and that was over three years. Americans underwent great hardships to prevent an Axis victory, something that many European and Asian countries got to experience a taste of. We had a near-shutdown in Michigan and we got some stability. There was no place to go except to drive-up windows, gas stations, and basically food stores.  It was a lonely, boring, frustrating time. To fiond entertainment one had to rely upon oneself. But just think of how awful life is in a ventilator. 

Nobody can find any noble purpose in 170 thousand deaths. We are not overthrowing the yoke of a despotic King. We are not emancipating slaves. We are not making the world safe for democracy or thwarting genocide. 

We needed some flexibility on the time, which would have been easier if we had some genuine leadership at the apex of power instead of... but to go further I repeat myself.  

We are in a Crisis, and this epidemic is a Crisis because it will shake the assumptions that people have gotten if they are even elementary-level children.

Nope, we are dealing with a foreign bug that a Chinese Communist State failed to isolate and contain and inform us and the world about early on.

(08-15-2020, 02:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 11:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 07:38 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 05:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I recall, the Democratic group that started the last Civil War with America lost just about everything.

I would say the last civil war the rural racist faction lost just about everything.  The side for democracy, human rights and equality came out ahead.  The Republicans switched and picked up the racist vote around Nixon’s time, just as whey went from isolationists to strong on defense world policemen.  Parties flip flop on various issues.  If you don’t want to seem ignorant,  you learn these things.  You can’t take credit for Lincoln anymore.

(08-14-2020, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I've said, Trump represents the entire American right these days.

Not the entire right.  Biden picked up quite a few, so that’s one faction.  There is the Tea Party base which has become Trump’s base and the establishment which doesn’t dare stand against him.  It seems we have two years at least to see how the Republicans come out of the COVID deaths and Black Lives Matter values change.  I think it will be like previous 4Ts with the old racist and elitist biases purged form the main line conservatives, but it has to happen.

I'm sorry but I am still associated with the party of Lincoln and the USA.

No, you are associated with the party of John Breckinridge, Jefferson Davis and the CSA.

The Democrats are still into racism and every time you use it LIKE YOU DO, you prove it and show everyone that racism is still viewed as valuable by the Democratic party these days.

(08-15-2020, 02:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-14-2020, 11:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Two or three months of economic hardship would be a suitable cost for saving, so far, 170 thousand deaths. Just under 406,000 Americans died of war-related causes in World War II, and that was over three years. Americans underwent great hardships to prevent an Axis victory, something that many European and Asian countries got to experience a taste of. We had a near-shutdown in Michigan and we got some stability. There was no place to go except to drive-up windows, gas stations, and basically food stores.  It was a lonely, boring, frustrating time. To find entertainment one had to rely upon oneself. But just think of how awful life is in a ventilator. 

Nobody can find any noble purpose in 170 thousand deaths. We are not overthrowing the yoke of a despotic King. We are not emancipating slaves. We are not making the world safe for democracy or thwarting genocide. 

We needed some flexibility on the time, which would have been easier if we had some genuine leadership at the apex of power instead of... but to go further I repeat myself.  

We are in a Crisis, and this epidemic is a Crisis because it will shake the assumptions that people have gotten if they are even elementary-level children.

Nope, we are dealing with a foreign bug that a Chinese Communist State failed to isolate and contain and inform us and the world about early on.

(08-15-2020, 03:45 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I hope the non-white races know forever which party stood up for their rights, and all sensible white people remember which party stands up for their rights too, and for the knowledge that when rights are denied to anyone of any race, they are denied to everyone.

And I hope we all remember which party has dedicated itself to taking those rights away.

(08-15-2020, 02:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Nope, we are dealing with a foreign bug that a Chinese Communist State failed to isolate and contain and inform us and the world about early on.

(08-15-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The deaths are heavily American. It is our problem now. Some State governors did a good job of meeting the disease, but our President got in the way. China closed off the afflicted area, but Trump made the response largely a state option. The private sector, both for-profit and not-for profit (in the latter, such includes the Roman Catholic Church and mainline Protestant denominations) met their tasks well. The NHL and NBA ended their seasons early. Lessons from other countries were good warnings. Religious processions were particularly infamous for spreading the virus because those often attract sick people. Such explains Italy and Iran... it is telling that Saudi Arabia cancelled the Hajj. 

