Trump Trainwreck - Ongoing diary of betrayal and evil

[David Horn]

(02-14-2017, 07:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... If this boils down to the haves vs the have nots, blues are going to freak over how many haves there are in America. According to the last election, there are 62,000,000 for sure who voted for Trump and several million more who voted Libertarian.

Still TBD is the depth of support for Trump.  Did enough of his voters vote for chaos (thy're about to get it)?  How many voted for bigger paychecks or better jobs (neither is likely)?  In six months, we'll have a good handle on both questions.  Trump is already below water on job approval and popularity.  For a new POTUS, this is supposed to be the high water mark for both.

So, don't bet big.

[David Horn]

(02-15-2017, 01:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you think that I'd have an issue with bombing the Russian people, banning Russian people from entering this country or the CIA assassinating Putin? Nope. I wouldn't have an issue with any of them. As far as you guys, you guys don't give a shit about anything other than yourselves and you'd go along with anything that helps the Democratic party and keeps their programs funded and all their special rules and protections that favor minorities and women in place. I wonder how much dirt Putin had on Hilary Clinton and the entire Democratic party that he could have used to control all of them? What do you think about all these government leaks lately and all the blue foolishness that must be helping ISIS recruiting (signs of America weakening in its resolve to destroy them and the blue Muslim sob stories of them being abused and mistreated) and Russian propaganda as well?

Is ISIS the best you've got, because Putin is a non-starter?  If Putin had the goods on Hillary, as he very well may on Trump, he would have helped to get her elected instead of undermining her bid.  It's a plus for a dictator to have a puppet running the governemnt of his most serious adversary.

Read what you you wrote, and ask how much sense it makes.

[David Horn]

(02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.

You're starting to sound scary.  Sorry, but saying a neo-Stalin with nuclear weaplns is a good thing is antithetical to everytbing the country stands for.

[David Horn]

(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of radical Islam.

They eat their own.  Radical Islam is like any other radical movment.  It needs fierce oppositon to validate it.  We might do better by following the example of Charlie Hebdo, and make them out to be the buffoons they really are.  It's also stupid to persecute other Muslims for just being Muslims.  That's their primary recruitment tool.

[Eric the Green]

(02-16-2017, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-15-2017, 01:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you think that I'd have an issue with bombing the Russian people, banning Russian people from entering this country or the CIA assassinating Putin? Nope. I wouldn't have an issue with any of them. As far as you guys, you guys don't give a shit about anything other than yourselves and you'd go along with anything that helps the Democratic party and keeps their programs funded and all their special rules and protections that favor minorities and women in place. I wonder how much dirt Putin had on Hilary Clinton and the entire Democratic party that he could have used to control all of them? What do you think about all these government leaks lately and all the blue foolishness that must be helping ISIS recruiting (signs of America weakening in its resolve to destroy them and the blue Muslim sob stories of them being abused and mistreated) and Russian propaganda as well?

Is ISIS the best you've got, because Putin is a non-starter?  If Putin had the goods on Hillary, as he very well may on Trump, he would have helped to get her elected instead of undermining her bid.  It's a plus for a dictator to have a puppet running the governemnt of his most serious adversary.

Read what you you wrote, and ask how much sense it makes.

This attitude on the part of the 40% is killing us. No, Classic Xer does not make sense. We don't give a shit about anything other than ourselves, yet we are interested that people of color and women have rights? "Government leaks" rather than misconduct by our president and his staff is the issue? Democrats are recruiting for ISIS? Muslims are not mistreated? Irrelevant and distorted wikileaks could have controlled the entire Democratic Party?

Can the USA ever progress again? That is the issue for this 4T (2008-2029), pure and simple. If not, then it's time to desert this sinking ship. Turn it over to the racist oligarchs and let them pollute themselves to death.

[Eric the Green]

(02-16-2017, 03:40 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 03:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 02:09 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria.  If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.

Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of  radical Islam.

That's not my intent because military action is the wrong tool. Basically, the people there need to sort their own stuff out because we can't fix that place. It's beyond recall. I'm just demand we stop being 5 times as stupid as Russia.  Besides screw Israel.  I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and the United States. I'm not a citizen of the world and of course not a citizen of Israel. If Israel wants to build settlements, fine, just let them get the blow-back. We also need to stop  being associated with lightning rod issues like Israel.

