50 dead in Orlando gay nightclub shooting

[Odin]

Link      

Shooter has been identified as an Afghan-American in his 20s. According to NBC the shooter's parents claim it has nothing to do with Islamic radicalism and that he just went unhinged after he saw 2 gay guys kissing.

And Republicans have wasted no time blaming this on "Teh Gays"...  

[Odin]

Update: CNN saying that this guy pledged loyalty to IS, so looks like this guy's parents were hoodwinked or are in denial.

[pbrower2a]

So gun cultures don't have to be American to be horrific in consequences.

[Dan '82]

So this shooting involves guns, gays, and Islam. The reactions are going to be terrible.

[pbrower2a]

(06-12-2016, 11:50 AM)Dan Wrote: So this shooting involves guns, gays, and Islam.  The reactions are going to be terrible.

No -- it involves guns, gays -- and ISIS, the latter one of the most fanatically anti-homosexual causes ever.

[Odin]

(06-12-2016, 11:50 AM)Dan Wrote: So this shooting involves guns, gays, and Islam.  The reactions are going to be terrible.

I've decided to just stay away from Democratic Underground for the next few days because it's all "Guns are Evil" over there.

[Cynic Hero '86]

When will the boomer establishment going to give up their paranoid desire the keep younger generations docile and admit that the terrorism problem is fundamentally an problem with Islam.

[Dan '82]

(06-12-2016, 11:09 AM)Odin Wrote: Link      

Shooter has been identified as an Afghan-American in his 20s. According to NBC the shooter's parents claim it has nothing to do with Islamic radicalism and that he just went unhinged after he saw 2 gay guys kissing.

And Republicans have wasted no time blaming this on "Teh Gays"...  

Dan Patrick claims his tweet was pre-scheduled  and he has quoted Bible verses with similar style on Sundays in the past...

https://twitter.com/DanPatrick/status/73...7801436160
https://twitter.com/DanPatrick/status/73...6207690752
https://twitter.com/DanPatrick/status/72...2686090241
https://twitter.com/DanPatrick/status/73...4240675840

[Odin]

IS is now officially claiming responsibility. Evil bastards!

[Dan '82]

(06-12-2016, 07:09 PM)Odin Wrote: IS is now officially claiming responsibility. Evil bastards!

Don't they claim responsibility for everything?  I seam to recall Al Qaeda took credit for the blackout in 2003.

[pbrower2a]

(06-12-2016, 07:19 PM)Dan Wrote:

(06-12-2016, 07:09 PM)Odin Wrote: IS is now officially claiming responsibility. Evil bastards!

Don't they claim responsibility for everything?  I seam to recall Al Qaeda took credit for the blackout in 2003.

They have yet to take responsibility for hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, or the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

At the least it makes sense that they would endorse this monstrous deed after the fact.

They are ferociously anti-homosexual.

[Eric the Green]

(06-12-2016, 12:07 PM)Odin Wrote:

(06-12-2016, 11:50 AM)Dan Wrote: So this shooting involves guns, gays, and Islam.  The reactions are going to be terrible.

I've decided to just stay away from Democratic Underground for the next few days because it's all "Guns are Evil" over there.

As well it should be. And I remind you of what I predicted years ago. If you guys want to see more and more of this stuff, then keep ignoring your responsibility to support gun control and an assault weapons ban. The gun used in this worst mass shooting was the same as the one in Newtown, the AR-15. I remember here that people knocked me then by saying I don't know about different kinds of assault weapons. How pernicious can you get! These are all military weapons. They don't belong in anyone's hands except soldiers in Afghanistan. And not even there if we claim to be getting outta there.

There is no excuse for ignoring the fact that the USA is the only country where this happens on such a vast scale. And we keep allowing it. We do not regulate guns, and we allow the insane, evil beasts of the NRA to have their way, and Republicans in office to enable and support these evil beasts.

Another thing that occurs to me is that this is clearly a main issue of our 4T. This mass shooting wave began in 1966 in Texas; it has accelerated ever since, and now it has reached crisis level. And the struggle to get guns under control will certainly set off the gun nuts to shoot back against any controls. This is going to be a nub of possible civil war in America. What will it take to get assault weapons out of peoples' hands for good? How long will people continue to pay attention to the stupid arguments justifying possession of them?

