The 4T Generational Constellations - Red v Blue

[Marypoza]

(10-09-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-08-2020, 10:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 10:38 AM)David Horn Wrote: Red and Blue may be adversaries, but neither can exist without the other. It's a kind of codependency.  Eliminating the Blue faction would codify a preference for the private over the public, and keep government small and ineffective -- but no one would care all that much.  Those of us in the downscale section of society would laud our betters for how clever and hardworking they are, and the upscale crowd would feel  comfortable knowing that they deserved every dollar and perk they have.  If Red disappeared, something more akin to true socialism might emerge organically, and we would all be one and happy.

-- l'm a socialist so that couldn't come soon enough 4 me

Don't sell everything on the expectation that we're getting there soon, but something like that is inevitable in the long term.  We've been on the way for over 100 years, so it may be longer than either us will be around.

-- l never said l thought we're getting there soon. l said it couldn't come fast enough 4 me. otoh this 4th turning seems 2 stalled. lf it finally gets moving & we come out of it w/healthcare & UBI, that's a start

[David Horn]

(10-10-2020, 07:14 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-09-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-08-2020, 10:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 10:38 AM)David Horn Wrote: Red and Blue may be adversaries, but neither can exist without the other. It's a kind of codependency.  Eliminating the Blue faction would codify a preference for the private over the public, and keep government small and ineffective -- but no one would care all that much.  Those of us in the downscale section of society would laud our betters for how clever and hardworking they are, and the upscale crowd would feel  comfortable knowing that they deserved every dollar and perk they have.  If Red disappeared, something more akin to true socialism might emerge organically, and we would all be one and happy.

-- l'm a socialist so that couldn't come soon enough 4 me

Don't sell everything on the expectation that we're getting there soon, but something like that is inevitable in the long term.  We've been on the way for over 100 years, so it may be longer than either us will be around.

-- l never said l thought we're getting there soon. l said it couldn't come fast enough 4 me. otoh this 4th turning seems 2 stalled. lf it finally gets moving & we come out of it w/healthcare & UBI, that's a start

Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

[sbarrera]

(10-10-2020, 11:31 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I was browsing on YouTube yesterday.  At one point, instead of the usual ad, there was this commentary that stated that America is almost two nations now, Red and Blue.

The commentary went on to list contrasting differences between red and blue.  Such as small government and lower taxes in red, versus larger government and higher taxes in blue.

The whole red zone/blue zone analysis started way back in the 2000 election. I remember the terms being used then. I can't find a reference from back then easily, but Wikipedia confirms it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states...lue_states

[sbarrera]

Paul Zimmy Finn describes the two zones, if not the two constellations. The Johnson vision versus the Reagan vision.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2020, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-10-2020, 07:14 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-09-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-08-2020, 10:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 10:38 AM)David Horn Wrote: Red and Blue may be adversaries, but neither can exist without the other. It's a kind of codependency.  Eliminating the Blue faction would codify a preference for the private over the public, and keep government small and ineffective -- but no one would care all that much.  Those of us in the downscale section of society would laud our betters for how clever and hardworking they are, and the upscale crowd would feel  comfortable knowing that they deserved every dollar and perk they have.  If Red disappeared, something more akin to true socialism might emerge organically, and we would all be one and happy.

-- l'm a socialist so that couldn't come soon enough 4 me

Don't sell everything on the expectation that we're getting there soon, but something like that is inevitable in the long term.  We've been on the way for over 100 years, so it may be longer than either us will be around.

-- l never said l thought we're getting there soon. l said it couldn't come fast enough 4 me. otoh this 4th turning seems 2 stalled. lf it finally gets moving & we come out of it w/healthcare & UBI, that's a start

Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

I guess it's just because the center-left is chicken of the Reaganomics appeal. I guess they don't have the guts to listen to Rachel Maddow and get the f*ck over it. Plus, who's got the money?

[Marypoza]

(10-19-2020, 10:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-10-2020, 07:14 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-09-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-08-2020, 10:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote: -- l'm a socialist so that couldn't come soon enough 4 me

Don't sell everything on the expectation that we're getting there soon, but something like that is inevitable in the long term.  We've been on the way for over 100 years, so it may be longer than either us will be around.