What was your intent? Withdraw and watch as radical Islam takes control over most of the Middle East. Can you imagine what the world be like with radical Islamic's who are armed with nukes? A scary new world with much higher stakes than the sorta scary old world that we grew up in. I don't consider myself to be a citizen of the world either. However, I'm not foolish enough to ignore history and a couple of World Wars that could have been prevented or significantly reduced with the existence of a super power like us today. We (us and all our allies) have unbelievable military power that can be used against radical Islam within the Middle East. It's better to deal with them now over there.

1. Like I told Eric, I'd just let Russia and Iran take care of Syria.  Both of those countries do not want radical Islam, like IS. So, for Syria, just let Assad,Russia, and Iran  handle that situation.  Now, since they'll screw up IS in Syria, that takes the pressure of the pieces of Iraq. Iraq isn't even a proper country. So. let's just let the Kurds or Turkey have that one.  You can't pick both, it has to be either Turkey or the Kurds. I'd just let the spooks decide which one is best to support with arm shipments.  No bombings , drones, etc. Afghanistan, what do you think will work? We've been there a long time and nothing's worked so far.  Libya is a real stupid thing.  We killed Qaddafi and left a vacuum for IS.  That was just so brilliant. I can't fix that either. That's why I just said, let it go. There's nothing to fix it. The Super Power thingie is a myth.  Do superpowers have 3rd world infrastructure like that damn in California and I-35 in the twin cities?  The US spends more on "defense" than the rest of the world.  Of course we're not dealing with them "over there".  Orlando's proof of that. The best way to keep 'em out is to not let them in to begin with. I do not want the US to suffer the same fate as Europe.  Europe just fucked itself in the ass with Merkel's madness.  The best thing we can do wrt safety from radical Islam is to keep it out. That means no refugees allowed. Let's learn that lesson from Europe.  Yeah, I know I might have triggered any special snowflakes, but oh well.  This is where outcomes determine the means. Now, you ask, about retaliation. Yeah, sure, that's what drones and the Spec/OPS are for. It's 4th generation warfare, so 4th generation tactics are how you do it.

(renumbered since you had no #2 here)

I AM a citizen of the world. But that means I am not on board with one or a group of powerful countries dominating and imposing their will on others, including the USA.

Unfortunately, Assad can't take care of anything. He is a war criminal only interested in wiping out the Arab Spring democratic rebellion against him. I have seen zero indication that Russia is interested in anything other than wiping out this democratic rebellion against Assad. Iran is helping wipe out the IS in Iraq, though not in Syria. But I am not fine with letting Iran take over Iraq or wipe out Sunnis there. Iran and its militias alone can't be trusted.

I understand your idea that we should let the Middle East people wipe out the IS, and not be involved. You may be right. I just think people ought to be informed on the actual facts there, and not lie and confuse things in order to convince Americans to stay out of there.

We did not "kill Qaddafi." This is the kind of stuff I mean. We can disagree whether the USA should have had any involvement there in 2011. We did do some bombing early, but it was the Libyans who rebelled, and it was the Libyans who killed Qaddafi, not the USA. Recognize the fact that many people in the Middle East want to move forward into democracy. It is not a Western idea now; it's universal. People want it, and they rise up. It's only a matter of time. Now the question is whether the USA will keep its commitment to democracy and be a beacon to the world, or lose it.

Going along with Trump's madness of "keeping them out" is un-American. Refugees need our help. They are victims of Assad and other terrorists. I disagree with keeping Jews out during the Holocaust, and I disagree with keeping Syrians out during this latest holocaust. But they and all immigrants need to be well vetted, airports need to be guarded against weapons and terrorists, intelligence needs to be used. Obama and Co. were doing all that well. Keeping Muslims out only increases the terrorists' ability to recruit more terrorists to attack us and to build the IS. Trump's madness has zero effect on safety, is aimed at the wrong targets, and inflames the Muslims against us instead of the IS.

Quote:2. Uh, you indicated earlier a concern about balanced budgets.  How about we cut military spending to achieve balanced budgets. I'd of course use taxes to achieve some balance. How about debt free money? And of course getting rid health insurance companies,VA,medicaid and just have a single proven program do all that stuff?

