Trump & Putin. Yes, It's Really a Thing

[Dan '82]

So a Saeculum that started with McCartyism is ending with a candidate in the pocket of the Kremlin...


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trum...ly-a-thing

Quote:Over the last year there has been a recurrent refrain about the seeming bromance between Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. More seriously, but relatedly, many believe Trump is an admirer and would-be emulator of Putin's increasingly autocratic and illiberal rule. But there's quite a bit more to the story. At a minimum, Trump appears to have a deep financial dependence on Russian money from persons close to Putin. And this is matched to a conspicuous solicitousness to Russian foreign policy interests where they come into conflict with US policies which go back decades through administrations of both parties. There is also something between a non-trivial and a substantial amount of evidence suggesting Putin-backed financial support of Trump or a non-tacit alliance between the two men.

Let me start by saying I'm no Russia hawk. I have long been skeptical of US efforts to extend security guarantees to countries within what the Russians consider their 'near abroad' or extend such guarantees or police Russian interactions with new states which for centuries were part of either the Russian Empire or the USSR. This isn't a matter of indifference to these countries. It is based on my belief in seriously thinking through the potential costs of such policies. In the case of the Baltics, those countries are now part of NATO. Security commitments have been made which absolutely must be kept. But there are many other areas where such commitments have not been made. My point in raising this is that I do not come to this question or these policy questions as someone looking for confrontation or cold relations with Russia...



http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trum...ly-a-thing

[playwrite]

(07-23-2016, 04:20 PM)Dan Wrote: So a Saeculum that started with McCartyism is ending with a candidate in the pocket of the Kremlin...


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trum...ly-a-thing

Quote:Over the last year there has been a recurrent refrain about the seeming bromance between Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. More seriously, but relatedly, many believe Trump is an admirer and would-be emulator of Putin's increasingly autocratic and illiberal rule. But there's quite a bit more to the story. At a minimum, Trump appears to have a deep financial dependence on Russian money from persons close to Putin. And this is matched to a conspicuous solicitousness to Russian foreign policy interests where they come into conflict with US policies which go back decades through administrations of both parties. There is also something between a non-trivial and a substantial amount of evidence suggesting Putin-backed financial support of Trump or a non-tacit alliance between the two men.

Let me start by saying I'm no Russia hawk. I have long been skeptical of US efforts to extend security guarantees to countries within what the Russians consider their 'near abroad' or extend such guarantees or police Russian interactions with new states which for centuries were part of either the Russian Empire or the USSR. This isn't a matter of indifference to these countries. It is based on my belief in seriously thinking through the potential costs of such policies. In the case of the Baltics, those countries are now part of NATO. Security commitments have been made which absolutely must be kept. But there are many other areas where such commitments have not been made. My point in raising this is that I do not come to this question or these policy questions as someone looking for confrontation or cold relations with Russia...



http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trum...ly-a-thing

This is the most frightening thing I have ever read about Trump; and that is saying a lot.

I know Russian culture, and Trump being into them 100s of millions of dollars means they own him, and by "they," that means Putin.

The most telling thing, as noted by TPM, is the one thing the Trump people insisted about the GOP platform, that they otherwise didn't give a shXt about, is the language on Ukraine. 

The other is Trump's campaign manager having been the communications director for the former Ukrainian PM, Yanukovych, who is Putin's puppet that he wants to put back in charge.

This really begins to explain a ton of things.

This needs to get picked up by the mass media.  Post this on as many forums as you can!

[Ragnarök_62]

From that E-rag, Zerohedge - We're all Putin's "useful idiots" now.   The MSM sez so!

Presenting "Putin's Useful Idiot": Anyone Who Disagrees With The Establishment


by Tyler Durden
Jul 24, 2016 5:58 PM
172
SHARES
Twitter Facebook Reddit [/url][url=http://www.zerohedge.com/print/567015]
This weekend we once again got confirmation that any time the generic narrative spectacularly falls apart, and the "establishment" is caught with its pants down (or, in the case of the DNC, engaging in borderline election fraud leading to what the FT just described as "Democrats in turmoil") what does it do? Why blame Putin of course, and more specifically his "useful idiots", and hope the whole thing blows over quickly.
Not convinced? Here is the proof.