-- l never said l thought we're getting there soon. l said it couldn't come fast enough 4 me. otoh this 4th turning seems 2 stalled. lf it finally gets moving & we come out of it w/healthcare & UBI, that's a start

Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

I guess it's just because the center-left is chicken of the Reaganomics appeal. I guess they don't have the guts to listen to Rachel Maddow and get the f*ck over it. Plus, who's got the money?

-- Eric there's plenty of $$. the Govt just needs 2 quit dropping bombs on innocent ppl & bankrolling Israel, where they have universal healthcare, btw

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2020, 11:31 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I was browsing on YouTube yesterday.  At one point, instead of the usual ad, there was this commentary that stated that America is almost two nations now, Red and Blue.

The commentary went on to list contrasting differences between red and blue.  Such as small government and lower taxes in red, versus larger government and higher taxes in blue.

I would say that's a good summary of the red slogan, and the blue point of view as seen from the red side. That was very likely the viewpoint from which the video you saw was made. I may have also seen it.

It's more complicated than that, because the red side is not fully libertarian. It wants the government to do things too, like outlaw abortion and gay marriage, send police to quell non-existent riots and restore "law and order," spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives on unnecessary military equipment and wars, and so on like that.

But the reds knock government for the things that government does to benefit people. The reds say we should be self-reliant and not be dependent on government, which to them means they don't want to pay taxes to help poor people of color. The reds are often business people or rural ranchers and store owners and such who don't want government to tax them and regulate them. They are most concerned about the threat of "socialism" and "communism." And today, their reflexive patriotism translates most readily into opposition to immigration and affirmative action and other expressions of white identity politics. Where some of the reds may agree with the pro-labor blues is in opposition to free trade, although for others tariffs are just more government regulation of business. Today this "freedom from the government" meme and resistance to helping people through taxes and regulations has been translated into resistance to government leadership and action on the coronavirus, as well as opposition to "socialist" health care reform.

Red and blue are leftovers of the two revolutionary movements that shaped our society up through the sixties. The reds reduce democratic liberty and individual rights to liberty expressed in the American Revolution to liberty from paying taxes and freedom for business to do whatever it wants, regardless of its effects on others. The blues are a watered-down version of workers and union movements that is called democratic socialism in more-advanced countries. It's the difference between "we're in this together" and "you're on your own."

The response to the sixties and to the issues of today also shape the reds and blues. The reds resist the social and cultural revolution of hippies, drugs, gun control, questioning religious authority, abortion, women's lib and other social-justice warfare and "political correctness" issues, while blues respond to the need to end needless wars and militarism, to the threat to our environment, and to support for diverse ethnic and racial justice. In other words, the blues are also greens.

[Marypoza]

(10-11-2020, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-10-2020, 07:14 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-09-2020, 09:07 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-08-2020, 10:19 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(09-29-2020, 10:38 AM)David Horn Wrote: Red and Blue may be adversaries, but neither can exist without the other. It's a kind of codependency.  Eliminating the Blue faction would codify a preference for the private over the public, and keep government small and ineffective -- but no one would care all that much.  Those of us in the downscale section of society would laud our betters for how clever and hardworking they are, and the upscale crowd would feel  comfortable knowing that they deserved every dollar and perk they have.  If Red disappeared, something more akin to true socialism might emerge organically, and we would all be one and happy.

-- l'm a socialist so that couldn't come soon enough 4 me

Don't sell everything on the expectation that we're getting there soon, but something like that is inevitable in the long term.  We've been on the way for over 100 years, so it may be longer than either us will be around.

-- l never said l thought we're getting there soon. l said it couldn't come fast enough 4 me. otoh this 4th turning seems 2 stalled. lf it finally gets moving & we come out of it w/healthcare & UBI, that's a start

Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

-- that's bcuz the Dems are offering 3T *solutions* to 4T problems.  Too many Silents in charge. l read an article earlier stating Feinstein is 87 y/o.  Ms Nancy isn't that far behind. They both s/b enjoying their great grandchildren instead of f-ing up the country

[David Horn]

(10-19-2020, 10:30 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 10:08 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

I guess it's just because the center-left is chicken of the Reaganomics appeal. I guess they don't have the guts to listen to Rachel Maddow and get the f*ck over it. Plus, who's got the money?