That's right.

Quote:3. I think the meme of "if we don't meddle in a bunch of places" .... that we'll get another World War.  Papa Uncle Sam has to keep all the children of the world in their place. I find that attitude rather weird and probably a meme brought into being by PNAC or something.  PNAC thinks just like that. Their platform is the US always , always knows what's best for a country because we're a benevolent leech that steals with the help of assorted local elites other countries' stuff.

One time, about 75 years ago now, we got a world war because we REFUSED to "meddle." It's a question of when and where. I don't claim to know for sure where the balance is. The USA has meddled way too much. But to just withdraw into our own country is not the answer. We are a vital part of keeping world order and justice. We can't go it alone, as the all-knowing Papa, but we can't be ostriches. It IS one world, whether people like it or not. We are all involved with all the world, in every way. It is abundantly clear that the USA is no better than any country. There's no reason for people to identify with their country.

War is a last resort; peace is the best way. Let that be our guide. But hiding behind walls will just allow aggressive tyrannies to fester and grow. Laws are needed at home to restrain the greedy, violent and hateful. Laws are needed abroad for the same reason.

[Eric the Green]

What's up with Democrats that they can't block creepy legislation like this????


Trump just repealed Obama rule requiring oil companies to disclose payments to foreign governments
Tom Cahill | February 14, 2017

President Donald Trump just signed legislation that will allow oil companies to get away with corruption unscathed.

The bill Trump just signed would repeal a 2010 Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) regulation implemented as a result of the passage of the Dodd-Frank financial reform law, that requires fossil fuel companies publicly disclose any and all payments to foreign governments.

“We’re bringing back jobs big league,” Trump said at the signing ceremony. “We’re bringing them back at the plant level, we’re bringing them back at the mine level. The energy jobs are coming back.”

While both Trump along with Rep.Bill Huizenga (R-Michigan), the author of the bill, touted its alleged positive impact on job growth, Senate Democrats blasted the legislation as a means of enabling corruption on a massive scale.

“The rule they’re trying to repeal protects U.S. citizens and investors from having millions of their dollars vanished into the pockets of corrupt foreign oligarchs,” said Senare Banking Committee ranking member Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio). “This kind of transparency is essential to combating waste, fraud, corruption and mismanagement.”

Oil companies will likely be pleased by the repeal of the SEC regulation. On the corporate transparency section of its website, ExxonMobil (the company Secretary of State Rex Tillerson used to lead) celebrated a court’s decision to strike down the foreign payments rule, and advocated for a toothless foreign disclosure rule authored by the American Petroleum Institute — the chief lobbyist for fossil fuel companies.

Both President Trump and Republican leaders in both houses of Congress have promised to wage war on environmental and financial regulations during their tenure, claiming that measures implemented during the Obama administration to safeguard from corporate abuse are harmful to the economy.


Tom Cahill is a writer for US Uncut based in the Pacific Northwest. He specializes in coverage of political, economic, and environmental news. You can contact him via email at tom.v.cahill@gmail.com
http://usuncut.com/politics/trump-oil-companies/

[Eric the Green]