 
And of course:

h/t @Bryan MacDonald


...

Meanwhile at Putin's Dacha



Now children,  don't poke the bear.  It causes shit-shows.

[Eric the Green]

Poke the Bear.

Poke him till he blinks.

We don't need a president who cavorts and conspires with dictators. Not Putin nor anyone else.

[Ragnarök_62]

(07-25-2016, 11:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Poke the Bear.

Poke him till he blinks.

We don't need a president who cavorts and conspires with dictators. Not Putin nor anyone else.

That's stupid.  Russia has nukes.

OTOH, how about cavorting with nations that behead folks?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34838937

We don't need a president who cavorts and conspires with Arab sheiks.  The House of Saud nor anyone else.

lyrics Wrote:Kings and queens and presidents
Are tryin' to take the world in hand
Jokers and freaks and Arab sheiks
Are fightin' over chunks of sand
But oh, my eyes have seen the glory
For the coming of the chord
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Don't you know that's the way we're gonna change it?
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Rock & Roll
You don't need to fight when you're rockin' right
Tin soldiers march around the world
No matter what the people say
One man makes all the policies
While the rest of us get blown away
Yes, tonight you got the power
To lift your voices up and scream
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Don't you know that's the way we're gonna change it?
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Rock & Roll
We'll burn it up tonight, burn with all our might
We don't need to fight when we're rockin' right
We will rock & roll
Come on now, everybody
Won't you join me in my dream?
Now's the time to lift your voices
From a whisper to a scream
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Don't you know that's the way we're gonna change it?
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Rock & Roll
We need to rock, rock
We need to roll, rock
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
We gotta rock, rock
To take control, rock
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
We need to rock, rock
We need to roll, rock
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
We gotta rock, rock
To take control, rock
Rock & Roll, come on
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Don't you know that's the way we're gonna change it?
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Listen everybody we're gonna rearrange it
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Yes, we're gonna save the world
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Oh, it's gonna save the world
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Don't you know that's the way we're gonna change it?
Rock & Roll's gonna save the world
Rock & Roll

#JillSteinOrBust

#NoMushroomClouds

lyrics Wrote:It's a bloody scene
Hear the population scream
As the missile rushes in
Can't you feel the flames of hell?
Can't you hear the tollin' bell?
It's the sound of the world coming to an end
Is it too late? Too late?
To make to make the politicians bend
We let the insane play their fools game
They're runnin' a race for death
We want,
Life, Life, Life
You'd better pull your head out of the sand
If you want
Life, Life, Life
It's time to break down the chain of command
When will they be satisfied?
After everybody's died?
That's the way it seems to be
Not only the USA
Everybody's to blame
We gotta stop the war machine
Is it too late? Too late?
To stop their evil master plan
It's a fools game and a mistake
When they laugh in the face of death
We want,
Life, Life, Life
You'd better pull your head out of the sand
If you want
Life, Life, Life
It's time to break down the chain of command

[Eric the Green]

Sounds like rock n roll will burn the world, which we'll surely get with the Trump/Putin/Ung cabal.

And to think he doesn't even pay for the rights to the rock 'n' roll he uses! Including "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and "It's the End of the World as we Know It!"

https://youtu.be/32n4h0kn-88

http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...ml#pid5855

[Anthony '58]

If you want to fight the Muslims, cozying up to both Russia and China is the right thing to do, since if both at least remain neutral in the Second Cold War, the Muslims have no shot to win - and this shouldn't be difficult, considering that the Muslims have irredentist claims on territory in both countries.

And give Putin props for supporting the one true moderate Muslim in the Middle East.