-- Eric there's plenty of $$. the Govt just needs 2 quit dropping bombs on innocent ppl & bankrolling Israel, where they have universal healthcare, btw

Read Paul Krugman in the NY Times Opinion section. Shock: even Goldman Sachs is in agreement. We need to spend like drunken sailors, and the spending needs to be where its been lacking for so long -- on people and infrastructure. Now, if we can fully reform the tax code at the same time (so these rich bastards don't get all the money), its game-on.

[David Horn]

(10-19-2020, 10:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-10-2020, 11:31 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I was browsing on YouTube yesterday.  At one point, instead of the usual ad, there was this commentary that stated that America is almost two nations now, Red and Blue.

The commentary went on to list contrasting differences between red and blue.  Such as small government and lower taxes in red, versus larger government and higher taxes in blue.

I would say that's a good summary of the red slogan, and the blue point of view as seen from the red side. That was very likely the viewpoint from which the video you saw was made. I may have also seen it.

It's more complicated than that, because the red side is not fully libertarian. It wants the government to do things too, like outlaw abortion and gay marriage, send police to quell non-existent riots and restore "law and order," spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives on unnecessary military equipment and wars, and so on like that.

But the reds knock government for the things that government does to benefit people. The reds say we should be self-reliant and not be dependent on government, which to them means they don't want to pay taxes to help poor people of color. The reds are often business people or rural ranchers and store owners and such who don't want government to tax them and regulate them. They are most concerned about the threat of "socialism" and "communism." And today, their reflexive patriotism translates most readily into opposition to immigration and affirmative action and other expressions of white identity politics. Where some of the reds may agree with the pro-labor blues is in opposition to free trade, although for others tariffs are just more government regulation of business. Today this "freedom from the government" meme and resistance to helping people through taxes and regulations has been translated into resistance to government leadership and action on the coronavirus, as well as opposition to "socialist" health care reform.

Red and blue are leftovers of the two revolutionary movements that shaped our society up through the sixties. The reds reduce democratic liberty and individual rights to liberty expressed in the American Revolution to liberty from paying taxes and freedom for business to do whatever it wants, regardless of its effects on others. The blues are a watered-down version of workers and union movements that is called democratic socialism in more-advanced countries. It's the difference between "we're in this together" and "you're on your own."

The response to the sixties and to the issues of today also shape the reds and blues. The reds resist the social and cultural revolution of hippies, drugs, gun control, questioning religious authority, abortion, women's lib and other social-justice warfare and "political correctness" issues, while blues respond to the need to end needless wars and militarism, to the threat to our environment, and to support for diverse ethnic and racial justice. In other words, the blues are also greens.

Coincidentally, the very-red business community is all-in for business subsidies (they can't tolerated having it called corporate welfare though).  Farmers are the worst, being the least generous ... except for aid to farmers, of course.

It gets exhausting after a while.  Even rational people are so brainwashed after 40+ years of this nonsense that it requires deprograming to get them realigned.

[David Horn]

(10-19-2020, 10:36 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

-- that's bcuz the Dems are offering 3T *solutions* to 4T problems.  Too many Silents in charge. l read an article earlier stating Feinstein is 87 y/o.  Ms Nancy isn't that far behind. They both s/b enjoying their great grandchildren instead of f-ing up the country

Geriatric sclerosis is just one more issue that needs addressing. Both parties have it, but the Dems it far worse.  Someone needs to take these old farts aside and let them know that they were great in their day, but their day is over.  Want a job? 

[beechnut79]

(10-20-2020, 07:25 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 10:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-10-2020, 11:31 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I was browsing on YouTube yesterday.  At one point, instead of the usual ad, there was this commentary that stated that America is almost two nations now, Red and Blue.

The commentary went on to list contrasting differences between red and blue.  Such as small government and lower taxes in red, versus larger government and higher taxes in blue.

I would say that's a good summary of the red slogan, and the blue point of view as seen from the red side. That was very likely the viewpoint from which the video you saw was made. I may have also seen it.

