Is President Biden too old and dated, or is he the gray champion

[pbrower2a]

(09-05-2022, 03:52 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 09:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We may not "need" them to go along. If they want to continue to rebel, then they will continue to be put down if they do it violently, and I hope defeated at the polls if they don't. But admittedly, as I have said, conservatives can make a comeback in 1Ts, we all know that. I suspect a moderate Republican, at least, may have a chance to win in 2032 or 2036, especially if this person is Spencer Cox or even Ivanka Trump.

Donald Trump deceived people to think he was interested in poor liberals who needed manufacturing jobs. They were no longer liberals if they voted for Trump, because Trump was just making promises of outcomes; what he proposed about how to accomplish this was just more Republican neoliberalism.

My comment on Trump was not about his effectiveness (although he did bring a considerable of manufacturing jobs back with him), but that he saw the strategic need to appeal people from across the isle.

Quote:Democrats will need the votes of moderates, though. We'll need enough of them to realize that democracy is better than the tyranny and corruption that Trump offers, and that Biden stands up against-- and for reform to strengthen democracy, as he explained in one of his speeches here. He also mentioned in this speech how not a single Republican supported him in this. Republicans today may be conservatives, but they are not moderates. None of them are; none of them in congress at least, and not in many other places today. They are merely different degrees of conservative, and mostly extreme right.

If you want someone to "stand against tyranny", a lifelong establishment shill is not your guy.

He is obviously not as much a lifelong shill as his dreadful predecessor. As a pattern, it's the Establishment types who accomplish lasting change because they know how to cut the deals. A would-be tyrant like Donald Trump gives my-way-or-the-highway speeches, and in this country he fails to get the necessary respect. At some point the good politicians in democratic societies have learned that they must give something to get something. Basically, your pet highway project in Michigan comes with similar projects in other states, or your road is simply a line on the map.  

Note well that people are living much longer than they used to, in part because 

1. People are not smoking as much as they used to, smoking-related diseases taking out  huge parts of the life expectancy of millions of people until rather recently. That partially explains the much-longer stay of the GI and Silent in public life than that of the Lost. Just think of Humphrey Bogart (1899-1957), for whom smoking  and raspy (smoking-created) were signatures of his character and persona in his movies; he died at age 57 of lung cancer, presumably from smoking.  Cancerweed has become less of a part of the lives of Americans rather steadily since the 1960's. Today, actors need not smoke and we do not miss that.

2. People are drinking less. Crackdowns on DUI have scared people out of having "one for the road" as once a common expression and now rare. We still have no shortage of alcoholics, but even those are drinking less, and getting a longer life expectancy from lesser levels of alcohol-related diseases. We are also having far fewer fatalities from vehicle crashes, also statistically lengthening lives. 

3. Beginning with the GI Generation, older people have remained intellectually and physically active, and connected with others longer.  This is essential to preventing depression and keeping people motivated to do things that give them cause to stay alive. 

Now one thing personal. People can remain active and involved into their eighties as never before. A pattern that has begun with the GI Generation  has entrenched itself, resulting in far more people living into their eighties. People are not simply going into the nursing home in their sixties and floundering along in poor health into their sixties; people generally don't last long in nursing homes. The Lost used to be incarcerated in such places early when (very often) they could not cope with the rapid changes in American life.  

Joe Biden looks the part to stick around into his eighties. Just take a good look at him. He seems to have never been obese. Obesity is another life-shortening bad habit. 

Statistically, good habits are typically the difference in life expectancy of differing groups of people. Just contrast Joe Biden to Donald Trump, and it is Donald Trump who seems more likely to die soon. Obesity, little physical activity other than cheating in his golf game in which he gets around by a golf cart, having been exposed to just about every STD possible due to his life of whoring, having a dreadful diet, being under legal scrutiny, and having a life practically immune to any intellectual 'corruption', he looks like someone who would be put away in a nursing home if he didn't have 24-7 household care... or death warmed-over. Donald Trump is a prime candidate for a stroke or heart attack.  

Joe Biden is Establishment, and Trump is the definitive Outsider in political life. Joe Biden appeals to people who think that the government can do some good, and Trump appeals to people who trust in little. (Indeed, like a typical con man, Trump caters his pitch to people who distrust formal learning, mainstream politics, and even normal business. He makes it more personal, more of flattery than anything else, only to make the fleece. As in business, so in politics, and he has been more successful in the business of political demagoguery than someone like Barack Obama, who is a model of how to be President. 