Thor Blevins
February 14 at 1:42am · Kapitangan, Philippines ·
Time to cook that goose, quote: "Information presently public and available confirms that Erik Prince, Rudy Giuliani, and Donald Trump conspired to intimidate FBI Director James Comey into interfering in, and thus directly affecting, the 2016 presidential election. This conspiracy was made possible with the assistance of officers in the New York Police Department and agents within the New York field office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. All of the major actors in the conspiracy have already confessed to its particulars either in word or in deed; moreover, all of the major actors have publicly exhibited consciousness of guilt after the fact. This assessment has already been the subject of articles in news outlets on both sides of the political spectrum, but has not yet received substantial investigation by major media.
While a full summary of the Prince-Giuliani-Trump conspiracy would require a longer discourse, the actions of these men, along with multiple still-anonymous actors, can be summarized in five paragraphs. It will be for journalists with more resources than this writer to follow up on these leads—and, moreover, to see how this domestic conspiracy dovetails with the Trump-Russia controversy, though this too is briefly addressed below.
In addition to the paragraphs here, this article incorporates its three predecessors (I, II, III).
1. As reported by the New York Times, FBI Director James Comey released his now-infamous October 27th letter in substantial part because he had determined that “word of the new emails [found on Anthony Weiner’s computer]...was sure to leak out.” Comey worried that if the leak occurred at a time when the nature and evidentiary value of the “new” emails was unknown, he “risked being accused of misleading Congress and the public ahead of an election.” By October 27th, the FBI had had access to Weiner’s computer—which it originally received from NYPD—since October 3rd, during which interval the Bureau had both the time and IT know-how to determine that the “new” emails in its possession were in fact duplicate emails from accounts already revealed to the Bureau by Clinton, her aide Huma Abedin, and the State Department. However, when Comey was briefed on the case by agents from the New York field office on October 26th, he discovered that not only had this IT work not been done, but in fact no warrant to seize the full emails had been sought, no permission to read the emails had been requested from cooperating witnesses Weiner and Abedin, and indeed nothing but a summary of the emails’ “meta-data” (non-content header information) had been prepared by his agents. The result of this investigative nonfeasance was that Comey feared he would not be able to get a warrant for the emails and confirm them as duplicates prior to Election Day—a fact that would allow anti-Clinton elements within NYPD and the FBI, and Trump surrogates and advisers with sources in these organizations, to mischaracterize the “new” emails in a way that would swing the election to Trump. As long as the Clinton investigation remained open, Comey would not be able to respond to such misinformation; his only hope of keeping public discussion of the “new” emails within the sphere of reality was to use the cover of a prior promise to Congress to speak publicly about an ongoing investigation—and then close that investigation in short order.
2. The effort to intimidate Comey into publicly commenting on the Clinton case—a win-win scenario for Trump, as either a comment from Comey or silence from Comey (the latter coupled with inaccurate, Hatch Act-violative leaks by the FBI, NYPD, and/or the Trump campaign) would sink Clinton—began concurrent to Comey’s October 26th briefing on the Clinton case. In an October 25th Fox & Friends appearance and an October 26th appearance on Fox News with Martha McCallum, Rudy Giuliani, one of Trump’s closest advisers, began teasing an October “surprise” which, Giuliani said, would turn the tide against Hillary Clinton. He refused to say what the forthcoming surprise would be, but he indicated that it would be coming in just a few days. Meanwhile, Erik Prince—the founder of Blackwater private security, one of Trump’s biggest donors, a conspiracy theorist who’d previously accused Huma Abedin of being a terrorist in the employ of the Muslim Brotherhood, and a man who blamed Clinton family friend and former Clinton Chief of Staff Leon Panetta for outing him as a CIA asset in 2009—was positioning himself to play an important role. Just as Giuliani had boasted on the Mark Larson radio program on October 28th that he had sources within the FBI—active agents—who had told him of virulent anti-Clinton sentiment in the New York field office and an internal rebellion against Comey’s July decision not to indict Clinton, Prince claimed to have sources within the Weiner investigation who were illegally leaking information to him. In Prince’s case, the sources were within NYPD, and the information he relayed from them to Breitbart News on November 4th—when it was not yet known that Comey, the next day, would reveal the “new” Clinton emails to be duplicates—turned out to be almost entirely false. The full extent of Prince’s lies on November 4th, all of which were Trump campaign disinformation delivered by an adviser and major donor to the campaign, are too numerous and spectacular to list here.

[Odin]

(02-16-2017, 01:40 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: There is a subculture (some even here on this forum) who think we ought to have been isolationists during WW2. It is not a coincidence. Fast forward - this meme started popping up with some in the Paleocon space a few years back. This meme completely turned me off to Paleocons. Initially there was some attraction but once I realized that a good many Paleocons were warmed over America Firsters I ran away like hell.

Galen was spouting this nonsense some time ago. I wanted to reach into my computer monitor and cold-cock him. I've hated isolationists and anti-interventionists ever since I was a kid and saw stories on the news about the atrocities in Bosnia and Rwanda. They are moral cowards.

[TeacherinExile]

Having lived through the Watergate scandal, I couldn't agree more with the tenor of this article from Wall Street on Parade:

Republicans Need to Have That Nixon Conversation With Trump — Now

It matters not your political affiliation, if Trump hopes to effectively lead our country, his "come-to-Jesus moment" is right now.  And as the article strongly suggests, it's Republicans who must bring Trump back to earth.

