"Fake News": The Emergence of a Post-Fact World

[TeacherinExile]

In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Quote:The White House Press corps wanted to know what being put “on notice” entailed, and Spicer responded by claiming that Iran’s government took actions against a U.S. naval vessel, which would be an act of war. “I think General Flynn was really clear yesterday that Iran has violated the Joint Resolution that Iran’s additional hostile actions that it took against our navy vessel [bold mine-DL] are ones that we are very clear are not going to sit by and take,” he said.

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

[Odin]

(02-02-2017, 04:35 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Quote:The White House Press corps wanted to know what being put “on notice” entailed, and Spicer responded by claiming that Iran’s government took actions against a U.S. naval vessel, which would be an act of war. “I think General Flynn was really clear yesterday that Iran has violated the Joint Resolution that Iran’s additional hostile actions that it took against our navy vessel [bold mine-DL] are ones that we are very clear are not going to sit by and take,” he said.

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

Bannon wants a "holy war" with Islam and he'll find a way to get one.

[SomeGuy]

(02-02-2017, 09:10 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 04:35 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Quote:The White House Press corps wanted to know what being put “on notice” entailed, and Spicer responded by claiming that Iran’s government took actions against a U.S. naval vessel, which would be an act of war. “I think General Flynn was really clear yesterday that Iran has violated the Joint Resolution that Iran’s additional hostile actions that it took against our navy vessel [bold mine-DL] are ones that we are very clear are not going to sit by and take,” he said.

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

Bannon wants a "holy war" with Islam and he'll find a way to get one.

Maybe China, too.

[Odin]

Speaking of Bannon, guess who's on the new issue of Time?  



These guys are going to regret shitting on the media.

[SomeGuy]

Quote:These guys are going to regret shitting on the media.

Ya never know, it could be the other way round.

[Ragnarök_62]

(02-02-2017, 09:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:These guys are going to regret shitting on the media.

Ya never know, it could be the other way round.

Rachel Mad Cow's performance if you will on election night pretty much speaks for it self.  Talk about going off the deep end. I dare say she shat on herself.

[SomeGuy]

I've always found that sort of namecalling deeply childish.  Not least because my last name is Goodspeed and I didn't run particularly fast as a child, so I had to listen to a lot of it myself.

That being said, I have periodically watched those journalists-and-celebrities-react-to-Trump's-election videos people have made on Youtube, and it always cheers me right up.  The montage of The Young Turks throughout the night is a particular favorite.

[Galen]

(02-02-2017, 09:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:These guys are going to regret shitting on the media.

Ya never know, it could be the other way round.

So far Trump seems to be getting better results by shitting on the media.  I consider it a major bonus of the Trump Administration when he takes a big dump on the media.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-02-2017, 09:34 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:10 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 04:35 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Quote:The White House Press corps wanted to know what being put “on notice” entailed, and Spicer responded by claiming that Iran’s government took actions against a U.S. naval vessel, which would be an act of war. “I think General Flynn was really clear yesterday that Iran has violated the Joint Resolution that Iran’s additional hostile actions that it took against our navy vessel [bold mine-DL] are ones that we are very clear are not going to sit by and take,” he said.

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

Bannon wants a "holy war" with Islam and he'll find a way to get one.

Maybe China, too.

Excellent link, though I wish you had posted it under the thread "Trump, Bannon, and the Coming Crisis" (Minor quibble, to be sure.)  I'd love to see more discussion about "The Clash of Civilizations," which I don't hold much store by--Huntington's premise.  The outsized role of Bannon in national security matters is quite troubling, as he is a political operative, first and foremost.  What should we make of Sean Spicer's offhand remark that the U.S. would use armed force to “defend international territories from being taken over?”  We're a long way from the Monroe Doctrine now, aren't we?  And isn't "international territories" an oxymoron?

[Eric the Green]

(02-03-2017, 11:04 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:34 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:10 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 04:35 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Quote:The White House Press corps wanted to know what being put “on notice” entailed, and Spicer responded by claiming that Iran’s government took actions against a U.S. naval vessel, which would be an act of war. “I think General Flynn was really clear yesterday that Iran has violated the Joint Resolution that Iran’s additional hostile actions that it took against our navy vessel [bold mine-DL] are ones that we are very clear are not going to sit by and take,” he said.