In my experience, the more effective solutions in politics come from Establishment types and not from demagogues. President Biden is doing at age 79 what many politicians have done in their 50's. How long can he get away with that? Ask Eric, who does elaborate horoscopes if you want some answer. I'm not sure that his horoscopes predict death or debility. If he did and those were reliable he would be in the employ of insurance companies in their underwriting divisions or some well-paid contractor.

[Eric the Green]

(09-05-2022, 03:52 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 09:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We may not "need" them to go along. If they want to continue to rebel, then they will continue to be put down if they do it violently, and I hope defeated at the polls if they don't. But admittedly, as I have said, conservatives can make a comeback in 1Ts, we all know that. I suspect a moderate Republican, at least, may have a chance to win in 2032 or 2036, especially if this person is Spencer Cox or even Ivanka Trump.

Donald Trump deceived people to think he was interested in poor liberals who needed manufacturing jobs. They were no longer liberals if they voted for Trump, because Trump was just making promises of outcomes; what he proposed about how to accomplish this was just more Republican neoliberalism.

My comment on Trump was not about his effectiveness (although he did bring a considerable of manufacturing jobs back with him), but that he saw the strategic need to appeal people from across the isle.

I didn't notice he brought back any jobs. He promised his neoliberal tax cuts would mean jobs, jobs, jobs. He was wrong; the neoliberal program takes jobs away.

His "appeal across the aisle" was nothing more than his ability as a demagogue to promise simple answers and hero worship. In office he did not veto too many bills, but then his congress saw to it that almost nothing was offered for him to veto, or sign for that matter. Being incapable of governing, only of entertaining and deceiving a crowd with lies and bluster, he accomplished next to nothing.

Quote:

Quote:Democrats will need the votes of moderates, though. We'll need enough of them to realize that democracy is better than the tyranny and corruption that Trump offers, and that Biden stands up against-- and for reform to strengthen democracy, as he explained in one of his speeches here. He also mentioned in this speech how not a single Republican supported him in this. Republicans today may be conservatives, but they are not moderates. None of them are; none of them in congress at least, and not in many other places today. They are merely different degrees of conservative, and mostly extreme right.

If you want someone to "stand against tyranny", a lifelong establishment shill is not your guy.

I think rather it is exactly the guy. Biden is a dedicated and capable politician who has a long record of accomplishment. That may not appeal to those who think rebellion consists of not accomplishing anything. For that, Trump is your guy.

His appeal in these speeches is to move us forward, even in spite of the Establishment's resistance. He is saying we CAN accomplish things. Accomplishing things in government is always to challenge the Establishment, because the Establishment wants no change, and no challenge to their ability to fleece the people with low wages, destructive policies and oppression of the working and middle class, and allowing or fostering the growing wealth of the elites to the obscene levels they have reached today. That what Trump offered and delivered to the nation; more of the same of this pampering of elites.

Biden offers instead programs to help the people achieve a prosperous life of some "consequence", despite the efforts of the wealthy economic-libertarian elite to hog all the benefits and opportunities of the last 40 years of Reaganomics, whose success at the ballot box for 40 years had been enhanced by ceaseless appeals to prejudice.

I'm glad we now have our true, truly-gray gray champion!

[David Horn]

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

If scaring the bejesus out of people doesn't work forever and causes more problems than it cures then maybe you guys should stop doing it as much as you guys have been doing it. Like I said, I know all of you guys pretty well and you've got a pretty good idea about me and how nasty it would be to seriously tangle with me or anyone like me in real life. You want to know what that senile dumb fucker that you and everyone like you elected did, he moved us one step closer to millions of Americans having the right to kill your dumb asses and essentially destroying/removing your guys primary means of survival these days. Ever wondered what you would do if/when big blue government financially imploded like the Soviet Union, would you be able to survive without it at this point? Scary huh, best you ignore and continue to go along with all the stupid shit *fascist looking shit, communist looking shit, quasi socialist shit" associated with today's left and the Democratic party of today. I'll see you again next month and see if any of you have wised up/ pulled your head out or your butt yet.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-05-2022, 08:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-05-2022, 03:52 PM)JasonBlack Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 09:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We may not "need" them to go along. If they want to continue to rebel, then they will continue to be put down if they do it violently, and I hope defeated at the polls if they don't. But admittedly, as I have said, conservatives can make a comeback in 1Ts, we all know that. I suspect a moderate Republican, at least, may have a chance to win in 2032 or 2036, especially if this person is Spencer Cox or even Ivanka Trump.

Donald Trump deceived people to think he was interested in poor liberals who needed manufacturing jobs. They were no longer liberals if they voted for Trump, because Trump was just making promises of outcomes; what he proposed about how to accomplish this was just more Republican neoliberalism.

