Can The Economy Ever Be 'Good' While So Many Don't Have Walls?

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-14-2020, 08:35 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(03-13-2020, 05:02 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-12-2020, 07:38 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: That song, (Gentle on my Mind), although not really thought of that way, was popular smack-dab in the middle of the hippie era when free-spiritism was very much in vogue. Sometimes I think we could usu a little more of that today. Am now in my 70s and still would like as little responsibility as possible. Depressed that most of the bills never seem to go away. Probably won’t be able to retire until death, even though I never had substance abuse issues.

Yes, it was more the norm to be a free spirit during the last awakening.  It went with the times.  When you were young, a member of a band (such as those who wrote the song) and had not yet put down roots, it was easier.  Boomers have sunk roots since, generally.  I sympathize with the seeming ugliness of some of those roots.  Persistent buggers, no?

Should I chime in here, "free spirit" means to a child "unknown chaos / danger".  I am so glad and thankful to the gods for Strauss and Howe's concepts, it helped me understand WHY I felt so alienated and under-protected as a child.

It's also enlightening how Prophets had the world to claim for themselves.  A healthy infrastructure, parents who adored them, every material thing they could want (NEED was a given, WANT is the operative word).

^^ this is a generality.  But it works.

Then, when they were finished shitting on everything I just mentioned, decided to "put down roots" as you say, and then here we are in 2020 - living in essentially their world - and things have been falling down through my entire adult life, no one can agree on how to move forward on anything, and America wonders if we can even survive until Summer.

It was all about them.  Their visions.  Their ideology.  It still is.  I recognize America needed them to overthrow a stale culture.  I can't say The Doors shouldn't exist.  But their use is over.  Please just die already.  Self-impose that you will no longer vote or involve in politics if you can't do the latter.  Admit and recognize YOU are the problem right now.  Whether you call yourself a color or a side or a movement.

You are not here to change culture.  Your time for that is over.  Now, we need inner change you cannot provide.

please opt out

Hmm.  Let me see.  The people who made America great are the villains, and the folks that ruined it heroes?  Is there something a bit off here?

From my perspective, there was a progressive era from FDR to LBJ.  There was a conservative era from Nixon through at least Trump.  

The New Deal through The Great Society is another way to speak of the progressive era.  Tax and spend liberalism is a somewhat derogatory if descriptive phrase.  One feature was problem solving.  Whetner it was repetitive depressions, fascism, communism, racism, sexism, the environment or a moon that needed flying to, lots of money was thrown at the problem.

Then there was a conservative era.  America could no longer solve every problem.  There was the fall of Saigon, Watergate, the oil crisis, the hostage crisis and the hostage crisis.  There was small government, voodoo economics and an the resultant willingness not to look at problems.  Jobs were sent abroad.  The division of wealth soared.  College debt rose.  It became hard to get a good job.  Attacks were made on functions which steered the wealth towards working people, such as labor unions and benefits.  Some were unwilling or unable to save for retirement.  There was a common wisdom that you could not let either party take things far, that you had to put the other party in, that I have called the see saw.

From my perspective, the problem is not boomers vs everyone else.  It is red against blue.  The period when the blue were in charge, America was great.  When the conservative era came, it was not.  The progressives had their act together.  The conservatives had their act together too, if you were upset by change, a racist, or an elite.  If one can stretch your mind it is possible to see why America changed, reasons why we asked not what we could do for our country, but what the country could do for us.  You can only strive for greatness so long.  Then you need a break.

But the break can’t last forever.  The time is coming, is perhaps already here, that we have to see clearly and work hard for a cause larger than one's self.

I can say that by the benefit of the time of our birth, we benefited from the last of the progressive years.  Younger generations have suffered more from red policies.

But I can also see an accident of boomers being two groups, blue boomers and red boomers.  They vary much by time and more by philosophy and politics.  They are very much different.  Some lazy individuals cannot seem to tell the difference, but the blue identify with and promote the progressive era, while the red attempt to justify and glorify the conservative era.  The two groups are different enough that the really shouldn’t be lumped together, or given praise or blame for the other group’s thinking.  Some lazy or blind people make that mistake.

These lazy or blind people should please opt out.

[TheNomad]

(03-14-2020, 11:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-14-2020, 08:35 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(03-13-2020, 05:02 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-12-2020, 07:38 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: That song, (Gentle on my Mind), although not really thought of that way, was popular smack-dab in the middle of the hippie era when free-spiritism was very much in vogue. Sometimes I think we could usu a little more of that today. Am now in my 70s and still would like as little responsibility as possible. Depressed that most of the bills never seem to go away. Probably won’t be able to retire until death, even though I never had substance abuse issues.

Yes, it was more the norm to be a free spirit during the last awakening.  It went with the times.  When you were young, a member of a band (such as those who wrote the song) and had not yet put down roots, it was easier.  Boomers have sunk roots since, generally.  I sympathize with the seeming ugliness of some of those roots.  Persistent buggers, no?

Should I chime in here, "free spirit" means to a child "unknown chaos / danger".  I am so glad and thankful to the gods for Strauss and Howe's concepts, it helped me understand WHY I felt so alienated and under-protected as a child.

It's also enlightening how Prophets had the world to claim for themselves.  A healthy infrastructure, parents who adored them, every material thing they could want (NEED was a given, WANT is the operative word).

^^ this is a generality.  But it works.

Then, when they were finished shitting on everything I just mentioned, decided to "put down roots" as you say, and then here we are in 2020 - living in essentially their world - and things have been falling down through my entire adult life, no one can agree on how to move forward on anything, and America wonders if we can even survive until Summer.

It was all about them.  Their visions.  Their ideology.  It still is.  I recognize America needed them to overthrow a stale culture.  I can't say The Doors shouldn't exist.  But their use is over.  Please just die already.  Self-impose that you will no longer vote or involve in politics if you can't do the latter.  Admit and recognize YOU are the problem right now.  Whether you call yourself a color or a side or a movement.

You are not here to change culture.  Your time for that is over.  Now, we need inner change you cannot provide.

please opt out

Hmm.  Let me see.  The people who made America great are the villains, and the folks that ruined it heroes?  Is there something a bit off here?

wtf??

dude this is not some reddit forum of alt realities of the Multiverse of Madness. 

We are in the GENERATIONAL CYCLES / STRAUSS&HOWE PUBLISHINGS / GENERATIONS / THE 4TH TURNING forum.