I make my prediction again, although again it will be ignored here. Expect this shit to continue until we wise up about guns. Do I really need to say it again? Has anyone really forgotten that I made this prediction?

It's also about hate and terrorism. 

There are people here who need to take a look too. It is not a huge step from old fashioned "world views" which say that allowing gays to get married is an assault on "religious liberty," to some unstable guy with access to guns seeing men kissing each other, and getting so angry that he wants to shoot them. Americans need to get better about this. We need to understand there are people different than ourselves. We need to support, and not oppose, those politicians who ask us to respect diversity. We need to support those leaders who counsel us to respect people different than us. Those who are gay, or black, or of a different race or gender than us, or who have a different religion than us, deserve our respect and their rights, and not our hatred. We need to get used to those who do things we think are unusual and different from ourselves. Those who have different world views than us deserve our respect, but those whose world view justifies prejudice, need to get their world view up to date. And fast!

Some like Cynic Hero will not do this. I pity them, and I pity our country that we have such in our midst.

We need to continue the fight against the Islamic State and Islamic terrorism. The Obama administration is doing the best that it can in this fight, without us becoming like the terrorists, as Bush made us do, and as Donald Trump wants us to do. We need the world with us, including Islam, and we need to stand with the world against these evil beasts too.

[Eric the Green]

(06-12-2016, 11:38 AM)Odin Wrote: Update: CNN saying that this guy pledged loyalty to IS, so looks like this guy's parents were hoodwinked or are in denial.

In fact, the Afghan father apparently was making videos in support of the Taliban. He is apologizing, but he may be ignoring his own responsibility for his son's prejudices and their results.

There is no known direct connection between the Islamic State and this guy. He was not an agent of the IS. It is the result of his own mental instability, violent nature, prejudice and hatred, and of his access to weapons.

[Eric the Green]

I wonder what might have happened if that guy had heard this song?

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric The Green Wrote:As well it should be. And I remind you of what I predicted years ago. If you guys want to see more and more of this stuff, then keep ignoring your responsibility to support gun control and an assault weapons ban. The gun used in this worst mass shooting was the same as the one in Newtown, the AR-15. I remember here that people knocked me then by saying I don't know about different kinds of assault weapons. How pernicious can you get! These are all military weapons. They don't belong in anyone's hands except soldiers in Afghanistan. And not even there if we claim to be getting outta there.

And

Zerohedge Wrote:Orlando Killer Worked For Company Transporting Illegal Immigrants Inside US; Was Interviewed By FBI 3 Times


by Tyler Durden - Jun 12, 2016 3:30 PM

In a surprising discovery, the Palm Beach Post first reported that according to state records, Orlando shooter Omar Mateen - who as we reported earlier was licensed as a security guard and also holds a firearms license - was employed by the US subsidiary of G4S plc, a British multinational security services company, whose US-headquarters are located in Jupiter, Fla, and which also happens to be the world's largest security company by revenue. 

Shortly thereafter, G4S confirmed that Omar Mateen has worked for the company since 2007. This is the statement released from G4S:

Quote:“We are shocked and saddened by the tragic event that occurred at the Orlando nightclub. We can confirm that Omar Mateen had been employed with G4S since September 10, 2007. We are cooperating fully with all law enforcement authorities, including the FBI, as they conduct their investigation. Our thoughts and prayers are with all of the friends, families and people affected by this unspeakable tragedy.”

In other words, Mateen who according to preliminary reports, had been on a terrorist watchlist, and who still managed to obtain weapons thanks to his various licenses and permits just last week, was employed by one of the world's largest security companies, where he may have had extensive clearances well above his pay grade, not to mention access to sophisticated military weapons and equipment.
But where it gets more disturbing is that as Judicial Watch reported several days ago, in a post titled, "DHS Quietly Moving, Releasing Vanloads Of Illegal Aliens Away From Border", border patrol sources said that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) was quietly transporting illegal immigrants from the Mexican border to Phoenix and releasing them without proper processing or issuing court appearance documents. As a reminder, the government classifies them as Other Than Mexican (OTM) and this week around 35 were transferred 116 miles north from Tucson to a Phoenix bus station where they went their separate way. Judicial Watch was present when one of the white vans carrying a group of OTMs arrived at the Phoenix Greyhound station on Buckeye Road.
And this is where the Mateen-G4S link emerges: as JW reported previously, a security company contracted by the U.S. government is driving the OTMs from the Border Patrol’s Tucson Sector where they were in custody to Phoenix, sources said. The firm is the abovementioned G4S, the world’s leading security solutions group with operations in more than 100 countries and 610,000 employees. G4S has more than 50,000 employees in the U.S. and its domestic headquarters is in Jupiter, Florida.
Judicial Watch noted that it had filed a number of public records requests to get more information involving the arrangement between G4S and the government, specifically the transport of illegal immigrants from the Mexican border to other parts of the country. The photo below shows the uniformed G4S guard that transported the OTMs this week from Tucson to Phoenix.

