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Plato, Aristotle, and the double-saeculum pattern
#1
I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.

According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.

One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:

Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.

"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!" Big Grin
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#2
(08-10-2016, 04:36 PM)Odin Wrote: I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.

According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.

One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:

Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.

"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!" Big Grin
Just have to add that I described to Chas (who has spoken of this double saeculum theory before) of what life is like here in NZ and he says we are probably in the Appolonian cycle like England which is the opposite of America which is in the Dionysian saeculum currently. I find that fascinating that we are in a different saeculum. Responding to the 4T in a different way. Fascinating stuff. I guess us Kiwi millies in that way are responding to our 4T in a way that is closer to the American GIs than American millies today. Attitude wise. Different things happening of course but we are more organized. No it is not just because we are a smaller nation. Historically NZ was not always this way. It also explains why some think I am more like a civic GI. We are in the same saeculum GI's were in at the time in America.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#3
According to Howe and Strauss, America never had a true Civic generation between the Republican generation of Thomas Jefferson, DeWitt ("Do-IT") Clinton, and James Madison (the definitive institution-builders where and when those institutions barely existed and had to be created anew) and the GI Generation. The Gilded Generation ended up with the role after the American Civil War but handled it badly because they were not brought up as a Civic generation. They were too cynical, and their camaraderie rarely went beyond shared danger or a shared quest for gain. The generation being groomed to be a Civic Generation, the Progressive Generation of Thomas Edison and Theodore Roosevelt found the doors slamming shut on childhood discovery as the Civil War made such too risky for children.

The Millennial Generation is the first to have any contact with an earlier Civic generation since Jefferson's "Republicans". The Gilded may have acted in someways like a Civic generation, but it was too cut-throat in its competition and personal rivalries to express Civic values of cooperation and community.

Can the Millennial Generation be fully like GIs? Probably not. The Second Gulf War most likely inculcated some cynicism in Millennial young adults who participated in it about the trustworthiness of authority figures in the political and economic elites. Boomer Presidents have included the forgettable Bill Clinton and the awful George W. Bush.

Add to this, Boomer elites have displayed the most exploitative and dehumanizing expressions of narcissism that any generational leadership could ever show. Cultural elites among Boomers have generally been poor examples, too. The elder Idealist generation can not lead effectively in a Crisis Era unless it shows itself capable of some sacrifices of indulgence and gain. The Republican nominee for President exemplifies one of the worst tendencies in the Idealist generations: the ability to exploit and abuse people that he demands see him as a benefactor or protector.

Maybe Hillary Clinton will push some major reforms that gut the power of economic elites for the needs of the time. But that is asking for much. Boomer executives are the worst ever.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#4
GI executive leaders were no better; they drove the American economy into the ground with their top-down style and lack of innovation.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#5
(08-19-2016, 12:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: GI executive leaders were no better; they drove the American economy into the ground with their top-down style and lack of innovation.

GIs can be faulted for :

heavy use of leveraging
crass indifference to the environment
male chauvinism
bland culture
rigid conformity

If one had talent and showed it one could advance in a GI firm. If one had talent and had a mundane clerical job in a Boomer firm, one was told to use that talent to become more proficient at the mundane clerical job, and forget about getting ahead. The opportunities do not exist. Boomer executives remind me of a Soviet-style nomenklatura, an administrative class that practically became hereditary. After all, the spoiled-brat kids of executives and trophy wives will need opportunities to live somewhere near as well as they lived as kids, and they rarely are well prepared for the professions, academia, or starting businesses.

But unlike Boomers they never established such low, rigid ceilings to opportunity for the unconnected.  Membership in managerial elites in Boomer organizations became (except for go-go tech companies just getting out of the start-up phase) much more limited to a few and far better rewarded.