This forum is not a big tent gathering of the masses who like to wave flags with animals and their favorite 2 colors.

This forum is ... then this THREAD is ... Political Discussion (I wrote it here because there is no other logical place for it here) ... within the realm of Generational Cycles and Archetypes described fully by mentioned authors.

But now, you are coming with your own descriptions and designations, saying this or that generation is this or that, I GUESS based on your own philosophy or belief systems.... why here?  You could fill up your area in reddit or 7chan or some other place without already-established expectations of models and understanding of their designations.

I mean, no one forced you HERE.  Who herded you in HERE to make up your own paradigms?  You can do that anywhere.

MOST BASIC

Hero: fixes the shit destroyed by Prophet, brings stale culture
Artist: I haven't totally figured this one out, they basically cling to adults through the Crisis, grow up super protected, enjoy a world resurrected, and grow old in the most cared-for situations the new society has created (the authors say in plain words it is in this archetype a person can fully realize the benefits of a society reborn)
Prophet: flushes stale culture from Hero and shits on the institutions created to protect them
Nomad: gets shit on through all phases

If you can't agree on these basics, you don't belong in this forum.  I mean, Papists go to the places for them, Democrats to their havens, Chess Players go there, on and on.  There are paradigms for everyone.  What made you come here?

[TheNomad]

(03-14-2020, 11:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: From my perspective, the problem is not boomers vs everyone else.  It is red against blue.  The period when the blue were in charge, America was great.  When the conservative era came, it was not.  The progressives had their act together.  The conservatives had their act together too, if you were upset by change, a racist, or an elite.  If one can stretch your mind it is possible to see why America changed, reasons why we asked not what we could do for our country, but what the country could do for us.  You can only strive for greatness so long.  Then you need a break.

But the break can’t last forever.  The time is coming, is perhaps already here, that we have to see clearly and work hard for a cause larger than one's self.

ima try to be kind to you w this, you say it isn't boomers/prophets against everyone also, but red on blue.

That is very, very incorrect and wrong.  It's part of why you need to opt out and no longer participate.  So long as red v blue exists, nothing will happen.  It exists because boomer/prophet IS red AND blue. 

It is boomer against itself at the cost of everyone else.  IDEOLOGY IS KILLING AMERICA.  Whose ideology? 

Hero is not battling against itself.  They are a collective unit that does not care who is RIGHT so long as it WORKS.
Artist is not battling against itself.  All THEY want is to envision a world that won't end in fire before they get laid.
Prophet fighting to the death over Vietnam and Civil Rights (it was good then, NOT GOOD NOW) still want to throw rocks and engage the division with WAR
Nomad doesn't give a shit about any of it, they know boomer/prophet/ideology is the problem, maybe some of us are smart enough to know we can only hope for change when boomer/prophet dies or opts out

will you give us all a chance?  NO ONE ELSE is battling over ideology except boomer/prophet.

If you cannot accept that blue is an ideology and red is an ideology, we are not going to make it.  We have politicians making decisions or NOT making decisions simply based on what side it comes from.  There are lawmakers and pundits who ONLY WANT TO STOP PROGRESS.

You say it is red that wants to stop progress.  I disagree and that is not true.  I could easily now say blue does want progress.  In fact, I believe that.  Yet, underlying it all is IDEOLOGY AS A WEAPON and the idea ideology can save us NO............................................. ideology cannot save anything. It puts up barriers that can never be crossed simply based on dogma and ritual.

It is no different than an Orthodox Priest battling a Catholic one over WHO founded the church
neither of you did, stfu and go perform a baptism and let everyone else get to work
and yet this persists "I'M not the problem THEY ARE"

and guess what, the Hero is sitting there going JUST SHUT UP AND DO SOMETHING!  FIX THE PROBLEMS.  WE DON'T CARE WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG, WE DON'T CARE WHAT SIDE YOU ARE ON, WE WOULD RATHER YOU TAKE OFF YOUR T-SHIRT WITH THE ANIMAL ON IT AND PRETEND YOU DON'T HAVE A SIDE SO WE DON'T SIT IN ROOMS FOR THE NEXT DECADE DECIDING WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG BUT HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM

Hero and Artist are poised with a collective spirit to FIX that you do not have.  You will never have it.  Individualists and free spirits I think cannot even understand what that means.  I don't have it either.  I am more Prophet than Hero.  I want to do my own thing, I have my own values, I do not blend in with the crowd, I do not engage in Groupthink.

Guess what?  Hero and Artists are all those things.  That's why their culture is so stale.  It has to be.  The need for them to be forced into a collective unit to solve problems is the only thing that counter-balances the rancor of now with prophet and their red v blue battle to the end.

AS SOON AS RUSH LIMBAUGH DIES, AMERICA WILL SEE A MARKED CHANGE.  That's not because he is red, but because he is prophet.  He is a great cause of the current division.  It is my personal opinion we notice red more because there are less of them out in public that way. They NEED less because they follow easier. It's no mistake he is about to die right as we are moving through the Great Gate of this 4th Turning.  It also highlights my idea prophet just needs to GO AWAY.  Since they are so freaking stubborn, only death can lift that curse.  Asking a prophet to opt out is like asking a pig to refrain from the trough.  It is not in their nature.

if you dont think everyone else is realizing who is the problem you made a mistake

Having said that, each cycle does its thing, and tho I loved reruns of Donna Reed, I used to try to imagine what that idyllic was.  Just 25 years later, it seemed like I was living on a different planet.  None of that existed in my world.  Not the clean neighborhoods or the overall peace and safety of what I saw depicted, the overall cohesion of society when they went in public.

I know the difference between TV entertainment and real life. I am speaking metaphorically.

I am saying, it wasn't until I really understood these books I realized how utterly bland, stale and worthless culture was back then.  How there was a social need to vomit and create new things.  Thank god for those things.  Who could imagine a world without all of it?  Those things brought upheaval and travail, but had to happen.

NOW, understand.  Prophet/boomer made that happen.  Moving to the present, that paradigm shift is over.  We can no longer afford it, and it's not necessary.  America is fully closed off to social change and societal revolution.  What it needs now is structural and procedural revolution.  The next archetypes are there and waiting. 

Imagine if everyone from government above, say, 70 was forced to retire.  The 4th Turning would be finished in the next presidential term.  We would be in full swing to a good First Turning.