[Eric the Green]

You're right, but I'm not optimistic. They refuse to exercize any conscience or observance of values in their approval of the alligators he has appointed to his swamp. They have only disapproved one of them.

And the Democrats have let at least three horrible bills pass. They have abdicated their responsibility too.

[TeacherinExile]

And the Trump "pile on" resumes after a brief intermission.

David Brooks, conservative (and establishment) columnist, gets an early start on Trump's political obituary:

What a Failed Trump Administration Looks Like


And the New York Times editorial board gets in on the act, too:

Bring On the Special Prosecutor

Should we resurrect Archibald Cox?  (Time to investigate Donald Milhouse Trump.)

Kenneth Starr? (Oh right, he resigned in disgrace as Baylor's president.  Something about a sexual assault scandal involving student athletes on his watch.  Ain't karma a bitch?) 

"Can you smell what the Rock is cooking?"  Smells like a Constitutional crisis simmering in the pot.  Just what we need. (Sarcasm)

[pbrower2a]

(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-15-2017, 07:47 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-15-2017, 07:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-15-2017, 07:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-15-2017, 02:10 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Buuu ... buuu ... buuut ... Russians are fellow Christian Solders against the Muslim heathen .... Putin's a real man's manly man ... Obama was a wimp .... Cuckservatives aren't much better .... blah ... blah .... blah ....

/Duginist "Alt-Right"

I'll say one thing about the Russians, the Russians don't seem to allow political correctness/liberal qualms to get in the way of their decisions or actions when it comes to destroying radical Muslims. Me, I'd rather have them as a military ally than a military adversary in the war that's coming with radical Islam.

They don't even seem to even know who the radical Muslims are, when they go a-bombin'

Could be. But the US just can't seem to stop meddling. Why the fuck are we still dorking around in Afghanistan, Iraq,Libya,Yemen,and Syria.  If we're just counting bombing locales, the US is about 5 times as stupid as Russia since we're a-bombin in 5 countries as apposed to Russia's 1.Also, yeah, they don't do PC which gets them even more brownie points.

Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of  radical Islam.

"Radical Islam" is not the problem. Satan Hussein was a comparative moderate in religion, and the Shi'ites that he treated badly were and are representatives of 'radical' Islam by religious considerations. We took the side of Radical Islam against a tyrant who admired Stalin and Hitler.  I'll go with a moral compass any time.

President Obama couldn't quite bring himself to speak of "radical Islamic terrorism" ... but he could condemn the Jihadi types intent upon forcing their specific faction of Islam upon the rest of Humanity. Indeed he authorized the raid that sent Osama bin Laden to eternity with the Great Satan. The real menace is a veritable civil war within the Islamic world, a war that the West is being pulled into.

When the Trump nightmare has a chance to end, America will need a President as similar to President Obama in probity.

[TeacherinExile]

President Trump blasted the media as "the enemy of the American people" in a tweet Friday, calling out several outlets specifically.

Quote:[/url]

Follow


Donald J. Trump

✔ @realDonaldTrump
The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!
2:48 PM - 17 Feb 2017

• 
  
  
• 
  9,238 9,238 Retweets
  
• 
  [url=https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=832708293516632065]27,080 27,080 likes
  

Quite troubling rhetoric here.  What is Trump thinking?  Is he even thinking?  Does he have a clue that such language is the hallmark of totalitarian regimes past?  Does he care?  I'm starting to get a real bad feeling about where this is all headed, a possibility that I had only slightly entertained...until now.

[TeacherinExile]

(02-17-2017, 05:37 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: President Trump blasted the media as "the enemy of the American people" in a tweet Friday, calling out several outlets specifically.

Quote:[/url]

Follow


Donald J. Trump

✔ @realDonaldTrump
The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!
2:48 PM - 17 Feb 2017

• 
  
  
• 
  9,238 9,238 Retweets
  
• 
  27,080 27,080 likes
  

Quite troubling rhetoric here.  What is Trump thinking?  Is he even thinking?  Does he have a clue that such language is the hallmark of totalitarian regimes past?  Does he care?  I'm starting to get a real bad feeling about where this is all headed, a possibility that I had only slightly entertained...until now.