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

Bannon wants a "holy war" with Islam and he'll find a way to get one.

Maybe China, too.

Excellent link, though I wish you had posted it under the thread "Trump, Bannon, and the Coming Crisis" (Minor quibble, to be sure.)  I'd love to see more discussion about "The Clash of Civilizations," which I don't hold much store by--Huntington's premise.  The outsized role of Bannon in national security matters is quite troubling, as he is a political operative, first and foremost.  What should we make of Sean Spicer's offhand remark that the U.S. would use armed force to “defend international territories from being taken over?”  We're a long way from the Monroe Doctrine now, aren't we?  And isn't "international territories" an oxymoron?

Yes, who knows what a neophyte like Drump and his neophyte flunkies like Bannon might do. Here Drump promises not to be engaged in nation building and "America First!" and yet his cronies he surrounds himself with want war at every opportunity. And we know Drump tends to cause trouble, whatever his beliefs are. Now he wants to send troops to Mexico, and pick a fight with Austrailia too.

[Eric the Green]

(02-02-2017, 10:15 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

Quote:These guys are going to regret shitting on the media.

Ya never know, it could be the other way round.

Rachel Mad Cow's performance if you will on election night pretty much speaks for it self.  Talk about going off the deep end. I dare say she shat on herself.

I could only wish for 100 more like her.

[SomeGuy]

(02-03-2017, 11:04 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:34 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:10 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 04:35 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Quote:The White House Press corps wanted to know what being put “on notice” entailed, and Spicer responded by claiming that Iran’s government took actions against a U.S. naval vessel, which would be an act of war. “I think General Flynn was really clear yesterday that Iran has violated the Joint Resolution that Iran’s additional hostile actions that it took against our navy vessel [bold mine-DL] are ones that we are very clear are not going to sit by and take,” he said.

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

Bannon wants a "holy war" with Islam and he'll find a way to get one.

Maybe China, too.

Excellent link, though I wish you had posted it under the thread "Trump, Bannon, and the Coming Crisis" (Minor quibble, to be sure.)  I'd love to see more discussion about "The Clash of Civilizations," which I don't hold much store by--Huntington's premise.  The outsized role of Bannon in national security matters is quite troubling, as he is a political operative, first and foremost.  What should we make of Sean Spicer's offhand remark that the U.S. would use armed force to “defend international territories from being taken over?”  We're a long way from the Monroe Doctrine now, aren't we?  And isn't "international territories" an oxymoron?

It was in direct response to something posted here, but yes, more suited to the other thread, of whose existence I was not aware when I posted it.

There is such a thing as an "international territory", but I suspect what he meant was "foreign" (in relation to the US) territories being taken over, under the assumption that China's claims to those features in the South China Sea is illegitimate.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-03-2017, 12:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 11:04 AM)TeacherinExile Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:34 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 09:10 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-02-2017, 04:35 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: In an earlier post on this thread I posed a not-altogether rhetorical question: Why does it matter, then, "fake news?"

My concern is not the demonstrably false news reports emanating from either the media or the Trump administration when they involve sideshows, such as the size of an inaugural crowd or the removal of a civil rights icon's bust from the Oval Office.  In the larger scheme of things, this is so much "white noise."  Of much deeper concern to me is what happens when misinformation, deception, or lies impact directly on policy making at the highest levels of government.  In other words, what happens when the stakes are much, much higher?