I would say even 65yo.  I mean, THAT was the age the New Deal and Great Society decided was the age of retirement.  WHY are there so many skeletons clinging on to political life who just absolutely refuse to give up their chair and move on? 

IDEOLOGY.
They feel like they just cannot give up their shit until their "work" is done.  What is their "work"?  It is to implement and apply their ideology before they pass on.  They have this god-granted theme in their minds they were put here to enlighten everyone and right a wronged ship.

BUT YOUR TIME HAS PASSED.  THIS AINT VIETNAM AND FLOWER CHILDREN ARE NOT COOL.  LET THE HEROES DO THEIR THING.

WILL YOU?

[TheNomad]

(03-14-2020, 11:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I can say that by the benefit of the time of our birth, we benefited from the last of the progressive years.  Younger generations have suffered more from red policies.

I had a friend that professed intense red tendencies, but he was my best friend and I did not care.  Inwardly and privately, he was much more blue than red.  I never understood.  He was Rush and Fox.

HOWEVER, he was turning the age to collect social security.  I challenged him about the idea:

Social Security benefits, retirement, the whole thing, it was all created by blue people.  In fact, if those programs were on the table at that time, he himself, my friend, would do everything he could to help kill it.  Yet, a whole Saeculum cycle later, after SS was created and implemented before my friend was even born, he was relishing the time approaching when he would retire.

It makes no sense.  And that, to me, kind of proved my idea that one half of prophet/boomer fears the face of the coming changes, and that is why they resist so strongly. 
"PLEASE JUST DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING"

Now, as with the entire theories of the books playing out, a thing prophet/boomer tried to burn down (things created by their Hero nemesises aligned with the Artists - their parents, basically) are fully enjoyed BY the prophet/boomer and then will likely fail by the time Nomad gets old enough to try to use them.

one small example of their authors' uncanny insight

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2020, 12:26 AM)TheNomad Wrote: wtf??

dude this is not some reddit forum of alt realities of the Multiverse of Madness. 

We are in the GENERATIONAL CYCLES / STRAUSS&HOWE PUBLISHINGS / GENERATIONS / THE 4TH TURNING forum.

This forum is not a big tent gathering of the masses who like to wave flags with animals and their favorite 2 colors.

This forum is ... then this THREAD is ... Political Discussion (I wrote it here because there is no other logical place for it here) ... within the realm of Generational Cycles and Archetypes described fully by mentioned authors.

But now, you are coming with your own descriptions and designations, saying this or that generation is this or that, I GUESS based on your own philosophy or belief systems.... why here?  You could fill up your area in reddit or 7chan or some other place without already-established expectations of models and understanding of their designations.

I mean, no one forced you HERE.  Who herded you in HERE to make up your own paradigms?  You can do that anywhere.

MOST BASIC

Hero: fixes the shit destroyed by Prophet, brings stale culture
Artist: I haven't totally figured this one out, they basically cling to adults through the Crisis, grow up super protected, enjoy a world resurrected, and grow old in the most cared-for situations the new society has created (the authors say in plain words it is in this archetype a person can fully realize the benefits of a society reborn)
Prophet: flushes stale culture from Hero and shits on the institutions created to protect them
Nomad: gets shit on through all phases

If you can't agree on these basics, you don't belong in this forum.  I mean, Papists go to the places for them, Democrats to their havens, Chess Players go there, on and on.  There are paradigms for everyone.  What made you come here?

First, some of the confusion is in that I used the word hero (as opposed to villain) context instead of the S&H Hero (as opposed to Artist, Prophet and Nomad).  Clearly, Hero is a magic word in the S&H system, and I could have avoided the confusion by not using it.  That might have cleared things up.

But the larger context, why did I come here?  I started out with S&H being essentially my first non traditional system for examining history.  I was much more a conventional S&H fan back then.  I have since been trying to understand history, and have folded other perspectives than S&H into my system.  I am here, like a good INTP, to refine my own model against reality, not to worship any existing model.  Thus, I perceive S&H as a good start, but only a start.

First, you badly misconstrue S&H.  They present all four generation stereotypes positively, while you understand them as including good guys and bad guys.  Thus, you are presenting and advocating a perversion of the masters.  My own spin on the original S&H generations…

Prophet:  An idealist, creates and proclaimed the new values.
Nomad: Hard edged low level boss that is sick of idealism but gets thing done.
Hero:  Really gets things done.  Practical folk that can work together in large numbers.
Artist:  I haven’t figured them out either, other than shellshocked by growing up in a crisis.

From there I diverged.  A lot.  Parts of my own model which builds on and eventually opposes S&H…

They originally saw their system as apolitical.  They correctly saw the Crisis.  They did not see or emphasize how there was always a conservative force advocating the old ways of doing things against a progressive force moving folks away from the Agricultural Age system to the Industrial Age or Information Age.  Kings.  Slaves.  Division of wealth.  Dictators.  Tribal thinking.  My model includes this.  I noted that adjusting the culture to fit the available and rapidly developing technology resulted in the new values usually coming up on top in any given Crisis.  The Turnings became a way of society transforming to meet the new environment.  Thus, the new values supplanted the old for good reason.

As well as S&H turnings (High, Awakening, Unraveling, Crisis) I dabbled in Ages of Civilization (Hunter Gatherer, Agricultural Age, Industrial Age, Information Age.)  I also dabbled in Civilizations proper (The West, Orthodox, Middle Eastern, Indian, etc…).  There is more to be learned from history than S&H, though Turnings was a new enough idea that it was likely good that they focused on the one perspective.  Good, but not where I wanted to go.  I would rather be more inclusive in my analysis.

Another big difference is that when one uses multiple perspectives (Turnings, Ages, Civilizations), you have to be very wary when saying that when one of the perspectives changes radically, you can keep on using stuff that was apparently learned before the change.  For example, stuff you thought you learned by closely examining the Agricultural Age is suspect when you try to apply that knowledge to the Industrial Age.  S&H found many traits that apply well to history… in the Industrial Age West.  You have to verify it before applying it to other Ages or Civilizations.  You might theorize based on such cross perspective viewpoints, but you have to verify it.

Following that up, I look dubiously at using Industrial Age patterns on the Information Age.  You have to double check everything that happened since the Information Age started, which I put at World War II.  You can predict what should happen.  It is safest to double check if there is real world evidence that it is actually happening.  Thus when someone attempts to say an Industrial Age pattern is going to hold in the Information Age, I am apt to question assumptions.