There have been spreader events such as some megachurch services in which the hack pastor tells people that God is enough to save people from the virus, protests against the lockdowns, funerals, and even a Trump rally (most infamously in Tulsa. Herman Cain got infected there and eventually died). Most recent of dumb events to attend was the big motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota. You can be sure that there will be nothing of the kind in Sturgis, Michigan, which typically has events that piggyback on that one. Let's put it this way... if you will be in the market for a good late-model Harley-Davidson motorcycle in a few months, plenty will be available at unusually modest prices because their owners went to the big motorcycle convention. Worse, they will have transmitted COVID-19 to people who had nothing to do with the big motorcycle rally.  

It's well past time to blame the People's Republic of China. We were doing much wrong before COVID-19 struck, fostering an economic order that seems to maximize economic inequality on behalf of elites as arrogant as feudal lords of the late-medieval and early-modern era authorizing news media to sell out to commercial interests while pretending to be objective purveyors of information, debasing public K-12 education into training for dead-end jobs in which seemingly only people with borderline retardation could be happy. The super-rich seemingly have no responsibility unless they kill (Phil Specter) or rape (Weinstein, Epstein, and Cosby, which is not a law firm), and the rest of us are responsible to the super-rich. 

We were told that the key to prosperity was that if we would suffer for the elites through lower wages, higher rents, more monopolization, easier availability of propaganda on behalf of pure plutocracy, and support of the political lackeys of the Master Class, then we too would prosper. If Robert Heinlein related that the proper image of the Soviet Union was of a drunk, the proper image of America might now be a homeless person. A trend that began about forty years ago has reached its preposterous conclusion -- and great tragedy.

(08-15-2020, 02:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: We aren't like China or the European nations or the other Asian nations or the Latino and Hispanic nations or the Middle Eastern nations. You seem to be upset that Trump stuck with the American way and delegated authority to the states vs the Chinese way. Once again, you tell me your not communist but show me that you're open to the communist way when at risk. Well, we're different than you. We prefer the American way and are willing to accept risk and accept some losses to keep Americans working and keep the American system functioning as Democrats do what Democrats do during election years which is mainly placing their needs above everyone else's and not caring about people who don't support them politically. Well, they're shooting themselves in foot without knowing/realizing their shooting themselves in the foot.

(08-15-2020, 02:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-15-2020, 02:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Nope, we are dealing with a foreign bug that a Chinese Communist State failed to isolate and contain and inform us and the world about early on.

It is clear that both the CCP and Trump made mistakes.  No reason to believe more than one person or group can make a mistake.  Yes, their political opponents have tried to name COVID after people who made mistakes.  They want to hide or deflect attention from their own mistakes.  Myself, there seems to be enough blame to distribute it around.

But as of August 14, the US lost 170,415.  If you believe the China numbers, they lost 4,634.  While I suspect both are significantly under reported, it gives some idea of who made the larger mistake regarding the Trump Flu.

(08-15-2020, 03:06 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Some political appointees at the top of the CDC have resigned.  Not loyal enough?  Not united enough in their message?  Does this mean Trump will try to further gag the professionals in order to push his political happy talk?

CNN reports.

(08-15-2020, 03:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Who keeps making the big mistake of calling it the Trump Flu or Trump's virus during a crucial time in American history when Americans know where the fucking virus came from and know who to blame?

(08-15-2020, 03:27 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob, if the Chinese have a problem with a portion of their herd, the Chinese can test and  separate the portion of the herd with the problem and kill it and report the truth as far as its losses to the UN. Fortunately, we don't live there and have a government with the same power. Sure it would be nice to have at times in our dreams but not in real life.

(08-15-2020, 03:46 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-15-2020, 03:06 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Some political appointees at the top of the CDC have resigned.  Not loyal enough?  Not united enough in their message?  Does this mean Trump will try to further gag the professionals in order to push his political happy talk?

CNN reports.

He's listening to the real medical experts on Fox who are telling him to get rid of the political appointee's and replace them with real doctors and medical experts who have been directly involved with the treating and the results the entire time. In other words, its time to get rid of the government related people and bring in the people who have been doing  it for a living.

(08-15-2020, 02:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-15-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The deaths are heavily American. It is our problem now. Some State governors did a good job of meeting the disease, but our President got in the way. China closed off the afflicted area, but Trump made the response largely a state option. The private sector, both for-profit and not-for profit (in the latter, such includes the Roman Catholic Church and mainline Protestant denominations) met their tasks well. The NHL and NBA ended their seasons early. Lessons from other countries were good warnings. Religious processions were particularly infamous for spreading the virus because those often attract sick people. Such explains Italy and Iran... it is telling that Saudi Arabia cancelled the Hajj. 

