(10-29-2020, 12:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 11:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 10:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 09:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yet, you support packing the courts with Liberal judges and turning the Supreme Court into a legislative branch right.

But I am not claiming some kind of bogus originalist doctrine that is only a slogan and escuse for your conservative idiots to declare rulings regardless of what they mean for our country.

I'd rather have a Conservative judge that goes by the rule of law than a Liberal judge who views themself as being above the law and able to change laws as they please. You're playing with fire and you're going to get burned. If you're willing to place everything  on the line and  die for abortion, be my guest.

I'd rather have all of you idiots voted out permanently and this country returned to the rule of law and decency, instead of burning up and flooding the country and taking away our democracy as your court is doing. You are willing to see your land flooded and burned, and you are going to get burned. The antifa and BLM are going to come fer ya, take yer guns, take yer air condishning, and burn your house down.

You're seeing the ugly results of having people like us voted out permanently. Like I said, it's a race to the bottom and the Democratic side is winning and we're going to keep it that way.

(10-29-2020, 12:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 11:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 11:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 10:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-27-2020, 09:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yet, you support packing the courts with Liberal judges and turning the Supreme Court into a legislative branch right.

But I am not claiming some kind of bogus originalist doctrine that is only a slogan and escuse for your conservative idiots to declare rulings regardless of what they mean for our country.

I'd rather have a Conservative judge that goes by the rule of law than a Liberal judge who views themself as being above the law and able to change laws as they please. You're playing with fire and you're going to get burned. If you're willing to place everything  on the line and  die for abortion, be my guest.

I'd rather have all of you idiots voted out permanently and this country returned to the rule of law and decency, instead of burning up and flooding the country and taking away our democracy as your court is doing. You are willing to see your land flooded and burned, and you are going to get burned. The antifa and BLM are going to come fer ya, take yer guns, take yer air condishning, and burn your house down.

You're seeing the ugly results of having people like us voted out permanently. Like I said, it's a race to the bottom and the Democratic side is winning and we're going to keep it that way.

(10-30-2020, 01:24 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Democrats have a lot to do if they win. It's hard to remember it all. Here's just a taste...

10. I'll leave it at 10 for now, and I won't discuss gun control, abortion, women's and gay rights, trade, workers' rights, consumer rights, unions, regulating speculation, infrastructure, housing, and education here, etc., but health care and the pandemic is on everyone's mind. Trump and the repugs have slashed funding and programs for disease control and research, and it must be restored at once, including full plans to control the current and future pandemics. Health care reform must proceed with plans to move toward a medicare for all system.

(10-31-2020, 09:58 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 01:24 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Democrats have a lot to do if they win. It's hard to remember it all. Here's just a taste...

10. I'll leave it at 10 for now, and I won't discuss gun control, abortion, women's and gay rights, trade, workers' rights, consumer rights, unions, regulating speculation, infrastructure, housing, and education here, etc., but health care and the pandemic is on everyone's mind. Trump and the repugs have slashed funding and programs for disease control and research, and it must be restored at once, including full plans to control the current and future pandemics. Health care reform must proceed with plans to move toward a medicare for all system.

Eras take a long time coming to fruition, and this one will be no exception (assuming it begins soon).  This one will be no different.

(10-31-2020, 01:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 09:58 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-30-2020, 01:24 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Democrats have a lot to do if they win. It's hard to remember it all. Here's just a taste...

10. I'll leave it at 10 for now, and I won't discuss gun control, abortion, women's and gay rights, trade, workers' rights, consumer rights, unions, regulating speculation, infrastructure, housing, and education here, etc., but health care and the pandemic is on everyone's mind. Trump and the repugs have slashed funding and programs for disease control and research, and it must be restored at once, including full plans to control the current and future pandemics. Health care reform must proceed with plans to move toward a medicare for all system.

Eras take a long time coming to fruition, and this one will be no exception (assuming it begins soon).  This one will be no different.

Agreed.  The last progressive era ended when the racist vote turned out to be stronger than the black vote.  We wound up with the conservatives dominant as a result.  We have talked about the shifting demographics all through the unraveling, but that is a slow process.  I suspect Trump will be the catalyst that brings America over the top, that a progressive victory Tuesday could result in a period that lasts for decades.

Crises seem inevitably to be between a conservative stay the same faction and a progressive solve the problem one.  It does not seem prudent to predict this will change.  But the issues last time were government regulation of the economy and containing autocratic dictators.  That is quite different from COVID and structural racism, the two hottest issues now.  I see no reason to expect the next crisis to have similar issues to this one.