Etc…

I came here originally as an S&H fan.  I stayed as I eventually found flaws in the theory, but still needed to bounce these flaws against others who looked at history and politics differently.  In the process of fighting to present my ideas, I occasionally develop wrinkles in my own model.  It is in improving my model that I achieve something perhaps.  I do not expect to change the set mind of fanatics.  People get highly rigid in how they perceive things.  The attempt, however, sometimes improves the model.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2020, 01:09 AM)TheNomad Wrote: and guess what, the Hero is sitting there going JUST SHUT UP AND DO SOMETHING!  FIX THE PROBLEMS.  WE DON'T CARE WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG, WE DON'T CARE WHAT SIDE YOU ARE ON, WE WOULD RATHER YOU TAKE OFF YOUR T-SHIRT WITH THE ANIMAL ON IT AND PRETEND YOU DON'T HAVE A SIDE SO WE DON'T SIT IN ROOMS FOR THE NEXT DECADE DECIDING WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG BUT HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM

The problem is that the red ideology is to cover their eyes and pretend not to see problems.  As long as their philosophy is dominant, problems don’t get solved.  I am willing enough to listen should you provide a new idea on how to solve a problem, but that doesn’t do much if the majority idea is to not solve problems.

(03-15-2020, 01:09 AM)TheNomad Wrote: BUT YOUR TIME HAS PASSED.  THIS AINT VIETNAM AND FLOWER CHILDREN ARE NOT COOL.  LET THE HEROES DO THEIR THING.

Yes.  There are few free thinkers left.  Most boomers have moved on, sold out, set roots, however you want to describe it.  We have left Vietnam and flower children well behind in our youth.  Have you?

Another problem is that heroes haven’t done their thing.  They have not voted.  They have not produced leaders.  They have not actually worked towards the new values save as individuals.  They have not produced a generation that works towards solving a problem that is larger than individual, that benefits the nation or the world.  When they do, more power to them and I will get out of the way.  Until they do, the new values, the adaptation to the modern situation, will have to be presented.

One flaw in the S&H vision is that it presents another way to be prejudiced, to be biased, to divide.  There are some people who are into S&H to be generationally prejudiced, to see one generation as the good guys, another to be bad guys.  Again, this is a perversion of the intent of S&H.  It is not at all what the authors had in mind.  It has no place on a S&H website.  Such posters belong on hate websites.

I’ll give you a clue.  This is not about this generation against that.  It is not about this Civilization against that.  It is not even about this Age against that directly, though any crisis moves things a little towards a future Age.  It is about red vs blue.  It is about Republican against Democrats.  That is what is on the ballot.  The issue is how long the red can cling to the old flawed values before the progressive idea of working for a collective policy of working towards something larger than one’s self is dominant for a time.

(03-15-2020, 01:09 AM)TheNomad Wrote: WILL YOU?

As soon as the younger generations are ready to step up to the plate, sure.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2020, 01:43 AM)TheNomad Wrote: Social Security benefits, retirement, the whole thing, it was all created by blue people.  In fact, if those programs were on the table at that time, he himself, my friend, would do everything he could to help kill it.  Yet, a whole Saeculum cycle later, after SS was created and implemented before my friend was even born, he was relishing the time approaching when he would retire.

Social Security was created by FDR when the stock market crash wiped out the savings of a large number of people at the same time. Ideally, each generation would pay for its own retirement. Each individual would. This was not possible at that time. The only option available was to have future generations pay for the past.

I can almost applaud recent attempts to get off this system. It is hardly ideal. It was only the best that could be done at the time. I anticipate that as some have not been able to save for retirement, they will use their voting power to rebuild Social Security along the future pays for the past model. If someone could phase this model out while not breaking too many promises, fine. Nice try. Possibly not now. Eventually. After the "but we haven't saved for retirement" gap.

There is a lot of talk about how Social Security in its current form is bound to fail. I do not see America as allowing it to do so, as those who depend on it have too many votes. Whoever promises to save Social Security will get elected. If they fail to do so, they will get booted.

Your friend is naive.

[David Horn]

(03-15-2020, 09:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-15-2020, 01:43 AM)TheNomad Wrote: Social Security benefits, retirement, the whole thing, it was all created by blue people.  In fact, if those programs were on the table at that time, he himself, my friend, would do everything he could to help kill it.  Yet, a whole Saeculum cycle later, after SS was created and implemented before my friend was even born, he was relishing the time approaching when he would retire.

Social Security was created by FDR when the stock market crash wiped out the savings of a large number of people at the same time.  Ideally, each generation would pay for its own retirement.  Each individual would.  This was not possible at that time.  The only option available was to have future generations pay for the past.

I can almost applaud recent attempts to get off this system.  It is hardly ideal.  It was only the best that could be done at the time.  I anticipate that as some have not been able to save for retirement, they will use their voting power to rebuild Social Security along the future pays for the past model.  If someone could phase this model out while not breaking too many promises, fine.  Nice try.  Possibly not now.  Eventually.  After the "but we haven't saved for retirement" gap.

There is a lot of talk about how Social Security in its current form is bound to fail.  I do not see America as allowing it to do so, as those who depend on it have too many votes.  Whoever promises to save Social Security will get elected.  If they fail to do so, they will get booted.

Your friend is naive.

Social Security is a transfer program: working age and healthy to older aged, disabled and their survivors. It's not ideal, but it's impossible to replace.  Why?  Because breaking that model to fund another would bankrupt the country (remember, my spending is your income), and funding both at once is simply impossibly expensive.  And yes, it was certainly a response to the GD, when the old and infirm were unsupportable in any other fashion.  A quick look around would show that the Spanish Flu was the trigger of nationalized healthcare in Europe and elsewhere (just not here).  Programs tend to rise to meet a need.  Doing smart things for purely worthwhile reasons tends to fail the greed test.  The PTB don't need or want it, and are in a position to block it, unless it's demanded by enough angry voters that they have to agree. 

The anger may be rising even as we speak. Coronavirus is just an added incentive to ones that have already been building for a long time. Let's see what it brings.

