(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 01:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 01:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 08:14 AM)taramarie Wrote: Whoah this place is really turning to shit. Opening up the door and walking back out and back to animation studies. I will say this. No matter the side, both can and do have extremists. Instead of pointing finger, maybe address ones own flaws and the other side too otherwise it is a back and forth blindness. Good luck America. On the plus side for me, i am getting my green card in a couple of days and will be a European permanent resident as well as a kiwi citizen. Hope all are well here.

Polar opposites don't attract, oil and water doesn't mix, good and evil don't embrace and join hands  and that's what you're seeing here today.

Your platitudes are right... but Donald Trump really is a hideous example of a man and especially a leader. Let's start with how he treats about half of humanity... One well-recognized platitude is "Thou shalt not commit adultery".







If Trump shows such frequent, flagrant disloyalty to a spouse, then what does that say about him? I can understand divorce and remarriage because people can make terrible judgment in marriage. (spouse is abusive or criminal... or frigid).

So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

(08-28-2020, 07:47 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Rachel Maddow was one of MSNBC's chairs on the Republican convention, part of the same team that covered the Democrats.  At the end of Trump's climax speech she did a summary fact check.  I guess it is as clear of example of how much Trump counts on lies, on creating a false reality for his base.

I noted the chairs, three ladies, seem to have got drunk on peanut butter cups during the convention.  You could not watch, apparently, without laughing.  The criminal event violated the Hatch Act, was a maskless high density super spreader for COVUS, and was saturated with lies.

I am still wondering if the RNC will create a positive or negative 'bounce' in the polls.

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

(08-27-2020, 08:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 07:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yep. There are those who are obsessed with looting and violence these days. We also have a political party that's either politically handcuffed for obvious reasons pertaining to race or creed or directly viewed as in cahoots with them as well. And yes, there are those who will resort or support those who resort to violence as a means to detour them or as means to defend themselves, their families, their communities, and so forth. Lets see, we earned our freedom with violence. The Texans earned their freedom with violence. The slaves were freed with violence. The Imperialist Japanese and Nazi Germany were conquered with violence and the Soviet Union was cutoff, isolated and contained by an understanding of America's history and American willingness/preference to fight wars abroad as a means to defend/protect the American homeland. So, whose territory am I in right now?

You are in the Industrial Age.  All the examples you gave are in the Industrial Age.  Well, the exception is containing the Soviet Union, and they fell due to non violence but have reverted to autocratic rule, so I'm not sure if they can be placed reliably as an Information Age culture.  Putin will eventually fall.  We will have to see how he falls.  Will a war be necessary?

In the Information Age you try non violence first, and if it succeeds great.  If you have to escalate, you escalate.  If the government is clinging to the old values is absolutely dedicated to the old values and is unwilling to change, and there is no peaceful way of transferring power, you resort to violence.  

Some still look at the Industrial Age to develop their view of how the universe works.  Some are carried on by their hunter gatherer genes, divide into us and them instinctively, and will use violence freely on the other group as they are bred to do.  When they think Americans, they think some subset of Americans who think like they do.  To them Americans doesn't mean all those who live in America.  America is given a perverted meaning.

I would suggest with my trying to combine turnings, ages, civilizations and behavioral science, I have warned people to be aware of shifting ages.  Thus, you are on my territory.

We do differ on who benefits from violence.  I see Trump as playing the fear card, of dividing Americans into us and them, of playing up the old us and them hunter gatherer instincts.  Biden is trying to unite all Americans who are listening, is trying to resolve things with protest and legislation rather than violence.  As I see a strong possibility that Biden and the Democrats will succeed in using protest and legislation to solve problems like COVID and violent racist policing, there is absolutely no need for violence save as a subtle threat.  

Even Martin Luther King listened occasionally to Malcom X.  Even he let his anger carry him away from time to time.  While I do not endorse the violence, I am not surprised by it.  It is in our nature as humans.  The threat of it enhances the protest and legislate process.  If violence wasn't a background threat, the establishment would be less inclined to cave.  This is not to say I am enthusiastic about wallowing in violence, or think the police shouldn't make it hard on those who choose to walk the violent path.  But, unfortunately, cultures are stubborn.  The more conservative folk will not collapse their privileged perspective as quickly if the violence isn't there.

That does not mean about every four score and seven years a new birth of freedom doesn't come.  You should have picked that up that from turning theory if nothing else.

(08-28-2020, 03:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

That is the deadliest sin, to a typical Republican like Classic Xer.