There have been spreader events such as some megachurch services in which the hack pastor tells people that God is enough to save people from the virus, protests against the lockdowns, funerals, and even a Trump rally (most infamously in Tulsa. Herman Cain got infected there and eventually died). Most recent of dumb events to attend was the big motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota. You can be sure that there will be nothing of the kind in Sturgis, Michigan, which typically has events that piggyback on that one. Let's put it this way... if you will be in the market for a good late-model Harley-Davidson motorcycle in a few months, plenty will be available at unusually modest prices because their owners went to the big motorcycle convention. Worse, they will have transmitted COVID-19 to people who had nothing to do with the big motorcycle rally.  

It's well past time to blame the People's Republic of China. We were doing much wrong before COVID-19 struck, fostering an economic order that seems to maximize economic inequality on behalf of elites as arrogant as feudal lords of the late-medieval and early-modern era authorizing news media to sell out to commercial interests while pretending to be objective purveyors of information, debasing public K-12 education into training for dead-end jobs in which seemingly only people with borderline retardation could be happy. The super-rich seemingly have no responsibility unless they kill (Phil Specter) or rape (Weinstein, Epstein, and Cosby, which is not a law firm), and the rest of us are responsible to the super-rich. 

We were told that the key to prosperity was that if we would suffer for the elites through lower wages, higher rents, more monopolization, easier availability of propaganda on behalf of pure plutocracy, and support of the political lackeys of the Master Class, then we too would prosper. If Robert Heinlein related that the proper image of the Soviet Union was of a drunk, the proper image of America might now be a homeless person. A trend that began about forty years ago has reached its preposterous conclusion -- and great tragedy.

We aren't like China or the European nations or the other Asian nations or the Latino and Hispanic nations or the Middle Eastern nations. You seem to be upset that Trump stuck with the American way and delegated authority to the states vs the Chinese way. Once again, you tell me your not communist but show me that you're open to the communist way when at risk. Well, we're different than you. We prefer the American way and are willing to accept risk and accept some losses to keep Americans working and keep the American system functioning as Democrats do what Democrats do during election years which is mainly placing their needs above everyone else's and not caring about people who don't support them politically. Well, they're shooting themselves in foot without knowing/realizing their shooting themselves in the foot.

(08-15-2020, 03:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Agreed, an authoritarian government could act more decisively than a democratic one.  Agreed, they could respond to this particular threat more effectively.  Agreed, a democratic government is preferable overall.

But a lot of democratic governments did a lot better than Trump.  How to fight the bug is not hard.  You shut down completely and all at once while defending the borders.  You get the number of people infected low, then test and trace to keep them low.  You produce and distribute enough ventilators, PPE, test kits and so on.  In doing these things, most democratic countries did much better than Trump.  

The solution is not to send a message that the bug isn't serious and make gaining sufficient PPE and testing difficult.  The solution is not to politicize the virus but to respond with science.

Now you can continue to try to view it upside down, but it is clear you are viewing it upside down.  I told Xenakis over in the Generational Dynamics thread that he could convince the people already sharing his bubble, but to people outside the bubble the bubble would be really obvious.  You have much the same problem.  In order to reallocate blame, you have to ignore the science of what is happening.  Those outside the Trump bubble are going to recognize easily what you are doing.

(08-15-2020, 05:08 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-15-2020, 02:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-15-2020, 10:54 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The deaths are heavily American. It is our problem now. Some State governors did a good job of meeting the disease, but our President got in the way. China closed off the afflicted area, but Trump made the response largely a state option. The private sector, both for-profit and not-for profit (in the latter, such includes the Roman Catholic Church and mainline Protestant denominations) met their tasks well. The NHL and NBA ended their seasons early. Lessons from other countries were good warnings. Religious processions were particularly infamous for spreading the virus because those often attract sick people. Such explains Italy and Iran... it is telling that Saudi Arabia cancelled the Hajj. 

There have been spreader events such as some megachurch services in which the hack pastor tells people that God is enough to save people from the virus, protests against the lockdowns, funerals, and even a Trump rally (most infamously in Tulsa. Herman Cain got infected there and eventually died). Most recent of dumb events to attend was the big motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota. You can be sure that there will be nothing of the kind in Sturgis, Michigan, which typically has events that piggyback on that one. Let's put it this way... if you will be in the market for a good late-model Harley-Davidson motorcycle in a few months, plenty will be available at unusually modest prices because their owners went to the big motorcycle convention. Worse, they will have transmitted COVID-19 to people who had nothing to do with the big motorcycle rally.  