[TheNomad]

(03-15-2020, 09:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Another problem is that heroes haven’t done their thing.  They have not voted.  They have not produced leaders.  They have not actually worked towards the new values save as individuals.  They have not produced a generation that works towards solving a problem that is larger than individual, that benefits the nation or the world.  When they do, more power to them and I will get out of the way.  Until they do, the new values, the adaptation to the modern situation, will have to be presented.

Heroes can only do what they are supposed to do when you leave.

Will you?

Have you even read  the books?  I mean, that is why I asked why you came here.  Your understanding is minimal.  It is not true Heroes don't vote.  That is associated with apathy which is Nomad, not Hero, and Hero does things  in collective waves, not as individuals.  They are poised to be the mindless drone worker ants of en mass except your fat rump is sitting in all their seats in Congress and the President has a strangle-hold. 

You saying "they aren't doing anything" is akin to saying "what is the 4th Turning".

You say you want them to do something THEN you will move.  That's rich since Strauss and Howe describe this exact moment when "Boomers grasp onto power until the last moment, only handing the reigns over to THE NOMAD as a figurehead, and the supporting Hero and Artist collectively helping from below".

How long will it take you to move out?  Can you open your twitter for live update?

[TheNomad]

(03-15-2020, 09:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As soon as the younger generations are ready to step up to the plate, [I will leave] sure.

When you feel your ideological dogma has been tested and met, you will pass on like Moses.  Until then, we will fling poop at candidates and tear them up while ppl in Michigan don't have safe water to drink because they are a certain hue.

[TheNomad]

(03-15-2020, 09:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Your friend is naive.

My friend is dead.  He got what he wanted.  A few years of SS.  But the idea was, he would have tried to kill it IF he lived in the 30s and 40s yet loved it because he lived when he did.

[TheNomad]

Dear Rhett,

no one likes an ass-whopping, but you guys either will take correction or you won't. If all this is real, you won't and I'm not surprised. Just know and understand, it's becoming real clear real quickly who the problem is to the future. It's got naught to do with political parties, and everything to do with a lust for ideology. Even a hate for an ideology coming from a side you don't belong to. Not everything red says is wrong. They wail continually blue comes for them in hatred, it's no less true for them either. Neither side can admit they are standing in the thoroughfare with their asses hanging out to each other, swiping poo and throwing it like apes, and everyone else is desperate to make sense of the shambles you leave in your wake.

Just know that's the case. As soon as you admit that, we can begin to heal.

Admit you are part of the problem and move out of the way. Despite your rhetoric, there are many, many young people who do not come from the era of choosing from 2 distinct sides. In fact, they have no idea what that even means. You don't trust them to "step up" but they are more qualified and advanced - more than you are in every way inadequate - to take charge.

Maybe I never finished my thought, what if every person in government over the age of 65 were mandated to retire? What happens?

- HOSTS of jobs within government become available to younger people desperate for them
- the economy moves
- young people can now afford to rent/buy
- families begin again
- LIFE begins again with hope
- young people with new ideas are everywhere and can make real change with their peers
- ppl who know nothing about ideological arguments ONLY concerned with solving problems are at the helm
- younger folks with a handle on emerging tech and a handle on emerging problems can look toward the future
- there is no more terror strangehold on our way of life
- America moves forward into a New Age
- The First Turning can begin

Is this what you want? You can make it happen by simply doing nothing. Choose to do nothing. Become passive and old. Fade away into oblivion instead of clutching onto political and structural life until your last breath.

No one keeps a bowel movement inside. We all know when it's time to let that thing out and go on feeling just fine. No one had to teach us. You have whole manuscripts telling you about the Saeculum. Revisit that stuff to see I am more right than you can ever admit. All this is a teachable moment. But you can't hear it. I understand. I'm not here to feed anyone with Gerber. These things are rough meat, chew it for yourself.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2020, 02:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Heroes can only do what they are supposed to do when you leave.

My sister has a phrase 'feral children'.  (She graduated from college with a 4.0 average, masters in early childhood education.)  As examples, my father grew up in an era before everyone had a car, but there was a street car system that let you move around freely.  They started from Abington and often ended up on the coast, several towns away.  Not an adult in sight.  No supervision.

We grew up too with little supervision.  When we wanted to play sports we would buck up and the natural leaders would pick teams.  Again, not an adult in sight.

By contrast my nice and grand nieces had dance classes.  Adults drove them everywhere.  Adults provided coaching and leadership.  All they had to do was sit there and do what the adults told them to do.  They got fairly good at doing what they were told.

They are nice kids, and the niece grew into a nice adult, but not self organizing.  They were not feral children.

The S&H system includes how childhood experiences shape generations as adults.  Todays 'heros' did not have the same childhood experience as happened in the Industrial Age.  They are different from those that came before.  Specifically, they cannot organize their way out of a paper bag.  They will sit like a lump and wait for an adult to tell them what to do.

My shutting up will not turn the Industrial Age children into clones of the Industrial Age children.  S&H built their theory around the Industrial Age, and did not check it against what was really happening.  The S&H theory states that Hero generations will be a certain way, and none of their slavish devotees are checking to see if the Hero lifestyle was the same in childhood resulting in the same sort of result.  It is as I said in the a recent post, if the Age changes, what you thought you learned in the prior Age has to be double checked, verified.  If your expectations are not being met, what are the new expectations, and why have they changed?

In this case, the invention of labor saving appliances in the home allowed the parent to do more parenting.  Cars became far more common, allowing non neighborhood interactions.  The consequence was a very different childhood, and a very different group of adults.

I see nothing to make me believe the so called Heroes will change when another generation of adults is no longer there to provide coaching and leadership.  The important thing is that they do not do it themselves.  They sit like lumps when no one tells them what to do and how to do it.

And it is a lesson in historical theories as well.  If you worship a system such as S&H without checking it against reality, one is likely to make false assumptions and have false understandings.

At any rate, until the Hero leaders appear and take charge, the older generations have to stay in the role of adults.

(03-15-2020, 02:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Your understanding is minimal. 

My understanding is different from yours, in good part because I check against reality.  For example, I just connected the Hero passive response to the 'feral children' description.  I can change and update my models.  Worshipers of a dead system can't.

(03-15-2020, 02:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: It is not true Heroes don't vote. 

Try checking against reality.

(03-15-2020, 02:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Can you open your twitter for live update?

I don't use Twitter.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2020, 02:32 PM)TheNomad Wrote:

(03-15-2020, 09:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As soon as the younger generations are ready to step up to the plate, [I will leave] sure.