It's more complicated than that, because the red side is not fully libertarian. It wants the government to do things too, like outlaw abortion and gay marriage, send police to quell non-existent riots and restore "law and order," spend billions of dollars and thousands of lives on unnecessary military equipment and wars, and so on like that.

But the reds knock government for the things that government does to benefit people. The reds say we should be self-reliant and not be dependent on government, which to them means they don't want to pay taxes to help poor people of color. The reds are often business people or rural ranchers and store owners and such who don't want government to tax them and regulate them. They are most concerned about the threat of "socialism" and "communism." And today, their reflexive patriotism translates most readily into opposition to immigration and affirmative action and other expressions of white identity politics. Where some of the reds may agree with the pro-labor blues is in opposition to free trade, although for others tariffs are just more government regulation of business. Today this "freedom from the government" meme and resistance to helping people through taxes and regulations has been translated into resistance to government leadership and action on the coronavirus, as well as opposition to "socialist" health care reform.

Red and blue are leftovers of the two revolutionary movements that shaped our society up through the sixties. The reds reduce democratic liberty and individual rights to liberty expressed in the American Revolution to liberty from paying taxes and freedom for business to do whatever it wants, regardless of its effects on others. The blues are a watered-down version of workers and union movements that is called democratic socialism in more-advanced countries. It's the difference between "we're in this together" and "you're on your own."

The response to the sixties and to the issues of today also shape the reds and blues. The reds resist the social and cultural revolution of hippies, drugs, gun control, questioning religious authority, abortion, women's lib and other social-justice warfare and "political correctness" issues, while blues respond to the need to end needless wars and militarism, to the threat to our environment, and to support for diverse ethnic and racial justice. In other words, the blues are also greens.

Coincidentally, the very-red business community is all-in for business subsidies (they can't tolerated having it called corporate welfare though).  Farmers are the worst, being the least generous ... except for aid to farmers, of course.

It gets exhausting after a while.  Even rational people are so brainwashed after 40+ years of this nonsense that it requires deprograming to get them realigned.

Think said stalemating is the political equivalent of the Moonies?

[David Horn]

(10-20-2020, 09:47 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(10-20-2020, 07:25 AM)David Horn Wrote: It gets exhausting after a while.  Even rational people are so brainwashed after 40+ years of this nonsense that it requires deprograming to get them realigned.

Think said stalemating is the political equivalent of the Moonies?

Brainwashing is much the same in all cases: the implantation of a belief structure through deception. The only variables are how far it went and how long to reset it to something less toxic.

[Marypoza]

(10-20-2020, 07:40 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-19-2020, 10:36 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-11-2020, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote: Fixing the healthcare mess should be easy enough, if the filibuster gets canned.  My big concern is the undying belief on the center-left that comity is still there hiding somewhere.  Sorry to say, it seems to be the reason the Dems can't get things moving anymore.  That wasn't so true in my youth.  They lack fire-in-the-belly, and they'd better get some fast.

-- that's bcuz the Dems are offering 3T *solutions* to 4T problems.  Too many Silents in charge. l read an article earlier stating Feinstein is 87 y/o.  Ms Nancy isn't that far behind. They both s/b enjoying their great grandchildren instead of f-ing up the country

Geriatric sclerosis is just one more issue that needs addressing. Both parties have it, but the Dems it far worse.  Someone needs to take these old farts aside and let them know that they were great in their day, but their day is over.  Want a job? 

-- l remember somebody commenting on that on the old forum- that Dem leadership was mainly Artists, while the repugs was in your face Boomers.. & it's still true, the Artist still haven't left the national stage, drawing out the 4T & hamstringing the generations behind them. But this 4T will eventually muddle thru in2 a 1T & l still maintain the Millies, already the country's largest voting bloc will get more consistent in their voting & throw out all the oldtimers & get this country moving again

[David Horn]

(10-21-2020, 10:04 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-20-2020, 07:40 AM)David Horn Wrote: Geriatric sclerosis is just one more issue that needs addressing. Both parties have it, but the Dems have it far worse.  Someone needs to take these old farts aside and let them know that they were great in their day, but their day is over.  Want a job? 