Top Stories

Trump tweets: The media is the 'enemy of the American people'

The Hill



Trump tweets the media is 'the enemy of the American people'

Business Insider



Trump tweets: Press 'is the enemy of the American people'
[url=http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-tweet-media-enemy-american-people-235150]
Politico

[Eric the Green]

A lot of Americans will think, "That guy is not focused on me; I don't know what he's focused on"

I seriously wonder whether the dignity and prestige of the office of president of the United States can survive this disgrace and destruction. Let alone whether the nation can survive it.

[gabrielle]

(02-17-2017, 05:37 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: President Trump blasted the media as "the enemy of the American people" in a tweet Friday, calling out several outlets specifically.

Quote:[/url]

Follow


Donald J. Trump

✔ @realDonaldTrump
The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!
2:48 PM - 17 Feb 2017

• 
  
  
• 
  9,238 9,238 Retweets
  
• 
  [url=https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=832708293516632065]27,080 27,080 likes
  

Quite troubling rhetoric here.  What is Trump thinking?  Is he even thinking?  Does he have a clue that such language is the hallmark of totalitarian regimes past?  Does he care?  I'm starting to get a real bad feeling about where this is all headed, a possibility that I had only slightly entertained...until now.

His targets are not those of the radical left wing--his most obvious enemies, and the ones that in some cases warrant the labeling of "fake news"--but rather the objective mainstream ones doing investigative reporting.

[Ragnarök_62]

(02-16-2017, 12:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 03:40 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 03:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 02:09 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(02-16-2017, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Withdrawing our troops from the Middle East isn't going to stop the spread of  radical Islam.

That's not my intent because military action is the wrong tool. Basically, the people there need to sort their own stuff out because we can't fix that place. It's beyond recall. I'm just demand we stop being 5 times as stupid as Russia.  Besides screw Israel.  I'm a citizen of Oklahoma and the United States. I'm not a citizen of the world and of course not a citizen of Israel. If Israel wants to build settlements, fine, just let them get the blow-back. We also need to stop  being associated with lightning rod issues like Israel.

What was your intent? Withdraw and watch as radical Islam takes control over most of the Middle East. Can you imagine what the world be like with radical Islamic's who are armed with nukes? A scary new world with much higher stakes than the sorta scary old world that we grew up in. I don't consider myself to be a citizen of the world either. However, I'm not foolish enough to ignore history and a couple of World Wars that could have been prevented or significantly reduced with the existence of a super power like us today. We (us and all our allies) have unbelievable military power that can be used against radical Islam within the Middle East. It's better to deal with them now over there.

1. Like I told Eric, I'd just let Russia and Iran take care of Syria.  Both of those countries do not want radical Islam, like IS. So, for Syria, just let Assad,Russia, and Iran  handle that situation.  Now, since they'll screw up IS in Syria, that takes the pressure of the pieces of Iraq. Iraq isn't even a proper country. So. let's just let the Kurds or Turkey have that one.  You can't pick both, it has to be either Turkey or the Kurds. I'd just let the spooks decide which one is best to support with arm shipments.  No bombings , drones, etc. Afghanistan, what do you think will work? We've been there a long time and nothing's worked so far.  Libya is a real stupid thing.  We killed Qaddafi and left a vacuum for IS.  That was just so brilliant. I can't fix that either. That's why I just said, let it go. There's nothing to fix it. The Super Power thingie is a myth.  Do superpowers have 3rd world infrastructure like that damn in California and I-35 in the twin cities?  The US spends more on "defense" than the rest of the world.  Of course we're not dealing with them "over there".  Orlando's proof of that. The best way to keep 'em out is to not let them in to begin with. I do not want the US to suffer the same fate as Europe.  Europe just fucked itself in the ass with Merkel's madness.  The best thing we can do wrt safety from radical Islam is to keep it out. That means no refugees allowed. Let's learn that lesson from Europe.  Yeah, I know I might have triggered any special snowflakes, but oh well.  This is where outcomes determine the means. Now, you ask, about retaliation. Yeah, sure, that's what drones and the Spec/OPS are for. It's 4th generation warfare, so 4th generation tactics are how you do it.