It is hardly surprising that Generation X has been the most entrepreneurial generation since the Lost. Most recognize that they have no chance at getting out of poverty as employees of giant corporations. But owning and operating a successful business... one can lose everything, or one can do anything from struggling like a worker to getting fantastically rich.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#6
(08-18-2016, 06:09 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(08-10-2016, 04:36 PM)Odin Wrote: I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.

According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.

One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:

Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.

"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!" Big Grin
Just have to add that I described to Chas (who has spoken of this double saeculum theory before) of what life is like here in NZ and he says we are probably in the Appolonian cycle like England which is the opposite of America which is in the Dionysian saeculum currently. I find that fascinating that we are in a different saeculum. Responding to the 4T in a different way. Fascinating stuff. I guess us Kiwi millies in that way are responding to our 4T in a way that is closer to the American GIs than American millies today. Attitude wise. Different things happening of course but we are more organized. No it is not just because we are a smaller nation. Historically NZ was not always this way. It also explains why some think I am more like a civic GI. We are in the same saeculum GI's were in at the time in America.

I liked Chas' posts.
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#7
(08-19-2016, 09:49 PM)gabrielle Wrote:
(08-18-2016, 06:09 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(08-10-2016, 04:36 PM)Odin Wrote: I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.

According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.

One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:

Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.

"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!" Big Grin
Just have to add that I described to Chas (who has spoken of this double saeculum theory before) of what life is like here in NZ and he says we are probably in the Appolonian cycle like England which is the opposite of America which is in the Dionysian saeculum currently. I find that fascinating that we are in a different saeculum. Responding to the 4T in a different way. Fascinating stuff. I guess us Kiwi millies in that way are responding to our 4T in a way that is closer to the American GIs than American millies today. Attitude wise. Different things happening of course but we are more organized. No it is not just because we are a smaller nation. Historically NZ was not always this way. It also explains why some think I am more like a civic GI. We are in the same saeculum GI's were in at the time in America.

I liked Chas' posts.
Well the offer to join the group is still available. He is there. We are talking about this theory atm as it has bee discovered through my responses and comments that i am in the Appolonian saeculum. Which explains why Eric ticks me off so muchand why i am shocked at what goes on in America. He and I are having a fascinating conversation. A mix of both saeculums and how both are viewed. One from the eyes of someone in a Dionysian saeculum and myself (seemingly the only person) who is in the opposite which is similar to the GI world (in how it is conducted). But created by boomer vision.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#8
(08-19-2016, 09:49 PM)gabrielle Wrote:
(08-18-2016, 06:09 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(08-10-2016, 04:36 PM)Odin Wrote: I've been reading The Cave And The Light, Plato Versus Aristotle And The Struggle for The Soul of Western Civilization by Arthur Herman, and I noticed that the themes of the book, the struggle between the intellectual and cultural legacies of Plato and Aristotle match very closely tho the discussions about "Dionysian/Advancement" and "Apollonian/Atonement" saecula.

According to the book the legacy of Plato represents the intuitive, inspirational, mystical, utopian, and dogmatic side of Western culture while Aristotle represents the empirical, logical, and worldly side. This seems to fit the double saeculum. In the Boomer and Romantic Awakenings we both see a revolt against the "crass" Aristotelian "materialism" of the previous saeculum.

One interesting bit I just read that should strike a chord with the Boomers here, where they are talking about the spiritual bankruptcy of Neoclassical art and the failure of the French Revolution:

Quote:What was needed instead was a revolution lead by poets and artists like Shelley and his friends. Then, he believed, humanity would achieve the future Kant had foreseen, a world of perpetual peace and harmony. Mankind would witness the overthrow of intellectual as well as political tyranny and the establishment of the rights of man and - with a nod to Mary Wollstonecraft - the rights of woman. The dream that haunted the Platonic imagination since St. Augustine, of an Eternal City united by love and equality and justice, would be realized with the poets (as opposed to God or the theologians) leading the way.