Alas, we won't see.

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

(10-31-2020, 03:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

True, but the elites are few and they need to address some issue focused around the common people to get power.  In this case, it was the racist vote.  I suspect most Republicans were not so interested in weakening the influence of the worker, in increasing elite power, but the elites and racists made an unholy alliance.

(10-31-2020, 03:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

True, but the elites are few and they need to address some issue focused around the common people to get power.  In this case, it was the racist vote.  I suspect most Republicans were not so interested in weakening the influence of the worker, in increasing elite power, but the elites and racists made an unholy alliance.

(10-31-2020, 01:15 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Crises seem inevitably to be between a conservative stay the same faction and a progressive solve the problem one.  It does not seem prudent to predict this will change.  But the issues last time were government regulation of the economy and containing autocratic dictators.  That is quite different from COVID and structural racism, the two hottest issues now.  I see no reason to expect the next crisis to have similar issues to this one.

Alas, we won't see.

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Conservatives made something of a comeback after 1968, but it was a partial one, and after Watergate it went away. Many reform movements continued in the 1970s with important results. The conservative era, which had its forerunners in the mid and late sixties (during a progressive time), really began with Reagan. He instituted trickle-down economics, aka neo-liberalism, which is a racist dog whistle, but is not entirely racist. It appeals to economic libertarians. It was anti-taxation and regulation. Wholly unnecessary, it was brought about because big interests found the movements of the Awakening like consumerism and environmentalism cutting into their bottom line. They hired Reagan to deceive people into following them. He was a master communicator and a brilliant faux-macho charming actor whom Gen X grew up with, and they absorbed the lies and have stuck with him through Bush, Gingrich, Bush Jr., Paul Ryan. Mitch McConnell, and Donald Trump. Many Silents and Boomers were persuaded to give up their sixties and seventies idealism and join in the greedy fun. Strauss and Howe called the 1984 victory an all-generational acquiescence into indulgence.

So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

(11-01-2020, 08:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Conservatives made something of a comeback after 1968, but it was a partial one, and after Watergate it went away. Many reform movements continued in the 1970s with important results. The conservative era, which had its forerunners in the mid and late sixties (during a progressive time), really began with Reagan. He instituted trickle-down economics, aka neo-liberalism, which is a racist dog whistle, but is not entirely racist. It appeals to economic libertarians. It was anti-taxation and regulation. Wholly unnecessary, it was brought about because big interests found the movements of the Awakening like consumerism and environmentalism cutting into their bottom line. They hired Reagan to deceive people into following them. He was a master communicator and a brilliant faux-macho charming actor whom Gen X grew up with, and they absorbed the lies and have stuck with him through Bush, Gingrich, Bush Jr., Paul Ryan. Mitch McConnell, and Donald Trump. Many Silents and Boomers were persuaded to give up their sixties and seventies idealism and join in the greedy fun. Strauss and Howe called the 1984 victory an all-generational acquiescence into indulgence.

So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

Where you live, I think you're right. Where I live, not so much.  Here, and many places less urban than the Blue Coasts, there was a fascination with all things Southern starting with the Nixon era, but really gaining speed under Carter (or perhaps, Carter was another example of the trend).  It's only beginning to wane today.  

Baked-in culture is much harder to dislodge than more superficial and temporary fads, and we baked in that culture for decades.  Of course the 3T ran overly long.  A lot of it was the immense anti-hippie backlash, and some is more mundane, like religion.  But the prime motivator was a fear of an uncertain future ... of progress itself. Moving that toward another belief structure will be many decades in the making.

(11-01-2020, 09:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 08:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Conservatives made something of a comeback after 1968, but it was a partial one, and after Watergate it went away. Many reform movements continued in the 1970s with important results. The conservative era, which had its forerunners in the mid and late sixties (during a progressive time), really began with Reagan. He instituted trickle-down economics, aka neo-liberalism, which is a racist dog whistle, but is not entirely racist. It appeals to economic libertarians. It was anti-taxation and regulation. Wholly unnecessary, it was brought about because big interests found the movements of the Awakening like consumerism and environmentalism cutting into their bottom line. They hired Reagan to deceive people into following them. He was a master communicator and a brilliant faux-macho charming actor whom Gen X grew up with, and they absorbed the lies and have stuck with him through Bush, Gingrich, Bush Jr., Paul Ryan. Mitch McConnell, and Donald Trump. Many Silents and Boomers were persuaded to give up their sixties and seventies idealism and join in the greedy fun. Strauss and Howe called the 1984 victory an all-generational acquiescence into indulgence.