(08-27-2020, 03:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 12:01 PM)CH86 Wrote: Those claiming Trump Wants protests to escalate are talking nonsense. The protests do nothing to advance any governmental agenda, and his poll numbers declined by over 10 points when the protests began (they have recovered in the last couple weeks due to the DNC going full SJW with the VP selection). The DNC has far more ulterior motive to stir up renewed protests because if the protests fizzle out before the election many Younger Blacks and Younger Latinos would otherwise be attracted to vote Trump in a fully rational voting process. The DNC has far more motives to continuously stir up tensions and the inevitable irrational thought processes that generates so as to prevent a mass demexit otherwise. It is the scarecrow strategy being implemented here. Biden is weaker than Trump on actual policies, and must change the subject to emotional cultural issues rather than policy.

I think Trump wants to escalate the violence. I assume his people have restrained him a bit, or he is cautious enough not to go whole hog on this. But doing nothing about the cop killings assures more violence will continue on both sides. We see it escalating in Kenosha, and that suits Trump's purpose just fine. The protests have advanced the agenda toward police reform in some places, but no real advancement on virtually anything can happen under the current 40-year-old neo-liberal stalemate in congress. Something has to break through, and I am still holding to my prediction that something will-- if not this year, then during the next 4 years.

Younger black and hispanic voters will not turn toward Trump. You certainly harbor strange notions, Cynic Hero. It must be fun for you living in your own reality. Older folks may turn to Trump, since they are responsive to fear. The protests have helped the Democratic cause, but they happened for sincere reasons. Murders by cops are outrageous violations of our rights, which you CH don't care about.

Biden got a slight bump of about a point from the DNC, and I don't think his VP selection helped or hurt him much. It was a poor selection, and he did limit his choices in order to appeal to his base, but the negative effect of that lies in the future. The bump seems to have evaporated already, and it remains to be seen whether a Trump Bump happens after his blowhard speech tonight. The fears and lies he puts out have a hypnotic effect on the ignorant and poorly informed, poorly-educated portion of the American electorate, which is way too large.

The lack of a Republican platform this year is a flagrant admission that they only "principle" they stand for is fealty to the dear leader. Violating the law by holding the convention at the White House shows that rule of law is not a priority for them either, and that Republicans are fine with breaking the law as long as it is their side doing it. But if Bill Clinton is embarrassed by a private affair there, then he must be impeached by dozens of Republicans who do the same stuff and worse and lie about it too.

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

(08-27-2020, 07:22 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:28 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 02:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 02:10 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Braaaaak, buck buck buck.

As I recall, the last time you fucked up and pissed me off and learned where you ranked with me as far as your importance and your overall contribution to society, you hid/disappeared for quite a while afterwards. Oh, and when you returned, you spent more time trying to appeal and trying to be more able to relate and accept bad information or news that directly relates to you and the side that you have chosen and have continued to blindly support regardless of the circumstances or obvious changes that are needed for people other than you or the typical Democratic supporter or Democratic fan  today.

I took a little vacation?  I might have, at that.  If so it was frustration at trying to hold a debate by one who doesn't bother to check against reality.  Still, I have to do something in a time where so many of my other commitments have been canceled by the bug.  I hate to tell you, but it didn't have anything to do with my putting a dent in your self image.  That resulted in a few giggles, nothing more.

Braaaaak, buck buck buck.

I think one differences between how we see the problem is in how we divide among motivations.  I separate groups with different motivations.  The violent racist cops, the federal secret police, the police, the military, Black Lives Matter, the Boogaloo Bois, the KKK, the Neo Nazi, Antifa, the SJWs, the Trumpists, the establishment Republicans, the Tea Party, etc...  In between there is often a blurring of motives.  The more sets of motives one includes, the more your perspective is harder to understand.  The fewer you use, the more the motives are confused.  I'm trying to include enough motivations to be inclusive, but am frustrated when one give for example Black Lives Matter the Boogaloo Bois motives, or assumes Antifa is active when they were opposed to the missing in action KKK and Neo Nazi.  If you lock onto blatant misunderstandings like that, how can there be communication?

You get different sorts of people interested in different things about the turning theory.  Many blues are interested in the possibility of periodic radical change, about a new birth of freedom every four score and seven years.  How does that come about?  What happens to the people who used to share the old values?

On the other hand, there are those obsessed with violence.   You are a prime example.  Xenakis is concerned with xenophobia as it used to exist in the Industrial Age, and does not care or seem to notice that we are not in that age anymore.  S&H made many insightful observations about what happened in the past.  They are sloppy about asking if the observations are true anymore.  If violence used to be necessary to make changes, is it truly necessary anymore?  If you can institute a change with non violence, is it prudent to try that first?

Yet many fans are in one way or another obsessed by the violence rich observation of past times.  They welcome the possibility of violence without noticing the periodic new births of freedom.  I for one am expecting a new birth of freedom.