Only recently, just such a substantive "story" (quotation marks intended) has been peddled first by FOX News and then by national security advisor Michael Flynn:

This article appeared in The American Conservative today: "The Trump Administration’s Lies About Iran"

Flynn’s dishonest claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi vessel was an “Iranian action” has morphed into an even more provocative, false claim from the Press Secretary today:

Spicer has managed to combine Flynn’s nonsensical statement blaming Iran for the attack with the garbage analysis I mentioned earlier in the week that the attack had been intended for a U.S. ship, and he has produced something even more divorced from reality. No U.S. ship was attacked or targeted by anyone, Iran wasn’t responsible for the attack that did happen, and yet according to the Trump White House Iran took “hostile actions” against one of our ships. This is as blatant a lie as any that Spicer has told over the last two weeks, and it is on a matter of the greatest importance. The Trump administration is conjuring up “hostile actions” against a U.S. vessel out of thin air, and they appear to be doing so for no other reason than to stoke tensions and make conflict with Iran more likely...

You can read further at this link: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/l...bout-iran/

Baby Boomers have seen this movie before: the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964.  (I was only ten at the time, too young and naïve to understand that a minor naval skirmish had been used by the Johnson administration as a pretext for direct involvement by US armed forces in the Vietnam War.)

See "The Truth about Tonkin," published by the U.S. Naval Institute in February 2008.  This long-form analysis (with footnotes) begins as follows:

Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

Is the Trump administration setting us up for still another conflict in the Greater Middle East, this time with our long-time nemesis, Iran?  It's beginning to appear that way.  And how does that square with his campaign rhetoric?

Bannon wants a "holy war" with Islam and he'll find a way to get one.

Maybe China, too.

Excellent link, though I wish you had posted it under the thread "Trump, Bannon, and the Coming Crisis" (Minor quibble, to be sure.)  I'd love to see more discussion about "The Clash of Civilizations," which I don't hold much store by--Huntington's premise.  The outsized role of Bannon in national security matters is quite troubling, as he is a political operative, first and foremost.  What should we make of Sean Spicer's offhand remark that the U.S. would use armed force to “defend international territories from being taken over?”  We're a long way from the Monroe Doctrine now, aren't we?  And isn't "international territories" an oxymoron?

It was in direct response to something posted here, but yes, more suited to the other thread, of whose existence I was not aware when I posted it.

There is such a thing as an "international territory", but I suspect what he meant was "foreign" (in relation to the US) territories being taken over, under the assumption that China's claims to those features in the South China Sea is illegitimate.

By way of clarification (and edification for me), can you provide a citation for "international territory" as the accepted nomenclature?  I thought "international waters" was the right phrase.  Is it a difference without a distinction?

[SomeGuy]

No, they are not the same thing.  An international territory is a piece of land that enjoys certain privileges of extraterritoriality, as governed by international law or treaty between two or more nations.  International waters are regions outside of national borders all together, terra nullius.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-03-2017, 12:17 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: No, they are not the same thing.  An international territory is a piece of land that enjoys certain privileges of extraterritoriality, as governed by international law or treaty between two or more nations.  International waters are regions outside of national borders all together, terra nullius.

Thanks.  So do these "international territories" loom large as potential theaters of war between regional powers (U.S., China, Russia)?  And how does that fit in with Bannon's alleged "clash of civilizations"?  (Time to re-read Huntington's book, I guess.)

[SomeGuy]

(02-03-2017, 12:24 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 12:17 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: No, they are not the same thing.  An international territory is a piece of land that enjoys certain privileges of extraterritoriality, as governed by international law or treaty between two or more nations.  International waters are regions outside of national borders all together, terra nullius.

Thanks.  So do these "international territories" loom large as potential theaters of war between regional powers (U.S., China, Russia)?  And how does that fit in with Bannon's alleged "clash of civilizations"?  (Time to re-read Huntington's book, I guess.)

No, like I said, "international territories" are not an oxymoron, but they're not what he was (presumably, unless he's worried about China invading the UN building or something) talking about.

[Odin]

(02-03-2017, 02:04 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: OT ... he could use a good dermatologist.

I think he could lay off the liquor, he looks like an alcoholic.

[SomeGuy]

(02-03-2017, 02:06 PM)Odin Wrote:

(02-03-2017, 02:04 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: OT ... he could use a good dermatologist.

I think he could lay off the liquor, he looks like an alcoholic.

Whaddya expect, he's Irish (American)!  A friend of mine is only 30 and well on his way there (of course, he also got blown up by a grenade, so he has that excuse).