When you feel your ideological dogma has been tested and met, you will pass on like Moses.  Until then, we will fling poop at candidates and tear them up while ppl in Michigan don't have safe water to drink because they are a certain hue.

The bad water in Flint was due to trying for small government, to reduce expenses, to cut taxes.  It is part of the red shtick, but the wrong part.  

As Michigan is divided, and the same water is provided to all, they were not at all targeting a particular hue.  They were not saying that look, here are people that are not like me, let's kill them.

This is another example of your firing from the hip, not backing your stuff up by checking against reality.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2020, 06:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: - HOSTS of jobs within government become available to younger people desperate for them
- the economy moves
- young people can now afford to rent/buy
- families begin again
- LIFE begins again with hope
- young people with new ideas are everywhere and can make real change with their peers
- ppl who know nothing about ideological arguments ONLY concerned with solving problems are at the helm
- younger folks with a handle on emerging tech and a handle on emerging problems can look toward the future
- there is no more terror strangehold on our way of life
- America moves forward into a New Age
- The First Turning can begin

The so called supposed Heroes will still be more like a generation of Lumps just sitting there. It may take until a new Awakening to get a Trigger that will cause a transition to the new values. The virus seems to be an adequate Trigger, though, with a few years left in the Crisis generational configuration.

[TheNomad]

(03-15-2020, 07:33 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-15-2020, 02:29 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Heroes can only do what they are supposed to do when you leave.

They are nice kids, and the niece grew into a nice adult, but not self organizing.  They were not feral children.

The S&H system includes how childhood experiences shape generations as adults.  Todays 'heros' did not have the same childhood experience as happened in the Industrial Age.  They are different from those that came before.  Specifically, they cannot organize their way out of a paper bag.  They will sit like a lump and wait for an adult to tell them what to do.

My shutting up will not turn the Industrial Age children into clones of the Industrial Age children.  S&H built their theory around the Industrial Age, and did not check it against what was really happening.  The S&H theory states that Hero generations will be a certain way, and none of their slavish devotees are checking to see if the Hero lifestyle was the same in childhood resulting in the same sort of result.  It is as I said in the a recent post, if the Age changes, what you thought you learned in the prior Age has to be double checked, verified.  If your expectations are not being met, what are the new expectations, and why have they changed?

In this case, the invention of labor saving appliances in the home allowed the parent to do more parenting.  Cars became far more common, allowing non neighborhood interactions.  The consequence was a very different childhood, and a very different group of adults.

I see nothing to make me believe the so called Heroes will change when another generation of adults is no longer there to provide coaching and leadership.  The important thing is that they do not do it themselves.  They sit like lumps when no one tells them what to do and how to do it.

Now is a very small micro-example of how I can provide a very helpful lesson to you.

I think you are fundamentally challenging what Strauss and Howe are conveying about the archetypes. Such as, a "forest-for-the-trees" thing? I'll show you EXACTLY how you are incorrect, but this is not about being correct or incorrect, or assignment of blame. I think all of this should be about progressing.

You mention here above about how cars changed a real dynamic in how ppl would evolve into their archetype.  At least, I think that is what you said.  And how, "non-neighborhood interactions" were then possible where before, they were not.  And you are speaking specifically about the Industrial-Age children, and why those Heroes would be much different than the Heroes coming on the scene right now.  In fact, all of this can be tied directly even to how you say the current Heroes cannot organize.

The fact that the current Hero was raised in a swing AWAY from personal freedom kept them very local. It actually kept them inside and attached to vehicles of "shared interaction" and "shared pop culture" in the form of

TV
then the Internet
then online gaming
then smartphones
then social media

ETC

What you don't get, the current Millennials you might call them lazy or disorganized due to your own personal experiences (*to be addressed in footnote) but they live in a culture where to be outside of the group is unheard of.  The current Hero is demanding allegience from their peers in just about every way from cultural association to political correctness to ideological temperament.  You can say here in this forum they "can't organize their way out of a paper bag" but they know nothing BUT organization.

The ARCHETYPE of the hero (regardless of their "out-of-neighborhood interactions") is they are the opposite of free-spirit and radical thinking.  It does not matter if this is the 5th Saeculum or the 12th.  The archetype (not the incarnation of it) is what needs to be assessed.

(*) Strauss & Howe in plain words (I think the exact words even) that Nomad takes the blame for being simply alive in youth, for dragging on society in coming of age, for their own failure when there are no jobs in midlife and then finally, for being hangers-on in old age.  It strongly sounds like you may be confusing the Nomad with the Hero.  The way you have said they are lazy and chronicled how they "cant organize out of a paper bag" you don't seem to have high opinion of these ppl you say are Hero.  But based on what I just said, I think your views of "them" may actually be your internal view of what you think is Hero when is actually Nomad.  Oh, and saying they don't vote.  That's definitely a Nomad trait, not a Hero.  You said that was not "reality" but I'm giving you a way out here.  I am not saying you are wrong, only you may be slightly confused in kind of what your gaze is looking at.

[pbrower2a]

We went from the expectation that government could solve everything to expectation that Big Business could solve everything. Big government means big taxes. Big Business as the solution to everything means high profits but surprisingly little opportunity. When we put profit first and keep deferring all other concerns we go too far in one direction by assuming that the sacrifices that others make lead to wonderful results for all. No, we get poverty for multitudes while a few people get to live like sultans.

No matter what the ideology, people have basic needs for certain levels of life  (Maslow's hierarchy of needs?), and if most people are compelled to live low on that hierarchy of needs in a society... then that is an unhappy society.



It's clear that the higher one is on this scale the happier one is. The dominant reality of one's life at the time is as a rule the deficiency at the lowest level. Thus if one is an aristocrat with a huge stash of wealth in France but one is in a Bolshevik torture chamber and at best can expect to be led back to a filthy, cold, crowded cell for the next torture session or for summary execution, your food is inadequate and awful... then the stash of wealth in France doesn't mean much right then, does it? One can be at the bottom, also, if one is in mortal peril from a situation (house fire, drowning, gunpoint, and of course certain injuries and illnesses)... I have seen people at the point at which people give up and fully understanding such. Late-stage pancreatic cancer, anyone?