"DAMN SMELLY HIPPIES!!!" Big Grin
Just have to add that I described to Chas (who has spoken of this double saeculum theory before) of what life is like here in NZ and he says we are probably in the Appolonian cycle like England which is the opposite of America which is in the Dionysian saeculum currently. I find that fascinating that we are in a different saeculum. Responding to the 4T in a different way. Fascinating stuff. I guess us Kiwi millies in that way are responding to our 4T in a way that is closer to the American GIs than American millies today. Attitude wise. Different things happening of course but we are more organized. No it is not just because we are a smaller nation. Historically NZ was not always this way. It also explains why some think I am more like a civic GI. We are in the same saeculum GI's were in at the time in America.

I liked Chas' posts.

Yeah, I really miss his stuff.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#9
(08-19-2016, 09:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(08-19-2016, 12:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: GI executive leaders were no better; they drove the American economy into the ground with their top-down style and lack of innovation.

GIs can be faulted for :

heavy use of leveraging
crass indifference to the environment
male chauvinism
bland culture
rigid conformity

If one had talent and showed it one could advance in a GI firm. If one had talent and had a mundane clerical job in a Boomer firm, one was told to use that talent to become more proficient at the mundane clerical job, and forget about getting ahead. The opportunities do not exist. Boomer executives remind me of a Soviet-style nomenklatura, an administrative class that practically became hereditary. After all, the spoiled-brat kids of executives and trophy wives will need opportunities to live somewhere near as well as they lived as kids, and they rarely are well prepared for the professions, academia, or starting businesses.

But unlike Boomers they never established such low, rigid ceilings to opportunity for the unconnected.  Membership in managerial elites in Boomer organizations became (except for go-go tech companies just getting out of the start-up phase) much more limited to a few and far better rewarded.

It is hardly surprising that Generation X has been the most entrepreneurial generation since the Lost. Most recognize that they have no chance at getting out of poverty as employees of giant corporations. But owning and operating a successful business... one can lose everything, or one can do anything from struggling like a worker to getting fantastically rich.

The most powerful executives of recent years were Silents. No doubt some red Boomers are involved in big business, and they are as you say. Blue Boomers are probably not even corporate executives at all, but involved in non-profits or the arts. Nowadays Xers are probably frequently corporate leaders too, and they are hooked on the Reagan memes. I don't know how you could prove that Boomer executives don't allow employees to advance. Most of the social immobility in America today is due to the low wages and high prices for most people, established by the Reagan memes.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#10
Here is what Chas has said on the theory as of late.

There, now let us begin.

When talking about Apollonian aspects of a saeculum, it's helpful to do a brief catch up on Apollo as a figure.

Apollo, the sun god, the god of light, music, poetry, medicine, prophesy, archery, knowledge, and plague.

What becomes apparent if one studies the myths surrounding Apollo, is that he seems a very split god. He has an impetuous youth where he did a lot of "naughty" things, but later on matures and begins to try and atones for his imperfections earlier on. Of all the Greek Gods, he's the least static in this respect as he's one that grows out of his childishness into greater maturity. Other gods tend to be static and unchanging, but here Apollo shows that the possibility for self-betterment and a better future is indeed possible.

One of the first stories we should concern ourselves with his earlier impetuous youth is that of his finding and killing the the Pytho, a gigantic snake that he killed on the sacred ground at Delphi. Because he killed the snake on sacred ground (another thing to note is that snakes in the ancient world prior to the introduction of the Abrahamic faiths were seen as having healing powers), Apollo had to do penance for such a disrespect, and so Apollo buried the Pytho in a crack in the earth underneath Delphi, from which the smell of the decaying matter of the snake wafted up above and permeated the area. Apollo then established a temple on the sacred spot, which became devoted to celebrating his oracular gifts which he could bestow on humans. Any priestess who inhaled the smell of the decaying Pytho from underneath Delphi, would then tell of the future as a gift from Apollo. These priestesses were called Pythia, and their predictions written down by priests in rhymes for visitors to keep and take heed from. Here we see Apollo make a mistake, realize what he's done as wrong and move to correct his mistake.