(renumbered since you had no #2 here)

I AM a citizen of the world. But that means I am not on board with one or a group of powerful countries dominating and imposing their will on others, including the USA.

Unfortunately, Assad can't take care of anything. He is a war criminal only interested in wiping out the Arab Spring democratic rebellion against him. I have seen zero indication that Russia is interested in anything other than wiping out this democratic rebellion against Assad. Iran is helping wipe out the IS in Iraq, though not in Syria. But I am not fine with letting Iran take over Iraq or wipe out Sunnis there. Iran and its militias alone can't be trusted.

I understand your idea that we should let the Middle East people wipe out the IS, and not be involved. You may be right. I just think people ought to be informed on the actual facts there, and not lie and confuse things in order to convince Americans to stay out of there.

We did not "kill Qaddafi." This is the kind of stuff I mean. We can disagree whether the USA should have had any involvement there in 2011. We did do some bombing early, but it was the Libyans who rebelled, and it was the Libyans who killed Qaddafi, not the USA. Recognize the fact that many people in the Middle East want to move forward into democracy. It is not a Western idea now; it's universal. People want it, and they rise up. It's only a matter of time. Now the question is whether the USA will keep its commitment to democracy and be a beacon to the world, or lose it.

Going along with Trump's madness of "keeping them out" is un-American. Refugees need our help. They are victims of Assad and other terrorists. I disagree with keeping Jews out during the Holocaust, and I disagree with keeping Syrians out during this latest holocaust. But they and all immigrants need to be well vetted, airports need to be guarded against weapons and terrorists, intelligence needs to be used. Obama and Co. were doing all that well. Keeping Muslims out only increases the terrorists' ability to recruit more terrorists to attack us and to build the IS. Trump's madness has zero effect on safety, is aimed at the wrong targets, and inflames the Muslims against us instead of the IS.

Quote:2. Uh, you indicated earlier a concern about balanced budgets.  How about we cut military spending to achieve balanced budgets. I'd of course use taxes to achieve some balance. How about debt free money? And of course getting rid health insurance companies,VA,medicaid and just have a single proven program do all that stuff?

That's right.

Quote:3. I think the meme of "if we don't meddle in a bunch of places" .... that we'll get another World War.  Papa Uncle Sam has to keep all the children of the world in their place. I find that attitude rather weird and probably a meme brought into being by PNAC or something.  PNAC thinks just like that. Their platform is the US always , always knows what's best for a country because we're a benevolent leech that steals with the help of assorted local elites other countries' stuff.

One time, about 75 years ago now, we got a world war because we REFUSED to "meddle." It's a question of when and where. I don't claim to know for sure where the balance is. The USA has meddled way too much. But to just withdraw into our own country is not the answer. We are a vital part of keeping world order and justice. We can't go it alone, as the all-knowing Papa, but we can't be ostriches. It IS one world, whether people like it or not. We are all involved with all the world, in every way. It is abundantly clear that the USA is no better than any country. There's no reason for people to identify with their country.

War is a last resort; peace is the best way. Let that be our guide. But hiding behind walls will just allow aggressive tyrannies to fester and grow. Laws are needed at home to restrain the greedy, violent and hateful. Laws are needed abroad for the same reason.

OK.  I'll try and count properly this time.

1. A decision to bug out of the Middle East is like shooting fish in a barrel.  I'm pretty sure global warming + the inhabitants' whacked out proclivities will ensure that situation will take care of itself on its own. It will become an *anarchic hell hole featuring Hobbesian war of all against all.

2. OK. You can be a world citizen since that's your choice. I'm indifferent to how Eric views himself. As for Assad, let's do something different that we did in all of those other failures, which is to do nothing. Einsteinian definition of insanity and all that rot.

3. Who killed Qaddafi?  Yes, a faction of Libyans did the actual kill, but Hillery cackled about her help here.







bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah  pure eviillll

3. Refugees/illegals/etc.
Obviously, with a current population of approx 320 million along with globals warming's upcoming number on the land's carrying capacity, I highly recommend taking all steps to attempt a slow population decline. That includes restricted immigration along with rejiggering the tax code to essentially bribe folks to keep their litter's small. There will be no labor shortage due to mechanization.