I think that is much of the difference between us.  Some will see a 4T coming and be fascinated by the possibility of violence.  Others, so long as they can get their new birth of freedom, will use violence only as a last resort.  It could prove necessary if the old thinking is enough in opposition to listening to the new values.  They might refuse to hear.  The might refuse to change.  You have to change to get a new birth of freedom.

Right now, I see a path to get the new birth of freedom while avoiding the violence.  That seems the obvious win.  To one who is obsessed with the dream of violence and doesn't care about a new birth of freedom?  He wouldn't want see it.

Fortunately...  Braaaaak, buck buck buck.

Yep. There are those who are obsessed with looting and violence these days. We also have a political party that's either politically handcuffed for obvious reasons pertaining to race or creed or directly viewed as in cahoots with them as well. And yes, there are those who will resort or support those who resort to violence as a means to detour them or as means to defend themselves, their families, their communities, and so forth. Lets see, we earned our freedom with violence. The Texans earned their freedom with violence. The slaves were freed with violence. The Imperialist Japanese and Nazi Germany were conquered with violence and the Soviet Union was cutoff, isolated and contained by an understanding of America's history and American willingness/preference to fight wars abroad as a means to defend/protect the American homeland. So, whose territory am I in right now?

(08-28-2020, 10:32 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

The old values tend to go away in a 4T.  If you paid any attention over the years you would know this.  The worst problems the culture faces go away.  If you want to make yourself part of that, OK, but being the odd man out ain't pretty.

(08-29-2020, 12:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. The Black bourgeoisie, a/k/a the Talented Tenth in the time of Booker T. Washington. This group has expanded, but much of it still is employed in government, or if it is not in government employment, relies heavily upon public payments for serving people on welfare, such as defense attorneys, grocery-store owners whose customers rely heavily upon food aid, medical providers who may get much of their income from Medicaid or Medicare (which means that it is more concerned with keeping Big Government serving people than cutting taxes). 

The biggest fault that white racists can find with them is that they do the worst possible thing (by racist standards)  to white people -- marrying them and having children by them. These people have much influence upon poor blacks as the only people that poor blacks can generally trust. 

As a rule the Black Bourgeoisie is well-educated, indeed better-educated than America as a whole. Trump is the most anti-intellectual President ever, but that will apply to other groups that I mention. 

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

Quote:I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend.

Quote:You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:23 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 12:01 PM)CH86 Wrote: Those claiming Trump Wants protests to escalate are talking nonsense. The protests do nothing to advance any governmental agenda, and his poll numbers declined by over 10 points when the protests began (they have recovered in the last couple weeks due to the DNC going full SJW with the VP selection). The DNC has far more ulterior motive to stir up renewed protests because if the protests fizzle out before the election many Younger Blacks and Younger Latinos would otherwise be attracted to vote Trump in a fully rational voting process. The DNC has far more motives to continuously stir up tensions and the inevitable irrational thought processes that generates so as to prevent a mass demexit otherwise. It is the scarecrow strategy being implemented here. Biden is weaker than Trump on actual policies, and must change the subject to emotional cultural issues rather than policy.

I think Trump wants to escalate the violence. I assume his people have restrained him a bit, or he is cautious enough not to go whole hog on this. But doing nothing about the cop killings assures more violence will continue on both sides. We see it escalating in Kenosha, and that suits Trump's purpose just fine. The protests have advanced the agenda toward police reform in some places, but no real advancement on virtually anything can happen under the current 40-year-old neo-liberal stalemate in congress. Something has to break through, and I am still holding to my prediction that something will-- if not this year, then during the next 4 years.

Younger black and hispanic voters will not turn toward Trump. You certainly harbor strange notions, Cynic Hero. It must be fun for you living in your own reality. Older folks may turn to Trump, since they are responsive to fear. The protests have helped the Democratic cause, but they happened for sincere reasons. Murders by cops are outrageous violations of our rights, which you CH don't care about.

Biden got a slight bump of about a point from the DNC, and I don't think his VP selection helped or hurt him much. It was a poor selection, and he did limit his choices in order to appeal to his base, but the negative effect of that lies in the future. The bump seems to have evaporated already, and it remains to be seen whether a Trump Bump happens after his blowhard speech tonight. The fears and lies he puts out have a hypnotic effect on the ignorant and poorly informed, poorly-educated portion of the American electorate, which is way too large.

The lack of a Republican platform this year is a flagrant admission that they only "principle" they stand for is fealty to the dear leader. Violating the law by holding the convention at the White House shows that rule of law is not a priority for them either, and that Republicans are fine with breaking the law as long as it is their side doing it. But if Bill Clinton is embarrassed by a private affair there, then he must be impeached by dozens of Republicans who do the same stuff and worse and lie about it too.

He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

(08-28-2020, 05:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 03:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-27-2020, 03:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how are his ex wives doing these days? Are there any living off welfare these days? Are there any of their children living off welfare or any of his grand children living off welfare these days?