Other stories involving his wild impetuous youth such as his cruelty towards poor Echo (cursing her to repeat only what others have said for spurning him), his obsession with the nymph Daphne (which was aided by Eros/Cupid hitting him with a love arrow after Apollo scolded Eros/Cupid for being too careless with it; and Daphne turning into the laurel tree to avoid Apollo's unwanted advances), his love for the beautiful Hyacinth who died all too soon, and many many more lovers. As many of his lovers were turned to plants, I believe I should mention that while Apollo could indeed bring good health, he equally bring plague and destruction. It's interesting to see what words came from Apollo and what words likely influenced the naming of Apollo, Apollo.

While the Greeks never abandoned their belief on Apollo's oracular traditions, as they discovered Philosophy and began moving towards more logic-oriented spheres of life, Apollo likewise matured with them into a god more about harmony, logic, knowledge, moderation, and legalism. In the Oresteia, it is Apollo who pleads for Athena to intervene and try Orestes, and it is Apollo who acts as Orestes' defense lawyer.

As a god of knowledge, Apollo became the leader of the muses, who each ruled a liberal art for study.

When speaking about Apollonian tendencies it is more about what Apollo became, rather than what he started out as. He became a god of harmony, logic, knowledge, moderation, and legalism; and saeculums with an Apollonian character value these things--with an undercurrent of a desire of fortune telling and forward future oriented looking aspects where a bright beautiful tomorrow better than the horrible past lays waiting for us.

To this end when he later became associated with the sun, the sun in symbolism began reflecting these traits in reference to Apollo.

At the same time Apollo has been critiqued by Dionysian saeculums as being too much about order and control--to the point where human emotion is stifled.

In terms of literary themes, Apollonian themes in literature tend to revolve around traditional comedies, where order is made out of chaos, and the "way of the world" is respected and venerated as everyone meets their righteous end and punished should they deserve it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#11
From Chas: "The general idea is that an Apollonian saeculum is forward looking and outer-driven, moving from chaos to order."
"A Dionysian saeculum being the opposite of that, backward looking and inner focused, moving from order to chaos"