[pbrower2a]

I'll go with India, which has proved as effective as any country in dealing with Islamic terrorism. India is the world's largest democracy, and I could make the case that democracy is safer in India than in the USA. So far another desirable ally is Indonesia, the second-largest democracy in the world should the 2016 and 2018 elections go badly for American democracy. Indonesia demonstrates the possibility of coexistence between Islam and democracy.

[playwrite]

(07-26-2016, 12:43 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(07-25-2016, 11:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Poke the Bear.

Poke him till he blinks.

We don't need a president who cavorts and conspires with dictators. Not Putin nor anyone else.

That's stupid.  Russia has nukes.

OTOH, how about cavorting with nations that behead folks?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34838937

We don't need a president who cavorts and conspires with Arab sheiks.  The House of Saud nor anyone else.

Quote:Obama has pushed back on the House of Saud more than any other President; with the Iran agreement and taking on the Salafists  in both Syria and Iraq - basically, he has sent the message to both the Saudis (and the Israelis) that we're just not much into you any more.

Putin has greatly complicated Syria, and delayed any reasonable peace obtainment.  It's not surprising that he would prop up his boy, Assad, to keep his warm water port, but I think Kerry's got it right that there can be no long lasting peace as long as Assad is in power.

And of course, Putin's mischief all ties back to the sanctions, but more importantly, just being corralled by a ring of Eastern European countries whose people prefer to look West not East.  I realize that there is some truth in Western style elites doing a number on these emerging economies and society; they need to be dealt with just as much there as they do in our own back yard.  But its ridiculous to compare that to what Putin's kleptocracy  

It is that kleptocracy that Trump has used to flourish in his personal wealth, and more than willing to sale us down the river to.  Neither the Saudis, the Chinese, or any one else comes close to the potential harm Putin wants to impose on our society - he blames us for the what he considers the biggest and most shameful mistake in history, the fall of the Soviet Union - as he should.  We'd be stupid to discount him.

[/quote]

[playwrite]

George Will takes it there -

George Will: Trump won’t release tax returns because they show his ties to Russian oligarchs

Quote:George Will believes Donald Trump won’t release his tax returns because they may show how deeply he’s involved with Russian oligarchs.
The Fox News contributor and conservative columnist, who left the Republican Partylast month because he couldn’t support Trump, said Monday night that he believes the GOP’s nominee may have improper relationships with foreign investors, reported The Hill.
Russian agents are accused of hacking into the Democratic National Committee’s email servers and sharing private data, possibly to help Trump win the November election, which has underscored concerns about his campaign’s ties to the former Soviet Union.
Fox News anchor Bret Baier asked Will about those concerns, although he pointed out that even Democratic lawmakers have not drawn a direct link between Trump and Russia.
“Well, it’s the sort of thing we might learn if we saw the candidates’ tax returns,” Will said. “Perhaps one more reason why we’re not seeing his tax returns, because he is deeply involved in dealing with Russia oligarchs and others. Whether that’s good, bad or indifferent, it’s probably the reasonable surmise.”

[Eric the Green]

(07-26-2016, 08:08 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: If you want to fight the Muslims, cozying up to both Russia and China is the right thing to do, since if both at least remain neutral in the Second Cold War, the Muslims have no shot to win - and this shouldn't be difficult, considering that the Muslims have irredentist claims on territory in both countries.

Prove that there is a solid state entity called "Muslims." No, you can't. This is not the 7th century.

Quote:And give Putin props for supporting the one true moderate Muslim in the Middle East.

If you were in the hospital because he destroyed your home, and then bombed your hospital, you wouldn't think this "Muslim" was a "moderate."

[Ragnarök_62]

(07-26-2016, 12:09 PM)playwrite Wrote:

(07-26-2016, 12:43 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(07-25-2016, 11:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: / Playwrite

Quote:

Quote:Obama has pushed back on the House of Saud more than any other President; with the Iran agreement and taking on the Salafists  in both Syria and Iraq - basically, he has sent the message to both the Saudis (and the Israelis) that we're just not much into you any more.