So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

Where you live, I think you're right. Where I live, not so much.  Here, and many places less urban than the Blue Coasts, there was a fascination with all things Southern starting with the Nixon era, but really gaining speed under Carter (or perhaps, Carter was another example of the trend).  It's only beginning to wane today.  

Baked-in culture is much harder to dislodge than more superficial and temporary fads, and we baked in that culture for decades.  Of course the 3T ran overly long.  A lot of it was the immense anti-hippie backlash, and some is more mundane, like religion.  But the prime motivator was a fear of an uncertain future ... of progress itself. Moving that toward another belief structure will be many decades in the making.

Some of it was future shock.  Enough changed in the 1960s that there was a rejection of more change.  But I think the blue idea was debated endlessly and enough throughout the unravelling that we will slip into it easy enough.

(11-01-2020, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 09:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 08:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Conservatives made something of a comeback after 1968, but it was a partial one, and after Watergate it went away... Many Silents and Boomers were persuaded to give up their sixties and seventies idealism and join in the greedy fun. Strauss and Howe called the 1984 victory an all-generational acquiescence into indulgence.

So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

Where you live, I think you're right. Where I live, not so much.  Here, and many places less urban than the Blue Coasts, there was a fascination with all things Southern starting with the Nixon era, but really gaining speed under Carter (or perhaps, Carter was another example of the trend).  It's only beginning to wane today.  

Baked-in culture is much harder to dislodge than more superficial and temporary fads, and we baked in that culture for decades.  Of course the 3T ran overly long.  A lot of it was the immense anti-hippie backlash, and some is more mundane, like religion.  But the prime motivator was a fear of an uncertain future ... of progress itself. Moving that toward another belief structure will be many decades in the making.

Some of it was future shock.  Enough changed in the 1960s that there was a rejection of more change.  But I think the blue idea was debated endlessly and enough throughout the unravelling that we will slip into it easy enough.

Yes, Dixie went reactionary fairly soon, especially culturally, but overall some progress continued in the 1970s in the environmental and consumer movements and women's and gay rights, and war lost its appeal and momentum for a while. But huge spending to reduce poverty went out of style fairly quickly I must admit. It continued to some extent, with jobs programs continuing, and then was reversed in the 1980s and from then on.

(11-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The theory suggests different moods, different styles of action.  In the unravelling there is a lot of talk, compromise, arguing and stalemate.  In the crisis there is a lot of effort to solve problems, and you let go of those values which cause problems.  In the high, you worship the solutions that worked, suppress the values that caused the problems while building infrastructure.

One angle to look at the situation is that there are too many people fond of the old values so it is impossible to solve the problems.  Biden can change the tone.  Unless he has two houses of Congress backing him up, he can’t solve the problems alone.

A part of the problem is an unwillingness to compromise.  We elected a black president.  This resulted in a racist unwillingness to compromise.  Apart from Obamacare, we have not moved much since.  As things are looking, if the red continue this obstruction, the blue will be unable to get anything through congress, and the veto will prevent them from getting anything through congress.  What results is like it or not a continuation of the unravelling.  The problems don’t get solved.

That does not make a lot of sense.  That seems the way we could be heading.

An answer would be to solve problems.  What it would take is that on each issue a handful of red congressmen would have to care more about America than maintaining the party lockstep.  On the blue side, it would take respecting red values and goals enough to not try to crush them.  The unravelling mentality is to refuse to compromise.  The crisis mentality is to solve problems, which seems to require compromise.

It means giving up the things the other guys want most in order to get what you want most.

One issue is the bug.  We want a federal over reaching plan.  We want to drive the bug down until we can test, trace and reopen the economy effectively.  Is it possible to find a handful of Republican congressmen who want what is best for America?

One issue is racist violent policing.  The reds blocked any federal solution.  Do the reds want the protest and the looters, boogaloo boys, and militias to continue the violence, or will a handful of congress let go of the lockstep.

The founding fathers did not conceive of weapons that the people shouldn’t have.  It is fairly obvious that there are some.  Can we get rid of the justification phrase with its mention of the militia, make the individual right to bear civilian arms absolute and unquestionable, and distinguish military arms by such things as multi shots per trigger pull, power per shot and magazine size?  Can we reach a reasonable compromise, or will the insistence on total extreme solutions mean the problem is left unsolved?

Trump would encourage violence.  He saw it to his advantage to divide.  Does anyone want that to become part of the culture?  Can we agree that everybody should cut it out?