This is just for those who have not been exposed to this theory. It was recently explained to me by Chas because he said I reminded him of the attitude from America's great power saeculum. England and NZ are closely tied and are currently going through an Appolonian saeculum. America is going through a Dionysian saeculum which looks like chaos and insanity to Appolonians. No I am not the only one who sees it that way. I merely go by comments from others here in NZ and overseas as well. My thoughts included yes.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#12
From Chas: "So first we're going to start with the Dionysian side. Thus, without further ado... let's start talking about Dionysus.
The whole Dionysian name comes from the name of the Greek God Dionysus, Bacchus to the Romans, who if you aren't aware of classical mythology, was the god of wine, agriculture, fertility of nature, and of theatre. He was also a figure who was part of the Mystery Religions in the ancient worlds (what we might call Mysticism today) such as those practiced at Eleusis which revolved around pursuing ecstasy, personal delivery from the daily world through physical or spiritual intoxication, and initiation into secret rites.
In the most popular version of Dionysus' birth, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and a mortal woman named Semele (daughter of Cadmus of Thebes). After having lain with Zeus, she asked to see Zeus in all his glory out of the mortal disguise he was wearing to seduce her. Zeus warned her that mortals couldn't bear to see the full force of the god in all their splendor. But she insisted, and so Zeus complied, and she was killed by Zeus' lightning bolts when he revealed his true form to her. Dionysus was still in her womb when that happened. Zeus, sensing that the baby was a god in the making, took the child out of Semele and put Dionysus in his thigh to finish growing (thigh, yes... rather close there to something, isn't it). After Zeus gives birth to Dionysus, he then leaves Dionysus to be raised by a group of nymphs.
In a less popular, but more overtly religious version of Dionysus' birth, Zagreus is the son of Zeus and his niece, Persephone (the Goddess of Spring), the Queen of the Underworld and his brother Hades' wife. He's born normally in this version of the story to Persephone. However, Hera, hearing of Zagreus' birth, sets some toys at the entrance to the Underworld to lure the infant god out. The trap works and once he's playing with the toys, Hera sets some Titans on the infant god to rip him to shreds; except for his heart, which is saved by either Athena, Rhea, or Demeter depending upon the version of the story. Zeus then takes that heart and plants it inside of Semele to grow another body, being born as Dionysus Zagreus (explaining how a god and a mortal relationship birthed a god and not a demi-god). The fate of Semele remains unchanged. Hence, Dionysus is often referred to as Dionysus Zagreus the "twice born" in the more religious expressions of his character.
Later in life, Dionysus returned to Thebes, his birthplace, where his cousin Pentheus was now king. He had returned to punish the women of Thebes for denying that he was a god born of a god. He thus made them go crazed and forced them to worship him in their altered state of minds (recall he's the god of finding personal freedom through intoxication). But he had more plans than just that. Doing so he provoked his cousin Pentheus who was appalled at even his own mother, Agave, going mad with intoxicated worship of Dionysus. Still in denial that his cousin Dionysus was a god, he attempted to stop the women and elder statesmen from fleeing the city and going out into the wilderness to worship Dionysus. Dionysus is enraged at Pentheus' denials and so punishes him by having the intoxicated women under his spell, including Pentheus' mother, Agave, turn on and kill Pentheus--ripping him from limb to limb with their bare hands. It is after Pentheus has been torn to pieces, that Dionysus lets his control over the women up, who then realize to their horror--especially Agave--what they've done. And thus Dionysus' punishment is complete.
On the one hand, Dionysus represents Freedom, freedom from restrictive social controls of the state and family as well as other societal norms--a freedom to indulge in otherwise cultural taboos by means of revelry and catharsis. However there is also a warning, too much Freedom can be slavery, as Dionysus can enslave those who over-indulge to excess."

From Chas: "I should also note that in religious circles of that day and age, Dionysus as a fertility god, was ritualistically sacrificed and dismembered each and every year at the end of the harvest, and reborn again come the Spring. In fact that is how theatre began as an art form, as a ritual re-enactment of Dionysus Zagreus' dismemberment which grew increasingly more and more complex until at long last it began telling other stories that had similar themes until you get to the formation of Theatre itself, specifically with regards to the development of Tragedy first and foremost which took its themes and ideas from that ritual of killing of Dionysus Zagreus to renew the fertility of the community."

"Okay, so now I've talked about Dionysus and what he represented as a cultural touchstone to the Greeco-Roman classical world.

He has since then been used as a touchstone reference by Western Civilization as a reference to any point in time when people go "mad", using intoxicating methods in search of some greater truth or "back to nature" fleeing to the wilderness types. But also as an explanation for the Grecco-Roman acceptance of Christ and the communion ceremony in the early days of Christianity.

For any period where the desire by a group to break away from societal norms and embrace the chaos of the wilderness, you can call that Dionysian.

For the celebration of the Cathartic tragic ideas of sacrifice of the individual to save the larger community, that is also Dionysian."

"How this ties into our current Generational Theory. Think about America's past 2T--it was extremely Dionysian. Using music as a medium, Rock 'n' Roll singers and performers became the new Dionysus, encouraging the youth, African-American, and women in society to throw off the constraints of societal norms, and to seek truth through mind-altering drugs (aka intoxication) and new truths in the vast wildernesses outside of the city.

"And we have been wedded to that Dionysian thematic ideology ever since, playing out those who have fled to the wilderness to be free from Family, the State, and Societal Norms... and in so doing, tearing up and destroying those things as we pull them apart chaotically--not realizing what we've done, until it's too late--thus having been enslaved to our desires for freedom. And one day we'll witness the horror in our bloodied hands and scream at what we have wrought with our own hands."
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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