It's well past time to blame the People's Republic of China. We were doing much wrong before COVID-19 struck, fostering an economic order that seems to maximize economic inequality on behalf of elites as arrogant as feudal lords of the late-medieval and early-modern era authorizing news media to sell out to commercial interests while pretending to be objective purveyors of information, debasing public K-12 education into training for dead-end jobs in which seemingly only people with borderline retardation could be happy. The super-rich seemingly have no responsibility unless they kill (Phil Specter) or rape (Weinstein, Epstein, and Cosby, which is not a law firm), and the rest of us are responsible to the super-rich. 

We were told that the key to prosperity was that if we would suffer for the elites through lower wages, higher rents, more monopolization, easier availability of propaganda on behalf of pure plutocracy, and support of the political lackeys of the Master Class, then we too would prosper. If Robert Heinlein related that the proper image of the Soviet Union was of a drunk, the proper image of America might now be a homeless person. A trend that began about forty years ago has reached its preposterous conclusion -- and great tragedy.

We aren't like China or the European nations or the other Asian nations or the Latino and Hispanic nations or the Middle Eastern nations. You seem to be upset that Trump stuck with the American way and delegated authority to the states vs the Chinese way. Once again, you tell me your not communist but show me that you're open to the communist way when at risk. Well, we're different than you. We prefer the American way and are willing to accept risk and accept some losses to keep Americans working and keep the American system functioning as Democrats do what Democrats do during election years which is mainly placing their needs above everyone else's and not caring about people who don't support them politically. Well, they're shooting themselves in foot without knowing/realizing their shooting themselves in the foot.

A President has great power to enforce public policy on clear and present dangers. COVID-19 may not quite be at the same level of clear and present danger as nuke-bearing ICBM's in a sneak attack, but a more decisive response was due. The money-grubbing NBA and NHL curtailed highly-profitable seasons, which should have been an indicator of the perception of danger. 

170,000 losses is a huge quantity for keeping an economy moving. We ordinarily have a huge toll of death from vehicle collisions (many with pedestrians), and we have done much to reduce that by re-engineering roads, mandating safety features on cars, and enforcing traffic laws. The "cat at the mouse-hole" approach to speeding  is obvious to a non-speeder, barely visible to someone at the speed limit, and not at all visible to the speeder... but the cop sees the speeder. I've seen it at work. I have also noticed rigid police presence at drinking places. The local cops have stars for DUI busts in my town.  I have seen state troopers at the state line greeting people with a radar gun on holidays... a trooper is up ahead a few miles ready to make a stop. Some states have red-light cameras.   

If the deaths from COVID-19 were war deaths, then they would involve the third-worst death toll involving Americans from war, behind only the American Civil War and World War II. Generals getting such a toll in combat while getting at best a costly stalemate would be cashiered. OK, it is a respiratory infection and not a shooting war... but people are dead nonetheless. 

If I were President I would treat COVID-19 with all the seriousness of a war. I would be calling upon Congress to raise the federal gas tax for the duration, but allow it to be rebated to people who can show that their travel is essential. That would keep people in compliance with stay-at-home orders. I would be promoting contests for the best anti-COVID-19 posters and videos. I would seek to have people hate that virus like Americans hated Hitler, Tojo, and Mussolini in the last war... and more recently Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. Hey -- it's a virus! I would be pushing video-conferencing and culture. 

It is a bad time, but one of the most important skills anyone can learn is the knack for making the best out of a bad situation. Maybe this is the best chance that you will ever have of reading Moby Dick... and maybe you can take up some craft that you thought you might be good at. 

I certainly would defer to the experts in medicine and public health. Figure that some people have specialized training that I lack. Donald Trump has the Dunning-Kruger effect, the dangerous position that with a little knowledge he thinks that he knows more than do the experts. As Lincoln said about all the armchair strategists during the Civil War, that if American generals could be as good as that, then the war would already be over. Anyone (let us say a six-year-old great-niece of "Father Abram") can make a firm, resolute gesture suggesting a troop movement on a map. It's obviously not that simple other than in over-simplified retrospect. 

I would laud free-market solutions to getting compliance. I am surprised that funeral homes did not offer masks that say such things as 

MASK IT OR CASKET

Smith-Jones Funeral Home
Indianola, Texas (zip code)

(512) 555-DEAD

(Indianola, Texas is a ghost town)

I would set an example. I would go out with a face mask if at all. I would not be holding political rallies at which the virus could spread. If stopping a deadly virus isn't worth losing an election about, then what is?