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Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - Odin - 08-10-2016
I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.
According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.
One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:
Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.
"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!"
RE: Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - pbrower2a - 08-19-2016
According to Howe and Strauss, America never had a true Civic generation between the Republican generation of Thomas Jefferson, DeWitt ("Do-IT") Clinton, and James Madison (the definitive institution-builders where and when those institutions barely existed and had to be created anew) and the GI Generation. The Gilded Generation ended up with the role after the American Civil War but handled it badly because they were not brought up as a Civic generation. They were too cynical, and their camaraderie rarely went beyond shared danger or a shared quest for gain. The generation being groomed to be a Civic Generation, the Progressive Generation of Thomas Edison and Theodore Roosevelt found the doors slamming shut on childhood discovery as the Civil War made such too risky for children.
The Millennial Generation is the first to have any contact with an earlier Civic generation since Jefferson's "Republicans". The Gilded may have acted in someways like a Civic generation, but it was too cut-throat in its competition and personal rivalries to express Civic values of cooperation and community.
Can the Millennial Generation be fully like GIs? Probably not. The Second Gulf War most likely inculcated some cynicism in Millennial young adults who participated in it about the trustworthiness of authority figures in the political and economic elites. Boomer Presidents have included the forgettable Bill Clinton and the awful George W. Bush.
Add to this, Boomer elites have displayed the most exploitative and dehumanizing expressions of narcissism that any generational leadership could ever show. Cultural elites among Boomers have generally been poor examples, too. The elder Idealist generation can not lead effectively in a Crisis Era unless it shows itself capable of some sacrifices of indulgence and gain. The Republican nominee for President exemplifies one of the worst tendencies in the Idealist generations: the ability to exploit and abuse people that he demands see him as a benefactor or protector.
Maybe Hillary Clinton will push some major reforms that gut the power of economic elites for the needs of the time. But that is asking for much. Boomer executives are the worst ever.
RE: Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - Eric the Green - 08-19-2016
GI executive leaders were no better; they drove the American economy into the ground with their top-down style and lack of innovation.
RE: Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - pbrower2a - 08-19-2016
(08-19-2016, 12:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: GI executive leaders were no better; they drove the American economy into the ground with their top-down style and lack of innovation.
GIs can be faulted for :
heavy use of leveraging
crass indifference to the environment
male chauvinism
bland culture
rigid conformity
If one had talent and showed it one could advance in a GI firm. If one had talent and had a mundane clerical job in a Boomer firm, one was told to use that talent to become more proficient at the mundane clerical job, and forget about getting ahead. The opportunities do not exist. Boomer executives remind me of a Soviet-style nomenklatura, an administrative class that practically became hereditary. After all, the spoiled-brat kids of executives and trophy wives will need opportunities to live somewhere near as well as they lived as kids, and they rarely are well prepared for the professions, academia, or starting businesses.
But unlike Boomers they never established such low, rigid ceilings to opportunity for the unconnected. Membership in managerial elites in Boomer organizations became (except for go-go tech companies just getting out of the start-up phase) much more limited to a few and far better rewarded.
It is hardly surprising that Generation X has been the most entrepreneurial generation since the Lost. Most recognize that they have no chance at getting out of poverty as employees of giant corporations. But owning and operating a successful business... one can lose everything, or one can do anything from struggling like a worker to getting fantastically rich.
RE: Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - gabrielle - 08-19-2016
(08-18-2016, 06:09 PM)taramarie Wrote:(08-10-2016, 04:36 PM)Odin Wrote: I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.Just have to add that I described to Chas (who has spoken of this double saeculum theory before) of what life is like here in NZ and he says we are probably in the Appolonian cycle like England which is the opposite of America which is in the Dionysian saeculum currently. I find that fascinating that we are in a different saeculum. Responding to the 4T in a different way. Fascinating stuff. I guess us Kiwi millies in that way are responding to our 4T in a way that is closer to the American GIs than American millies today. Attitude wise. Different things happening of course but we are more organized. No it is not just because we are a smaller nation. Historically NZ was not always this way. It also explains why some think I am more like a civic GI. We are in the same saeculum GI's were in at the time in America.
According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.
One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:
Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.
"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!"
I liked Chas' posts.
RE: Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - Odin - 08-20-2016
(08-19-2016, 09:49 PM)gabrielle Wrote:(08-18-2016, 06:09 PM)taramarie Wrote:(08-10-2016, 04:36 PM)Odin Wrote: I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.Just have to add that I described to Chas (who has spoken of this double saeculum theory before) of what life is like here in NZ and he says we are probably in the Appolonian cycle like England which is the opposite of America which is in the Dionysian saeculum currently. I find that fascinating that we are in a different saeculum. Responding to the 4T in a different way. Fascinating stuff. I guess us Kiwi millies in that way are responding to our 4T in a way that is closer to the American GIs than American millies today. Attitude wise. Different things happening of course but we are more organized. No it is not just because we are a smaller nation. Historically NZ was not always this way. It also explains why some think I am more like a civic GI. We are in the same saeculum GI's were in at the time in America.
According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.
One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:
Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.
"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!"
I liked Chas' posts.
Yeah, I really miss his stuff.
RE: Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern - Eric the Green - 08-20-2016
(08-19-2016, 09:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:(08-19-2016, 12:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: GI executive leaders were no better; they drove the American economy into the ground with their top-down style and lack of innovation.
GIs can be faulted for :
heavy use of leveraging
crass indifference to the environment
male chauvinism
bland culture
rigid conformity
If one had talent and showed it one could advance in a GI firm. If one had talent and had a mundane clerical job in a Boomer firm, one was told to use that talent to become more proficient at the mundane clerical job, and forget about getting ahead. The opportunities do not exist. Boomer executives remind me of a Soviet-style nomenklatura, an administrative class that practically became hereditary. After all, the spoiled-brat kids of executives and trophy wives will need opportunities to live somewhere near as well as they lived as kids, and they rarely are well prepared for the professions, academia, or starting businesses.
But unlike Boomers they never established such low, rigid ceilings to opportunity for the unconnected. Membership in managerial elites in Boomer organizations became (except for go-go tech companies just getting out of the start-up phase) much more limited to a few and far better rewarded.
It is hardly surprising that Generation X has been the most entrepreneurial generation since the Lost. Most recognize that they have no chance at getting out of poverty as employees of giant corporations. But owning and operating a successful business... one can lose everything, or one can do anything from struggling like a worker to getting fantastically rich.
The most powerful executives of recent years were Silents. No doubt some red Boomers are involved in big business, and they are as you say. Blue Boomers are probably not even corporate executives at all, but involved in non-profits or the arts. Nowadays Xers are probably frequently corporate leaders too, and they are hooked on the Reagan memes. I don't know how you could prove that Boomer executives don't allow employees to advance. Most of the social immobility in America today is due to the low wages and high prices for most people, established by the Reagan memes.