Outraged Border Patrol agents and supervisors on the front lines say illegal immigrants are being released in droves because there’s no room to keep them in detention. “They’re telling us to put them on a bus and let them go,” said one law enforcement official in Arizona. “Just move those bodies across the country.” Officially, DHS denies this is occurring and in fact earlier this year U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner R. Gil Kerlikowske blasted Border Patrol union officials for denouncing this dangerous catch-and-release policy. Kerlikowske’s scolding came in response to the congressional testimony of Bandon Judd, chief of the National Border Patrol Council, the labor union that represents line agents. Judd told lawmakers on the House Judiciary Committee that illegal immigrants without serious criminal convictions can be released immediately and disappear into the shadows. Kerlikowske shot back, telling a separate congressional committee: “I would not stand by if the Border Patrol was — releasing people without going through all of the formalities.
* * *
Meanwhile, the Hill reported that Mateen's employment, and gun licenses, were untouched even though the FBI confirmed it had interviewed the 29-year-old three times before the shooting took place early Sunday morning.  An official said that the FBI first became aware of the suspect, Omar Mateen, 29, in 2013 when he made "inflammatory comments to coworkers alleging possible terrorist ties."
 In the course of that investigation, Mateen was interviewed twice, but the FBI was unable to verify the substance of his comments.
Then, one year later, in 2014 the FBI conducted an investigation into possible ties between Mateen and an American suicide bomber. The FBI conducted another investigation, which included an interview with Mateen, but determined that the contact did not constitute a threat at that time. Which may be an overstatement: the FBI's 2014 probe allegedly found that the  Orlando shooter had "minimal" contact with Florida al-Nusra fighter Moner Abusalha who blew himself up in Syria.
In 2015, after Moner Abusalha became the first American suicide bomber in Syria, the FBI investigated Omar Mateen’s connection to Abu-Salha. Abu-Salha went to the Middle East, trained, and returned to the Treasure Coast, specifically Vero and fort Pierce, to recruit. The FBI says he didn’t recruit anyone, but it’s possible he did have contact with Mateen.
The FBI said it is looking into any and all connections, both domestic and international to the shooting. It appears to have found nothing despite it all being laid out in front of its face. 
The agent at Sunday afternoon’s press briefing also confirmed reports that the shooter called 911 before the massacre, and said his remarks had general connections to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) terror group. The content of those calls is now federal evidence.
* * *
It gets even more bizarre: despite his chequered history and his numerous FBI encounters, the Orlando Police just reported that he had managed to purchase firearms in just this past week.

Quote:ATF: The gunman legally purchased the firearms within the last week. In Florida.
— Orlando Police (@OrlandoPolice) June 12, 2016

A Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives spokesperson confirmed that Mateen legally purchased 2 firearms — a handgun and a long gun, “within the past few days.”
* * *
Armed with all this information, the big question, now that it has emerged that Mateen worked for the same company that has been tasked - under questionable circumstances - to transport illegals into the US, is whether or not this individual who swore allegiance to ISIS moments before the worst mass shooting and who was also employed by G4S for almost a decade, and who had been interviewed by the FBI three times and yet still managed to buy guns just last week, was also tasked in any way in facilitating the transport of illegal immigrants across the border, and if so, whether he helped other like-minded radical islamists enter the country.
We are confident all these questions will be addressed by the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI and the government, and that the media - liberal or otherwise - will promptly follow up on these key questions.

1. He worked for a company where he would have access to guns regardless of what laws are. G4S is a security, so Eric's hangup on guns is a non issue here. If you have a clearance Eric, you can get all the guns you want. Stupid gun control advocates from Obama on down sure are stupid on this one.