In an extremely-bad social order, the lands of the Gulag or the KZ-lager, physiological needs can be in gross peril with little notice for anyone. The typical American prison is a little better off; the system wants people to survive ten-year sentences and have much time to regret longer ones. Hygiene can be sort-of-OK, and food may be adequate (if awful). But you really own nothing, and freedom at the end of the term implies poverty and loneliness if you have not made adequate plans -- well, in a prison one rarely gets to make plans for anything.  

But getting beyond the second level of needs may be different if the social order depends upon mass poverty to keep costs down and profits high. The worse the job, as a rule, the more frequent must be the threat of losing one's job. A really-bad employer wants people on the outside competing for jobs that people already have. Survival on such a job may require one to make compromises of values, such as acquiescence in exploitation and abuse. Having to make moral compromises (do you work unscheduled overtime off the clock so that you can keep the job only to neglect your children, or do you say "Take this job and shove it"?) A slave society operates on such a level, but so does the typical early-industrial society in which working conditions are poor by every standard, including a high risk of industrial accidents or conditions such as exposure to mercury that will ultimately bring personal ruin. If one has customer contact, then the customers are much richer than you and more powerful -- and they let you know it. People at this level might put off starting a family as a reasonable means of ensuring that the misery of life is theirs alone.  It's every man for himself economically, and happiness is unlikely. 

The third level is one in which life is more than bread alone. Companionship and friendship make life pleasant.  Even in the workplace, a company that has a low turnover of employees makes bonding between people easier. Although the second level might have higher shares of profits for elites, this one at least allows people to do genuine collaboration and to look out for each other. This is an environment in which people are less likely to have to watch their backs. Less needing to defend themselves, people can have a healthy focus on longer-term objectives. If I were a boss I would want people operating at the least at this level. People can think ahead and can plan. People can have goals to work for other than putting food on the table and paying the rent. To be sure, any worker must do a fair day's work for a fair day's pay to get or stay at this level... but most people find such worth it. People are happy enough and they are unlikely to feel exploited. They almost certainly are not relying upon addictive behavior.   People have stakes in their work, and they will not have high turnover if things get good.
One level up is esteem, ideally something that one warns by acting with above-average competence and getting recognition for such -- and being a good person when the temptation to be or do bad arises. So your deeds are praiseworthy for competent execution, and you like what you do. You are also a good person. It is not enough that people envy you -- and not even relevant. Your achievements speak for themselves. I do not care whether people envy me or pity me, thank you.   

Finally... self-actualization. I have never been close to this. At my best I have shown some of the traits. It is not simply success. People commercially successful but with messed-up lives (Jim Morrison, Marilyn Monroe) are far from here. (Maslow used Richard Wagner and Vincent Van Gogh as examples of people who were successful at one thing but miserable at practically all else. A highly-successful gangster (by the standards of his milieu) has legitimate fear of being killed by a rival (Bugsy Siegel) or law enforcement (John Dillinger), or ending up with a harsh prison term (John Gotti). 

Going up this scale of priorities is satisfying. Going down is miserable. I know my limitation now, and even the third level is difficult for me to attain.

[Eric the Green]

Boomers should opt out and die? I dunno. Being a boomer I don't like that too much.

Are they opting out? It appears not. The Democratic blue boomers voted in droves for Joe Biden and grossly outvoted the poor millennials who stayed home or voted for Sanders, and the Xers are caught somewhere in between. Meanwhile other boomers and Xers and even some millennials are fascinated by a horrible demagogue who is entertaining but is foisting everything wrong with America on us, including especially the lack of interest in seeing that people have the walls they need and the other basic things they need, and the fewer opportunities for young people to rise in society instead of being consigned to debt and drift.

So I find myself agreeing that boomers should get out of the way so progressives could rule instead of "moderate" corporate-supported candidates who don't want to rock the boat too much and disturb the comfort us boomers are used to. Obviously though, it's not happening, and the only political candidates who can win in either party tend to be boomers or even late silent war babies like Biden, Sanders and Bloomberg.

Is it a red vs. blue fight? Of course it is. But the blues don't seem to have their act together enough to put forward someone who offers a powerful progressive alternative to the status quo, especially the status quo of the Reagan ideology that has determined most of these problems.

So it is indeed IDEOLOGY that is in the way. There's the fundie Christians who want to impose a theocracy, there's the xenophobes and militarists and other nationalists and racists, and then there's the big one that seems to fit in with the other two, Reaganomics. Trickle down econnomics; let business have its way and the job creaters will provide. Just stop giving welfare to "those lazy people" (cue racist dog whistle) or those illegal immigrants (cue Trump's xenophobia), so that "my money" doesn't get taken away "by force" through taxes and given to these freeloaders. That's the scam. That's the rub. And it's the Republican Party's ideology. It is red vs. blue, because the blue side, timidly and inadequately, is the party of the common people who reject this ideology to one degree or the other. The problem, among other things, is the timidity of the blue side, the half measures that are proposed and occasionally taken, but are stiffly rejected by the red side, leaving us with in effect a regime of Reaganomics and trickle-down free-market ideology that has reigned for 40 years.

Is this a boomer vs the younger generations thing? Only if you understand that the boomers have deserted their old hippie and yippie dreams and are now just defending their comfort by supporting either deep red or timid shades of blue. The millennials, and not the hapless nomads caught in the middle and largely supporting Reaganomics because they were brought up under it, are the generation that is supposed to end this stalemate, but only by going deep blue and defeating the deep red. To do this, millennials will need to be engaged and discover their civic identity. In 2018 they discovered that midterms are part of their civic life. They have yet to discover primary elections, apparently.

The book didn't say heroes are supposed to do their thing when the prophets leave. Quite the reverse. The prophets are supposed to be those who lead the heroes onward toward victory. Today's prophets may be inadequate, but that's no excuse for heroes to opt out and not vote, which they didn't do on super tuesday.

Progress always needs political progress, and a true deep blue is the only way this progress will happen.

The culture war, and such culture as the boomers and silents created, is largely in the background right now for all generations. But the boomer new age culture is always relevant, and we are wise to heed its lessons and enjoy its fruits. What political progress we make will be stale indeed if we ditch everything the Awakening taught us. But without the political progress in this 4T, the culture may not survive either.