To clear up what may be a misunderstanding: Essentially, I think humans as a species are just plain tacky, tacky animals.   That attribute is value neutral since we should be known by the animal kingdom's company we keep for the most part.  We're in deep with dogs [nothing much more than domesticated wolves} and cats which are extraordinary predators in their own right. Don't ask me wrt cats, just ask any yard bird. Ancient wolves hooked in with tribal humans so they could sponge off human kills and in return, the wolves provided early warning systems and hunt help.   Since humans are predators , evolution favors some humans getting useful brains for the killing. That's why we get some folks who have assorted quirks say like Hillary and Trump. Both are very good at exploiting the situation on the ground.  The problem with this trait is that it can be a nuisance in modern society in that it over reaches and infringes on others' rights.
Also, btw, Putin tends to have selfsame traits as well.

So , now how does this fit into the Middle East? Well, the Mideast has oil, which is a very coveted thing. Oil seems to provoke ancient hunter instincts really, really bad. We need to acknowledge the dark side that exists in humans and have.  That means the tribes of the USA and Russia need to over ride the "we gotta get that oil" bad instinct and banish leaders who are prone to hunt. Now, Russia, as you said is in it for a warm water port, not oil, because they have enough of their own oil. Finally, you have the tribes of the Middle East. There aren't really any nations per say there, just imaginary lines in the sand. There is no Syria , Iraq, Jordan, Israel, etc. in reality.  It's just assorted tribes. That means the best course is to fob the mess off on somebody, anybody who wants it. Like is said wrt Afghanistan, it's the grave yard of empires, well because it's not a place per say.  It's just a spot with again, tribes. Tribes are just unpredictable and you'll never, ever know what you'll get.

Quote:Putin has greatly complicated Syria, and delayed any reasonable peace obtainment.  It's not surprising that he would prop up his boy, Assad, to keep his warm water port, but I think Kerry's got it right that there can be no long lasting peace as long as Assad is in power.

See above. The obvious thing to do is fob the whole mess off. Peace will not originate from anything the US does, but rather how the volatile tribal  situation unfolds unto itself. The same goes for Assad. He's just a  master predator who may or may not keep power. That fate will ultimately fall to the tribes.

Quote:And of course, Putin's mischief all ties back to the sanctions, but more importantly, just being corralled by a ring of Eastern European countries whose people prefer to look West not East.

A counter idea is that I rather doubt the US would take lightly Russian military exercises in international waters off the East/West coast.  I think the US would really go nuts if say there we Russian military bases going up in Canada / Mexico.  Add to that, Russia had two very bad experiences with invasions from the West. Since Russia is a major power, discounting its fears is not at all a wise course of action.

Quote:  I realize that there is some truth in Western style elites doing a number on these emerging economies and society; they need to be dealt with just as much there as they do in our own back yard.  But its ridiculous to compare that to what Putin's kleptocracy  

From the above, I'm not factoring in who's kleptocracy is better or worse

Quote:It is that kleptocracy that Trump has used to flourish in his personal wealth, and more than willing to sale us down the river to.

The question between the exclusive choice of Clinton vis/vis Trump in a foreign policy with Russia is strictly based upon which option plays a part on the ultimate environmental disaster - thermonuclear war. Global warming is a piker compared to that.  As one who grew up in the shadow of the Cold War, that is a really big deal. As for Trump, the best option if for Hillary to disclose her talks and Trump to disclose his taxes. If Hillary folks think Trump is a shyster, then that trade off is well worth it. Think of it as a game of spades.
Who do you think has the queen of spades?  Hillary or Trump?

Quote: Neither the Saudis, the Chinese, or any one else comes close to the potential harm Putin wants to impose on our society - he blames us for the what he considers the biggest and most shameful mistake in history, the fall of the Soviet Union - as he should.  We'd be stupid to discount him.

Yes, however nuclear arsenals can't be wished away.  A policy of agree on shit/ disagree on other shit is fine. Relations with Russia should be handled in a realistic manner, not some idealistic dream that humans are angels in general.  We're not and we'll never, ever be.