2. Now a what the fuck?  Why are we busing illegal aliens to destinations inside the US?  They should be bused south, not north.

3. The FBI dropped the ball on this guy. So why the fuck is the doing all of this surveillance crap when it does no good?

There is no excuse for ignoring the fact that the USA is the only country where this happens on such a vast scale. And we keep allowing it. We do not regulate guns, and we allow the insane, evil beasts of the NRA to have their way, and Republicans in office to enable and support these evil beasts.

Quote:Another thing that occurs to me is that this is clearly a main issue of our 4T. This mass shooting wave began in 1966 in Texas; it has accelerated ever since, and now it has reached crisis level. And the struggle to get guns under control will certainly set off the gun nuts to shoot back against any controls. This is going to be a nub of possible civil war in America. What will it take to get assault weapons out of peoples' hands for good? How long will people continue to pay attention to the stupid arguments justifying possession of them?

I'd go back to the 1965 immigration reform law on this one.

Quote:I make my prediction again, although again it will be ignored here. Expect this shit to continue until we wise up about guns. Do I really need to say it again? Has anyone really forgotten that I made this prediction?

In this case it's not guns, but graft, illegal aliens, and government incompetence.

Quote:It's also about hate and terrorism.

IOW, it's about meddling in the Mideast and we need to stop it.

Quote:There are people here who need to take a look too. It is not a huge step from old fashioned "world views" which say that allowing gays to get married is an assault on "religious liberty," to some unstable guy with access to guns seeing men kissing each other, and getting so angry that he wants to shoot them. Americans need to get better about this. We need to understand there are people different than ourselves. We need to support, and not oppose, those politicians who ask us to respect diversity. We need to support those leaders who counsel us to respect people different than us. Those who are gay, or black, or of a different race or gender than us, or who have a different religion than us, deserve our respect and their rights, and not our hatred. We need to get used to those who do things we think are unusual and different from ourselves. Those who have different world views than us deserve our respect, but those whose world view justifies prejudice, need to get their world view up to date. And fast!

If we didn't allow just any wahoo to immigrate that would work. We need to control our borders like days yonder.  The Federal government needs to shed itself of incompetence and power grabs also.

Quote:Some like Cynic Hero will not do this. I pity them, and I pity our country that we have such in our midst.

Sometimes a blind squirrel finds a nut.

Quote:We need to continue the fight against the Islamic State and Islamic terrorism. The Obama administration is doing the best that it can in this fight, without us becoming like the terrorists, as Bush made us do, and as Donald Trump wants us to do. We need the world with us, including Islam, and we need to stand with the world against these evil beasts too.

Nope, that's why we have pissed off brown people in the MENA area.  It's not our job to intervene to make assorted people feel good about themselves. We're becoming like terrorists and fascists because that's what war does.

What was old, is new again

[Eric the Green]

Th Trumpetist critics have one point correct: not about blaming the IS or immigration, but law enforcement apparently left this guy off the hook. A more thorough investigation could have revealed what is coming out now after just one day of news reporting, that he abused and kidnapped his wife, and work colleagues thought he could blow up and go off the handle at any time. It's true giving security clearance for this guy was a stupid mistake. But no "security clearance" justifies personal possession of military weapons; ever. Trump wants to blame Obama for this "incompetence," and the government seems not to be investigating suspects fully enough; but he is also misdirecting us to focus on the irrelevant for his own purposes.

The Mateen situation has no relationship to immigration, at least to the extent that he was a US citizen born here. We control our border very tightly already; that's not the issue. Blaming immigrants creates more of the same kind of hate that caused this massacre.

True, our meddling in the mideast has made this situation worse. But I see no alternative but to fight and defeat the terrorists. They inspire these creeps all over the world. They gotta go, and fast. We helped make this bed; now we've got to make it again. But with the whole world as allies, and not with invading US ground troops, or terrorism of our own as Trump wants.

[pbrower2a]

Guess which Presidential nominee blames which President?

Quote:Donald Trump, a renowned conspiracy theorist, was at it again on Monday morning, implying that President Barack Obama harbored some sort of connection, perhaps even sympathies, to Muslims who had committed acts of terror in the United States.

The presumptive GOP nominee made this allegation the morning after the deadliest shooting in modern American history — a slaying of 50 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando — during an interview on “Fox and Friends.”