So, the times we are in require political activism for deep blue policies. That means defeating the Republicans utterly. The stalemate will continue until deep blue defeats deep red. Compromise is not viable in a 4T. Blame that on boomers if you can, but I think the problem is not that boomers are stubborn ideologues, and that Xers and millennials are not. The problem is that the blue boomers and Xers are not deep blue enough, and that the millennials, who are deep blue, have not yet risen up enough to defeat deep red. But our nation depends on this rising up of the blue wave among all generations. Only the blue side can get the nation moving in the direction that leads to all having enough. That is the deep blue platform, so if you support the goal, you must stand on it.

Blues need to get back to 1966, and feel it still, like in this 1966 commercial. And to grow up, get brave, and get on the horse and ride.

[beechnut79]

(03-15-2020, 01:09 AM)TheNomad Wrote:

(03-14-2020, 11:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: From my perspective, the problem is not boomers vs everyone else.  It is red against blue.  The period when the blue were in charge, America was great.  When the conservative era came, it was not.  The progressives had their act together.  The conservatives had their act together too, if you were upset by change, a racist, or an elite.  If one can stretch your mind it is possible to see why America changed, reasons why we asked not what we could do for our country, but what the country could do for us.  You can only strive for greatness so long.  Then you need a break.

But the break can’t last forever.  The time is coming, is perhaps already here, that we have to see clearly and work hard for a cause larger than one's self.

ima try to be kind to you w this, you say it isn't boomers/prophets against everyone also, but red on blue.

That is very, very incorrect and wrong.  It's part of why you need to opt out and no longer participate.  So long as red v blue exists, nothing will happen.  It exists because boomer/prophet IS red AND blue. 

It is boomer against itself at the cost of everyone else.  IDEOLOGY IS KILLING AMERICA.  Whose ideology? 

Hero is not battling against itself.  They are a collective unit that does not care who is RIGHT so long as it WORKS.
Artist is not battling against itself.  All THEY want is to envision a world that won't end in fire before they get laid.
Prophet fighting to the death over Vietnam and Civil Rights (it was good then, NOT GOOD NOW) still want to throw rocks and engage the division with WAR
Nomad doesn't give a shit about any of it, they know boomer/prophet/ideology is the problem, maybe some of us are smart enough to know we can only hope for change when boomer/prophet dies or opts out

will you give us all a chance?  NO ONE ELSE is battling over ideology except boomer/prophet.

If you cannot accept that blue is an ideology and red is an ideology, we are not going to make it.  We have politicians making decisions or NOT making decisions simply based on what side it comes from.  There are lawmakers and pundits who ONLY WANT TO STOP PROGRESS.

You say it is red that wants to stop progress.  I disagree and that is not true.  I could easily now say blue does want progress.  In fact, I believe that.  Yet, underlying it all is IDEOLOGY AS A WEAPON and the idea ideology can save us NO............................................. ideology cannot save anything. It puts up barriers that can never be crossed simply based on dogma and ritual.

It is no different than an Orthodox Priest battling a Catholic one over WHO founded the church
neither of you did, stfu and go perform a baptism and let everyone else get to work
and yet this persists "I'M not the problem THEY ARE"

and guess what, the Hero is sitting there going JUST SHUT UP AND DO SOMETHING!  FIX THE PROBLEMS.  WE DON'T CARE WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG, WE DON'T CARE WHAT SIDE YOU ARE ON, WE WOULD RATHER YOU TAKE OFF YOUR T-SHIRT WITH THE ANIMAL ON IT AND PRETEND YOU DON'T HAVE A SIDE SO WE DON'T SIT IN ROOMS FOR THE NEXT DECADE DECIDING WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG BUT HOW TO FIX THE PROBLEM

Hero and Artist are poised with a collective spirit to FIX that you do not have.  You will never have it.  Individualists and free spirits I think cannot even understand what that means.  I don't have it either.  I am more Prophet than Hero.  I want to do my own thing, I have my own values, I do not blend in with the crowd, I do not engage in Groupthink.

Guess what?  Hero and Artists are all those things.  That's why their culture is so stale.  It has to be.  The need for them to be forced into a collective unit to solve problems is the only thing that counter-balances the rancor of now with prophet and their red v blue battle to the end.

AS SOON AS RUSH LIMBAUGH DIES, AMERICA WILL SEE A MARKED CHANGE.  That's not because he is red, but because he is prophet.  He is a great cause of the current division.  It is my personal opinion we notice red more because there are less of them out in public that way. They NEED less because they follow easier. It's no mistake he is about to die right as we are moving through the Great Gate of this 4th Turning.  It also highlights my idea prophet just needs to GO AWAY.  Since they are so freaking stubborn, only death can lift that curse.  Asking a prophet to opt out is like asking a pig to refrain from the trough.  It is not in their nature.

if you dont think everyone else is realizing who is the problem you made a mistake

Having said that, each cycle does its thing, and tho I loved reruns of Donna Reed, I used to try to imagine what that idyllic was.  Just 25 years later, it seemed like I was living on a different planet.  None of that existed in my world.  Not the clean neighborhoods or the overall peace and safety of what I saw depicted, the overall cohesion of society when they went in public.

I know the difference between TV entertainment and real life. I am speaking metaphorically.

I am saying, it wasn't until I really understood these books I realized how utterly bland, stale and worthless culture was back then.  How there was a social need to vomit and create new things.  Thank god for those things.  Who could imagine a world without all of it?  Those things brought upheaval and travail, but had to happen.

NOW, understand.  Prophet/boomer made that happen.  Moving to the present, that paradigm shift is over.  We can no longer afford it, and it's not necessary.  America is fully closed off to social change and societal revolution.  What it needs now is structural and procedural revolution.  The next archetypes are there and waiting. 

Imagine if everyone from government above, say, 70 was forced to retire.  The 4th Turning would be finished in the next presidential term.  We would be in full swing to a good First Turning.

I would say even 65yo.  I mean, THAT was the age the New Deal and Great Society decided was the age of retirement.  WHY are there so many skeletons clinging on to political life who just absolutely refuse to give up their chair and move on? 

IDEOLOGY.
They feel like they just cannot give up their shit until their "work" is done.  What is their "work"?  It is to implement and apply their ideology before they pass on.  They have this god-granted theme in their minds they were put here to enlighten everyone and right a wronged ship.

BUT YOUR TIME HAS PASSED.  THIS AINT VIETNAM AND FLOWER CHILDREN ARE NOT COOL.  LET THE HEROES DO THEIR THING.

WILL YOU?

The flower children had moved on before the end of the Vietnam War, and one of the infamous (in many minds) Koch Brothers has now passed on.