[playwrite]

Did Trump jump the shark today -

Quote:"But it would be interesting to see. I will tell you this. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let's see if that happens. "

Clinton campaign responded -

Quote:"This has to be the first time that a major presidential candidate has actively encouraged a foreign power to conduct espionage against his political opponent. That's not hyperbole, those are just the facts. This has gone from being a matter of curiosity, and a matter of politics, to being a national security issue."

A quick Google News search shows this is not just in the blogsphere any more -

Politics|Donald Trump Calls on Russia to Find Hillary Clinton's ...
New York Times-53 minutes ago
Donald J. Trump said Wednesday that he hoped Russia had hacked Hillary Clinton's email, essentially encouraging an adversarial foreign power's cyberspying ...
Donald Trump Makes Startling Call for Russia to Find Clinton's Emails
Fortune-46 minutes ago

Trump Calls on Russia to 'Find' Missing Clinton Emails
NBCNews.com-59 minutes ago

Trump to Russia: hack Hillary Clinton's 'missing' emails and publish ...
In-Depth-The Guardian-57 minutes ago

Trump challenges Russia to hack Clinton emails
Opinion-Jamaica Observer-24 minutes ago

Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton's emails
In-Depth-Washington Post-51 minutes ago

He just threw kerosene on the fire.

[playwrite]

Twitter is lighting up over this. A new hashtag - #trumptreason.


What a set up for tonight's DNC speakers. Obama and Biden were already all over the outlets trashing him on foreign policy. The are going to rip him a new one over this tonight.

This could be the event for the GOP x-overs to finally throw in the towel. The best would be spinning this as crazed national security to appeal to White suburban hockey moms to x-over.

[jadams]

(07-27-2016, 12:25 PM)playwrite Wrote: Did Trump jump the shark today -

Quote:"But it would be interesting to see. I will tell you this. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let's see if that happens. "

Clinton campaign responded -

Quote:"This has to be the first time that a major presidential candidate has actively encouraged a foreign power to conduct espionage against his political opponent. That's not hyperbole, those are just the facts. This has gone from being a matter of curiosity, and a matter of politics, to being a national security issue."

A quick Google News search shows this is not just in the blogsphere any more -

Politics|Donald Trump Calls on Russia to Find Hillary Clinton's ...
New York Times-53 minutes ago
Donald J. Trump said Wednesday that he hoped Russia had hacked Hillary Clinton's email, essentially encouraging an adversarial foreign power's cyberspying ...
Donald Trump Makes Startling Call for Russia to Find Clinton's Emails
Fortune-46 minutes ago

Trump Calls on Russia to 'Find' Missing Clinton Emails
NBCNews.com-59 minutes ago

Trump to Russia: hack Hillary Clinton's 'missing' emails and publish ...
In-Depth-The Guardian-57 minutes ago

Trump challenges Russia to hack Clinton emails
Opinion-Jamaica Observer-24 minutes ago

Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton's emails
In-Depth-Washington Post-51 minutes ago

He just threw kerosene on the fire.

Russia, if you're listening, please find and release Donald's tax returns.


It would be nice if the media followed the money once in a while

[playwrite]

Quote:Paul Ryan had to release a statement clarifying that "Putin should stay out of this election."

Now there's a profile in courage! 

[playwrite]

Leon Panetta is schedule to talk tonight at the DNC as well. 

This is his response to Trump's request to Russia to hack emails -

Quote:Now former CIA chief Leon Panetta has told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour that Trump’s actions call his loyalty to the U.S. into question. What’s more, Amanpour says Panetta claims Trump’s statements raise questions over whether he’s conspiring with a foreign power.

“You have a presidential candidate who is, in fact, asking the Russians to engage in American politics,” Panetta said. “I think that’s beyond the pale… he is truly not qualified to be president of the United States.”

Along with Obama and Biden, Panetta will also tear Trump a new one over this tonight.

Trump must of know this, and decided to go for the "all publicity, even bad publicity, is good publicity."