4. Isolationism.... leads to .... some big bad war war II situation.  This makes no sense. The US before WWII was not a meddler.  The conditions leading to WWII started in WWI and the hyperflation that destroyed Germany's economy.  Those conditions don't exist now and nukes pretty much change the calculus of conducting a war like that to obtain resources. The resources are running out world wide and who wants to occupy a nuclear wasteland?

5. How does Trump's reduction in the number of refugees allowed cause blow-back? It's meddling by bombing/droning their stuff in their own living areas that does that sort of stuff.

[Eric the Green]

(02-18-2017, 02:25 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: OK.  I'll try and count properly this time.

1. A decision to bug out of the Middle East is like shooting fish in a barrel.  I'm pretty sure global warming + the inhabitants' whacked out proclivities will ensure that situation will take care of itself on its own. It will become an *anarchic hell hole featuring Hobbesian war of all against all.

Trump is trying as hard as he can to make sure we continue to depend on their oil, and support Israel. It's safe to say we're going nowhere fast, when it comes to getting out of the Mid-East. It seems like a pipe dream to me.

Quote:2. OK. You can be a world citizen since that's your choice. I'm indifferent to how Eric views himself. As for Assad, let's do something different that we did in all of those other failures, which is to do nothing. Einsteinian definition of insanity and all that rot.

I'm glad you let me view myself as I wish. You might not be so sanguine about the fact that I think you're a world citizen too. We all are; that's the world we live in. So, I'd say, I'm not viewing myself that way. It's just the fact, man.

Quote:Who killed Qaddafi? Yes, a faction of Libyans did the actual kill, but Hillery cackled about her help here.
bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah pure eviillll

No, not pure evil at all, and not witchy. Not by a yuge long shot! Just a bit of hyperbole on her part. A bit of braggadocio and that's it.

Quote:3. Refugees/illegals/etc.
Obviously, with a current population of approx 320 million along with global warming's upcoming number on the land's carrying capacity, I highly recommend taking all steps to attempt a slow population decline. That includes restricted immigration along with rejiggering the tax code to essentially bribe folks to keep their litter's small. There will be no labor shortage due to mechanization.

Well, that's a bit better than your previous rant. I don't disagree, but I don't think whatever is done along those lines will relieve our labor surplus due to tech.

Quote:4. Isolationism.... leads to .... some big bad war war II situation.  This makes no sense. The US before WWII was not a meddler.  The conditions leading to WWII started in WWI and the hyperflation that destroyed Germany's economy.  Those conditions don't exist now and nukes pretty much change the calculus of conducting a war like that to obtain resources. The resources are running out world wide and who wants to occupy a nuclear wasteland?

The West allowed Hitler to expand. But yes, it was also WWI and the depression that were causes. This whole time was the end of one age of civilization and the beginning of our own. Cataclysmic.

Quote:5. How does Trump's reduction in the number of refugees allowed cause blow-back? It's meddling by bombing/droning their stuff in their own living areas that does that sort of stuff.

That's an easy one. Singling out Muslims as he does insults them and provides propaganda for the terrorist recruiters and discourages needed allies everywhere. As far as I can tell, Trump's cutting off refugees entirely, not reducing the number. I agree about bombing, except that Obama's raids on the IS are carefully planned and necessary, and working well unless Drump mucks it up. Other than that, it's not a good strategy. We are lucky the Afghans haven't turned on us.

[David Horn]

(02-17-2017, 01:53 PM)TeacherinExile Wrote: Having lived through the Watergate scandal, I couldn't agree more with the tenor of this article from Wall Street on Parade:

Republicans Need to Have That Nixon Conversation With Trump — Now

It matters not your political affiliation, if Trump hopes to effectively lead our country, his "come-to-Jesus moment" is right now.  And as the article strongly suggests, it's Republicans who must bring Trump back to earth.

Just a question: do you see the GOP going full-tilt after Trump?  I don't see them even opening Pandora's Box to see what may be there, so a full investigatin is highly unlikely ... unless they feel enough heat that it affects them personally.  With highly gerrymandered districts, that seems unlikley.  So it's another Catch-22: to achieve goal B, goal A must be achieved first, but goal A can't happen without goal B taking the lead.

I thinnk we have 4 years of Trump.  It may go 8 if the suppression of all opposition leads to election "management" by the the current PTB.