I could go on.  One problem at a time.  Start solving problems.  If the culture of party obstruction being more important than America continues, the unraveling could effectively continue.  If the extremists insist on total wins of their point of view, what we will get is deadlock.

(11-04-2020, 10:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 01:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 09:54 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-01-2020, 08:41 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-31-2020, 03:05 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Conservatives made something of a comeback after 1968, but it was a partial one, and after Watergate it went away... Many Silents and Boomers were persuaded to give up their sixties and seventies idealism and join in the greedy fun. Strauss and Howe called the 1984 victory an all-generational acquiescence into indulgence.

So it was more than the racist vote versus the black vote. There are a lot of concerns around which our current polarization has developed.

Where you live, I think you're right. Where I live, not so much.  Here, and many places less urban than the Blue Coasts, there was a fascination with all things Southern starting with the Nixon era, but really gaining speed under Carter (or perhaps, Carter was another example of the trend).  It's only beginning to wane today.  

Baked-in culture is much harder to dislodge than more superficial and temporary fads, and we baked in that culture for decades.  Of course the 3T ran overly long.  A lot of it was the immense anti-hippie backlash, and some is more mundane, like religion.  But the prime motivator was a fear of an uncertain future ... of progress itself. Moving that toward another belief structure will be many decades in the making.

Some of it was future shock.  Enough changed in the 1960s that there was a rejection of more change.  But I think the blue idea was debated endlessly and enough throughout the unravelling that we will slip into it easy enough.

Yes, Dixie went reactionary fairly soon, especially culturally, but overall some progress continued in the 1970s in the environmental and consumer movements and women's and gay rights, and war lost its appeal and momentum for a while. But huge spending to reduce poverty went out of style fairly quickly I must admit. It continued to some extent, with jobs programs continuing, and then was reversed in the 1980s and from then on.

As long as dog whistles still work, we're changing nothing.  Trump ran up a huge Latinx vote in Miami-Dade county Florida, by screaming SOCIALISM! It worked, and will continue to work on the fearful many who still remain -- mostly older folks, though not all.  Socialism has been used as a battle cry for over a century, and it still has that old magic for enough to make it useful.

(11-04-2020, 06:04 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The theory suggests different moods, different styles of action.  In the unravelling there is a lot of talk, compromise, arguing and stalemate.  In the crisis there is a lot of effort to solve problems, and you let go of those values which cause problems.  In the high, you worship the solutions that worked, suppress the values that caused the problems while building infrastructure.

One angle to look at the situation is that there are too many people fond of the old values so it is impossible to solve the problems.  Biden can change the tone.  Unless he has two houses of Congress backing him up, he can’t solve the problems alone.

A part of the problem is an unwillingness to compromise.  We elected a black president.  This resulted in a racist unwillingness to compromise.  Apart from Obamacare, we have not moved much since.  As things are looking, if the red continue this obstruction, the blue will be unable to get anything through congress, and the veto will prevent them from getting anything through congress.  What results is like it or not a continuation of the unravelling.  The problems don’t get solved.

That does not make a lot of sense.  That seems the way we could be heading.

(11-05-2020, 01:10 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-04-2020, 10:19 AM)David Horn Wrote: As long as dog whistles still work, we're changing nothing.  Trump ran up a huge Latinx vote in Miami-Dade county Florida, by screaming SOCIALISM! It worked, and will continue to work on the fearful many who still remain -- mostly older folks, though not all.  Socialism has been used as a battle cry for over a century, and it still has that old magic for enough to make it useful.

Indeed, along with slogans about guns and abortion. It would be good to get the Cuba issue off the table. If Biden and maybe Secretary of State Rice (?) can open up to Cuba again, and nudge them to at least gradually respect human rights and democracy more, if not the greedy capitalism many of those refugees favored and miss, they will be ameliorated and maybe they will go home again. Many of them are already young people who were never in Cuba, and yet they can be hypnotized and deceived by that slogan.

Only in the USA is socialism such a dirty word. It is the heritage of our red scares, principally at 30-year intervals in the 1920s, 50s and 80s and the tea-party 2010s too. The USA led the Cold War, and socialism and communism was the enemy. But socialism brought good government to Milwaukee, as a PBS doc showed. It can be a mixed economy and a democracy and it does not lead to tyranny. Many governments have been socialist to a degree, including ours from 1933 to 1981. Socialism is part of our revolutionary heritage that has liberated humanity to some degree since 1789, in the three great phases of which it was the second. It is essential, if not sufficient, to progress.