“[Obama] doesn’t get it, or he gets it better than anybody understands,” Trump said of the president’s response to the nightclub shooting. “It’s one or the other. And either one is unacceptable.”

Trump spent years questioning Obama’s birthplace prior to running for president. So while Monday’s statement may be jarring, it’s not altogether surprising.

The business mogul is rather expert at making such coy, suggestive remarks — he made similar ones after last year’s San Bernardino shooting. And usually, his accusations are just vague enough that he can later insist he wasn’t actually implying the most nefarious interpretation. Still, many observers on Monday morning noticed Trump’s insinuation.

Beyond the suggestion that Obama is collaborating with ISIS, Trump called on the president to resign for refusing to utter the words “radical Islamic terrorism.” He also continued to insist that the United States must temporarily ban Muslims from entering the country — but added an even more frightening wrinkle by saying that many Muslims already in America “are worse than” Omar Mateen, the Orlando shooter.
“We’re allowing people to come into our country that are no different than this maniac,” said Trump. “I don’t know how many people are going to end up dying from this.”
As for his prescription for dealing with the problem, Trump offered little beyond the usual tough-sounding bromides. “I’m calling for strength, I’m calling for intelligence. We need strong surveillance,” he said. Later, he added: 

• “We have to be very strong in terms of looking at the mosques”
  
• “We have to really increase the bombing”
  
• “We have to knock out their internet capability”
  
• “We have to be furious for a short period of time and we’re not doing it.” 
  

Trump concluded by congratulating himself and implying, once more, that Obama has some other motive. 
“I’m getting thousands of letters and tweets that I was right about the whole situation,” Trump said of his prowess in predicting terrorist attacks. “I don’t want congratulations. What I want them to do is be tough and vigilant, our government. We are led by a man who is either not tough, not smart, or he has something else in mind. And the something else in mind, people can’t believe it.”

... Donald Trump needs to tell that again to this well-documented dimwit, nice and slow, because he can't understand why a President who has been so tough on terrorists in more than deed (in fact he willingly modulates his language to keep from tipping his hand) needs to be faulted. So he doesn't use bluster as a substitute for loosing the fateful lightning?...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trum...97fba8c1d7

Where he is, Osama bin Laden has plenty to curse about President Obama.

[Eric the Green]

(06-13-2016, 10:25 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Eric it's obvious you have not traveled much. Availability of weapons used by terrorists and other extrajudicial combat forces is very minimal here in the US. Our markets for such usages are not well developed. One sure sign of this ... AK-47s are rarely used here. The AK-47 is a marker of the existence of such markets. A secondary marker is the RPG of Soviet design. However, none of this matters when IEDs come into play. We've seen a small bit of that here in the US, thus far. Expect far more.

Availability seems to be quite easy here in the USA. Massacres with assault weapons have been frequent. The weapon used in the Mateen case in Orlando is the same one as in Newtown. I don't need to travel to FL or CT to understand this. It happened in California too. A number of times, in fact.

[Eric the Green]

(06-13-2016, 11:56 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(06-13-2016, 11:27 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-13-2016, 10:25 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Eric it's obvious you have not traveled much. Availability of weapons used by terrorists and other extrajudicial combat forces is very minimal here in the US. Our markets for such usages are not well developed. One sure sign of this ... AK-47s are rarely used here. The AK-47 is a marker of the existence of such markets. A secondary marker is the RPG of Soviet design. However, none of this matters when IEDs come into play. We've seen a small bit of that here in the US, thus far. Expect far more.

Availability seems to be quite easy here in the USA. Massacres with assault weapons have been frequent. The weapon used in the Mateen case in Orlando is the same one as in Newtown. I don't need to travel to FL or CT to understand this. It happened in California too. A number of times, in fact.

Availability of certain civilian grade weapons is reasonable. Ammo is in short supply. But I was not referring to that. I was referring to the actual underground markets where terrorists gets military grade weapons, ammo and ordnance. We barely have such a market here. Mainly that market is a minor niche completely controlled by narco cartels and other gangs. But it is nothing compared with overseas.

Unfortunately we have a lot more to worry about than "terrorists." These mass shootings are common here in the USA, more than in any other country by far, and they use these weapons because they are allowed. What we need to "refer to" is that, in all its aspects and causes. Until we do, this will continue to accelerate and get worse. When we do, it will get better. Official Meece prediction, that.

[Eric the Green]