That is the deadliest sin, to a typical Republican like Classic Xer.

Yep, there is nothing worse in this world than a lowly deadbeat male who believes he's entitled to something that he can't earn himself. It's to bad that you aren't black and you weren't born in the hood, at least you'd have an excuse.

(08-29-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What values do you see going away?

(08-29-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you see the rule of law going away?

(08-29-2020, 12:18 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you see our values going away?

(08-29-2020, 01:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 12:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. The Black bourgeoisie, a/k/a the Talented Tenth in the time of Booker T. Washington. This group has expanded, but much of it still is employed in government, or if it is not in government employment, relies heavily upon public payments for serving people on welfare, such as defense attorneys, grocery-store owners whose customers rely heavily upon food aid, medical providers who may get much of their income from Medicaid or Medicare (which means that it is more concerned with keeping Big Government serving people than cutting taxes). 

The biggest fault that white racists can find with them is that they do the worst possible thing (by racist standards)  to white people -- marrying them and having children by them. These people have much influence upon poor blacks as the only people that poor blacks can generally trust. 

As a rule the Black Bourgeoisie is well-educated, indeed better-educated than America as a whole. Trump is the most anti-intellectual President ever, but that will apply to other groups that I mention. 

Biden's group. I assume that this is the group that saved Joe Biden from being eliminated from contention and determined the color of skin of his running mate as well. I don't know how well educated they are compared to my older brother or someone like Rani or several other successful professionals with college degrees that I happen to know personally as well. I assume they weren't fond of the idea of having a white communist/socialist believing Jew associated with global interests that may not match their interests in charge of deciding who gets the most tax dollars and so forth when they know what they're going to get with Biden. In short, the big government side is as greedy when it comes to money as the private sector side. The main difference is the private sector side owns its money. Now, you have some private sectors on your side like Nancy's husband and so forth. Now, if you were to have to choose between providing welfare programs or water that people can drink knowing we can no longer afford both, which one would you pick? I'd like to see if you'd pick the same one as me. Now, shit happens as we all know and there's always a chance that we might need welfare. I've had shit happen with me a few times where I came close to needing welfare.

(08-29-2020, 04:23 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 10:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 09:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-28-2020, 07:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: He's running on the same platform as he did back in 2016 with the support of the Republican party. What do you have to offer the black and Hispanic voters who want something more than the party of the third world has to offer these days? I must say, selling the same old shit time after time must pay pretty well.

You can on the positive side promote democracy, human rights and equality.  On the less abstract level, you can stop murdering them.  The Republicans, some of them, do not want to do this.  Years of oppression has become a habit.  The do not want to stop their assumption of superiority or grant what they take for granted for themselves.

In short, we were bred to see us and them and oppress them.  If conservatives want so badly to oppress, is it a wonder that their values are going kapt?

I don't care what the Democrats pass, as long as we have black citizens and police, we are going to have some incidents between some black people and cops that result in death.

Why do you say this?

Quote:I think Tucker Carlson said that we had about eight incidents that occurred across the entire country last year. I'm sorry but that ain't much of a problem in my opinion considering twice as many were killed by each other in Chicago last weekend.

I don't trust Tucker Carlson as a reporter; he is biased.

By quantity, this may not seem like much of a problem, if your figures are right. But it happens often enough that blacks are afraid to walk the streets for fear of being killed by police. Also, racial profiling causes many to be pulled over, and the fear that they may be shot or otherwise hurt or killed is always there. And this is threatening, damaging and hurtful to black people. Because of this, black people are angry and on edge about these frequent and continuing incidents.

The way I look at it, if police can pull over and kill somebody for no reason, as happens to many black people, that is a violation of my rights. Chief of Staff Mark Meadows said this week on PBS that he is not black, so he can't relate to how black people feel about this threat. But that just shows racial bias. We are all human beings, so it is not hard to relate to the threat of being stopped and killed by police for no reason. And it happens to whites too, as Michael Bell personally related about his son in 2004 in Kenosha tonight on Democracy Now. If police can do this, and get away with it (as they have usually done up until now), then I am concerned that we might live in a police state. Many share my concern.

Quote:You don't know shit. All you know is what the new popular trend on the Democratic side is and which bandwagon you're supposed to jump on and fully support at this point. Personally, I don't think the uppity black mayor of Chicago really cares about the ghetto blacks. I think she places herself and her wife and her wealthier liberal neighbors above them in importance as she lectures us and blames us for not caring about them as much as she, her wife  and her neighbors care about them. Fuck her.

Political alliances are necessary in order to accomplish anything. So white liberals and black liberals must join together and work together and support each other's aims and concerns in order to win. And a liberal philosophy joins us together in mutual understanding.