Will the no-nothing Trump sheeple not only excuse this, but cheer it as sticking it to the Establishment?  I have little doubt that they will.

[naf140230]

(07-27-2016, 12:25 PM)playwrite Wrote: Did Trump jump the shark today -

Quote:"But it would be interesting to see. I will tell you this. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let's see if that happens. "

Clinton campaign responded -

Quote:"This has to be the first time that a major presidential candidate has actively encouraged a foreign power to conduct espionage against his political opponent. That's not hyperbole, those are just the facts. This has gone from being a matter of curiosity, and a matter of politics, to being a national security issue."

A quick Google News search shows this is not just in the blogsphere any more -

Politics|Donald Trump Calls on Russia to Find Hillary Clinton's ...
New York Times-53 minutes ago
Donald J. Trump said Wednesday that he hoped Russia had hacked Hillary Clinton's email, essentially encouraging an adversarial foreign power's cyberspying ...
Donald Trump Makes Startling Call for Russia to Find Clinton's Emails
Fortune-46 minutes ago

Trump Calls on Russia to 'Find' Missing Clinton Emails
NBCNews.com-59 minutes ago

Trump to Russia: hack Hillary Clinton's 'missing' emails and publish ...
In-Depth-The Guardian-57 minutes ago

Trump challenges Russia to hack Clinton emails
Opinion-Jamaica Observer-24 minutes ago

Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton's emails
In-Depth-Washington Post-51 minutes ago

He just threw kerosene on the fire.

What Trump has done is nothing more than treason.

[playwrite]

Somebody didn't get the memo -

Mike Pence warns of ‘serious consequences’ if Russia hacked DNC emails

Quote: Republican vice presidential candidate Mike Pence on Wednesday vowed there would be “serious consequences” if the FBI determines Russia is behind recent hacking attempt and is meddling in the Nov. 8 U.S. presidential election.
“If it is Russia and they are interfering in our elections, I can assure you both parties and the United States government will ensure there are serious consequences,” the Indiana governor and Donald Trump’s running mate said in a statement.
Pence’s comments come as the FBI is investigating the release of sensitive Democratic Party emails. He spoke moments after Trump told reporters that it’s “far-fetched” to think Russia hacked Democrats to help him.

We're going to witness another profile-in-courage as Pence tries to walk that back - maybe explain that its now okay for the Russians to hack our emails because Trump has now publicly asked them to?

[Eric the Green]

(07-27-2016, 01:28 PM)naf140230 Wrote:

(07-27-2016, 12:25 PM)playwrite Wrote: Did Trump jump the shark today -

Quote:"But it would be interesting to see. I will tell you this. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. Let's see if that happens. "

Clinton campaign responded -

Quote:"This has to be the first time that a major presidential candidate has actively encouraged a foreign power to conduct espionage against his political opponent. That's not hyperbole, those are just the facts. This has gone from being a matter of curiosity, and a matter of politics, to being a national security issue."

A quick Google News search shows this is not just in the blogsphere any more -

Politics|Donald Trump Calls on Russia to Find Hillary Clinton's ...
New York Times-53 minutes ago
Donald J. Trump said Wednesday that he hoped Russia had hacked Hillary Clinton's email, essentially encouraging an adversarial foreign power's cyberspying ...
Donald Trump Makes Startling Call for Russia to Find Clinton's Emails
Fortune-46 minutes ago

Trump Calls on Russia to 'Find' Missing Clinton Emails
NBCNews.com-59 minutes ago

Trump to Russia: hack Hillary Clinton's 'missing' emails and publish ...
In-Depth-The Guardian-57 minutes ago

Trump challenges Russia to hack Clinton emails
Opinion-Jamaica Observer-24 minutes ago

Trump urges Russia to hack Clinton's emails
In-Depth-Washington Post-51 minutes ago

He just threw kerosene on the fire.

What Trump has done is nothing more than treason.

My goodness; I hope the people get the memo. I hope this bursts Trump's bounce. Dump the Grump.