-- l remember somebody commenting on that on the old forum- that Dem leadership was mainly Artists, while the repugs was in your face Boomers.. & it's still true, the Artist still haven't left the national stage, drawing out the 4T & hamstringing the generations behind them. But this 4T will eventually muddle thru in2 a 1T & l still maintain the Millies, already the country's largest voting bloc will get more consistent in their voting & throw out all the oldtimers & get this country moving again

I was first to argue for an essentially failed 4T for that very reason.  The Silents wanted their day on the stage, and now they have it.  What will they do with it?  Not much, I fear.  Joe Biden is already talking about "working across the aisle", and the less dynamic Dems are sounding more like Republicans of yore than Democrats, then or now.

If this collapses again, then the 4Twill devolve into a permanent muddle, with no one able or even willing to do shit.  The 1T won't fix anything either ... then the 2T.  I'm sad I'll miss it.

[Marypoza]

(10-22-2020, 08:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-21-2020, 10:04 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-20-2020, 07:40 AM)David Horn Wrote: Geriatric sclerosis is just one more issue that needs addressing. Both parties have it, but the Dems have it far worse.  Someone needs to take these old farts aside and let them know that they were great in their day, but their day is over.  Want a job? 

-- l remember somebody commenting on that on the old forum- that Dem leadership was mainly Artists, while the repugs was in your face Boomers.. & it's still true, the Artist still haven't left the national stage, drawing out the 4T & hamstringing the generations behind them. But this 4T will eventually muddle thru in2 a 1T & l still maintain the Millies, already the country's largest voting bloc will get more consistent in their voting & throw out all the oldtimers & get this country moving again

I was first to argue for an essentially failed 4T for that very reason.  The Silents wanted their day on the stage, and now they have it.  What will they do with it?  Not much, I fear.  Joe Biden is already talking about "working across the aisle", and the less dynamic Dems are sounding more like Republicans of yore than Democrats, then or now.

If this collapses again, then the 4Twill devolve into a permanent muddle, with no one able or even willing to do shit.  The 1T won't fix anything either ... then the 2T.  I'm sad I'll miss it.

-- take good care of yourself, take your vitamins, don't eat junk foods, get your annual check ups & maybe you will live 2 see it. Modern medicene is awesome these daze.   hopefully l'll live 2 see it. It's gonna leave the Boom Awakening in the dust. l'm a mid 50's Boomer so when the next Awakening hits l s/b in my late 80s early 90s . l'm taking care of myself, but hopefully l got the genes- my Dad's blood Aunt was a Missionary who lived thru the Boom Awakening, his Mom, my Gramma lived 2b 94. My own Mom's blood Aunt was a Lost whose life spanned 3 centuries & 2 millenia: she was born in the 19th century, lived thru the 20th, & finally passed shortly after the 21st century began. So l'm hoping l inherited all that

[David Horn]

(10-22-2020, 10:08 PM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-22-2020, 08:19 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-21-2020, 10:04 AM)Marypoza Wrote:

(10-20-2020, 07:40 AM)David Horn Wrote: Geriatric sclerosis is just one more issue that needs addressing. Both parties have it, but the Dems have it far worse.  Someone needs to take these old farts aside and let them know that they were great in their day, but their day is over.  Want a job? 

-- l remember somebody commenting on that on the old forum- that Dem leadership was mainly Artists, while the repugs was in your face Boomers.. & it's still true, the Artist still haven't left the national stage, drawing out the 4T & hamstringing the generations behind them. But this 4T will eventually muddle thru in2 a 1T & l still maintain the Millies, already the country's largest voting bloc will get more consistent in their voting & throw out all the oldtimers & get this country moving again

I was first to argue for an essentially failed 4T for that very reason.  The Silents wanted their day on the stage, and now they have it.  What will they do with it?  Not much, I fear.  Joe Biden is already talking about "working across the aisle", and the less dynamic Dems are sounding more like Republicans of yore than Democrats, then or now.

If this collapses again, then the 4Twill devolve into a permanent muddle, with no one able or even willing to do shit.  The 1T won't fix anything either ... then the 2T.  I'm sad I'll miss it.

-- take good care of yourself, take your vitamins, don't eat junk foods, get your annual check ups & maybe you will live 2 see it. Modern medicene is awesome these daze.   hopefully l'll live 2 see it. It's gonna leave the Boom Awakening in the dust. l'm a mid 50's Boomer so when the next Awakening hits l s/b in my late 80s early 90s . l'm taking care of myself, but hopefully l got the genes- my Dad's blood Aunt was a Missionary who lived thru the Boom Awakening, his Mom, my Gramma lived 2b 94. My own Mom's blood Aunt was a Lost whose life spanned 3 centuries & 2 millenia: she was born in the 19th century, lived thru the 20th, & finally passed shortly after the 21st century began. So l'm hoping l inherited all that

I’m a ‘47 Boomer so the stretch is longer for me — and I’m male.  Odds are bad but not zero. I plan to run hard to the end, whatever that turns out to be.

[Eric the Green]

(10-19-2020, 12:12 PM)sbarrera Wrote: Paul Zimmy Finn describes the two zones, if not the two constellations. The Johnson vision versus the Reagan vision.

The Haight book was discussed in these forums long ago. The commentator in this video reveals his right-wing bias by attributing the first three values only to the Left, while declaring that the Right respects all six. In fact, the right-wing only respects the bottom three values.

Also, he identifies the right-wing with respect for "tradition." That is a vague term, as was his description of the Durkheim vision. What it really points to is Classic Xer. The vision of the right is obedience to authority, regardless of merit. The right appeals to this, because it is sick and depraved and has no respect for rationality or truth. It expects us to believe in these "traditions" because they are traditions, and is bothered because they are not held in sanctity. The right-wing thinks that unless certain beliefs are held by the people without question, without offending sensibilities of those who hold them, society breaks down. The narrator reveals his stand at the end, finally, by saying "God Bless America." In other words, he expects that we should all believe in God, likely as interpreted by right-wing fundamentalists, and our country, as an authority which should not be questioned, as if we lived in a kingdom or empire and not a democracy.

In fact, the Left believes in tradition, the tradition of what America is and was founded to be. A republic based on democracy and certain inalienable rights. This, the right wing does not respect.

But the narrator appears to be correct that the left-right divide is not being healed. He forgets that the civil war anomaly which Strauss and Howe described is false. Right now, we are in a re-run of the 1850s, not the 1860s. That is why a "regeneracy" has not happened. The break-up may well be about to start in the coming decade, perhaps half-way through as I have predicted. It appears more certain than ever now, with a government that the voters and their right-wing authorities have constructed to block all progress in dealing with the decay that The Fourth Turning describes during a crisis. Our government is now unable to act on these concerns at all. The vote for Trump in red states was 10 to 30% higher than predicted by the polls, and lays out a clear contiguous heartland red territory. The vote for Biden in blue states was enough to give him a 4 or 5 million popular vote margin from states largely confined to edges of the country. So where does that lead us if not toward even more disaster, frustration, decline, or break-up?

[Warren Dew]

(11-07-2020, 09:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: He forgets that the civil war anomaly which Strauss and Howe described is false.

Eric, can you clarify what you mean by this?  You believe that the Civil War was part of a normal four generation cycle?  I wouldn't disagree; I'm just trying to get clarification on your position here.

[Eric the Green]

(11-07-2020, 04:27 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(11-07-2020, 09:48 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: He forgets that the civil war anomaly which Strauss and Howe described is false.

Eric, can you clarify what you mean by this?  You believe that the Civil War was part of a normal four generation cycle?  I wouldn't disagree; I'm just trying to get clarification on your position here.

Yes, I and others here have explored this idea. It is evident to me that we are in a decade like the 1850s, and the worst of the cold civil war of our time is yet to come in the 2020s. Some like former poster Chas Donald redid the civil war saeculum with revised dates for 4 turnings and generations and started the 1T in the early 1780s. I tend to think there are 4 turnings, but 3 hybrid generations. Both schemes also fit somewhat better with the planetary cycles.

So I moved the civil war 4T back to at least 1850, when the turmoil leading directly to the civil war got going. The 3T extends back to 1834, because anti-slavery activism was tamped down at about that time, which had sprung up during the 2T from about 1815 until 1834. This scheme also jells with the European seaculum, and I think the two are pretty closely related. It's a western civ. cycle.