My comment on Trump was not about his effectiveness (although he did bring a considerable of manufacturing jobs back with him), but that he saw the strategic need to appeal people from across the isle.

I didn't notice he brought back any jobs. He promised his neoliberal tax cuts would mean jobs, jobs, jobs. He was wrong; the neoliberal program takes jobs away.

His "appeal across the aisle" was nothing more than his ability as a demagogue to promise simple answers and hero worship. In office he did not veto too many bills, but then his congress saw to it that almost nothing was offered for him to veto, or sign for that matter. Being incapable of governing, only of entertaining and deceiving a crowd with lies and bluster, he accomplished next to nothing.

Quote:

Quote:Democrats will need the votes of moderates, though. We'll need enough of them to realize that democracy is better than the tyranny and corruption that Trump offers, and that Biden stands up against-- and for reform to strengthen democracy, as he explained in one of his speeches here. He also mentioned in this speech how not a single Republican supported him in this. Republicans today may be conservatives, but they are not moderates. None of them are; none of them in congress at least, and not in many other places today. They are merely different degrees of conservative, and mostly extreme right.

If you want someone to "stand against tyranny", a lifelong establishment shill is not your guy.

I think rather it is exactly the guy. Biden is a dedicated and capable politician who has a long record of accomplishment. That may not appeal to those who think rebellion consists of not accomplishing anything. For that, Trump is your guy.

His appeal in these speeches is to move us forward, even in spite of the Establishment's resistance. He is saying we CAN accomplish things. Accomplishing things in government is always to challenge the Establishment, because the Establishment wants no change, and no challenge to their ability to fleece the people with low wages, destructive policies and oppression of the working and middle class, and allowing or fostering the growing wealth of the elites to the obscene levels they have reached today. That what Trump offered and delivered to the nation; more of the same of this pampering of elites.

Biden offers instead programs to help the people achieve a prosperous life of some "consequence", despite the efforts of the wealthy economic-libertarian elite to hog all the benefits and opportunities of the last 40 years of Reaganomics, whose success at the ballot box for 40 years had been enhanced by ceaseless appeals to prejudice.

I'm glad we now have our true, truly-gray gray champion!

Your so-called gray champion isn't even going to make it through his first term.

[Eric the Green]

(09-07-2022, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

If scaring the bejesus out of people doesn't work forever and causes more problems than it cures then maybe you guys should stop doing it as much as you guys have been doing it. Like I said, I know all of you guys pretty well and you've got a pretty good idea about me and how nasty it would be to seriously tangle with me or anyone like me in real life. You want to know what that senile dumb fucker that you and everyone like you elected did, he moved us one step closer to millions of Americans having the right to kill your dumb asses and essentially destroying/removing your guys' primary means of survival these days. Ever wondered what you would do if/when big blue government financially imploded like the Soviet Union, would you be able to survive without it at this point? Scary huh, best you ignore and continue to go along with all the stupid shit *fascist looking shit, communist looking shit, quasi socialist shit" associated with today's left and  the Democratic party of today. I'll see you again next month and see if any of you have wised up/ pulled your head out of your butt yet.

Again, don't bother.

[Eric the Green]

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

Putting neoliberal Thatcherite Liz Truss in power is a real bad move for the UK. I have my doubts that Scotland and Northern Ireland will stay within this "united" kingdom if she gets her way on policy. I wonder if the the citizens will tolerate policies that only make everything they are suffering much worse. I wonder if the people of England will continue to be deceived by the neoliberal trickle-down economics after 42 years of it. I hope the Labor leader is up to challenging her with an opposition line, but I have my doubts. It's interesting that the USA and perhaps Brazil and others may have recovered from this 40-year detour into delusion even before the UK does, when the UK has been at least a bit more advanced than the USA thanks to its breakthrough policies before Thatcher. 

Perhaps Classic Xer would be more happy in England now? Go back there, Classic. We don't miss you here!

If Thatcher was the Iron Lady, I wonder what Truss will be? Certainly Truss is not trustworthy. The Oil Lady? Maybe that's it. She will certainly leave a horrible stain and leave a horrific stench. At least Johnson gave lip service to climate action. Truss' record is very oily instead.

[David Horn]

(09-07-2022, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

If scaring the bejesus out of people doesn't work forever and causes more problems than it cures then maybe you guys should stop doing it as much as you guys have been doing it.

Your attempt at humor missed the mark.  Try agaiin.

C-Xer Wrote:Like I said, I know all of you guys pretty well and you've got a pretty good idea about me and how nasty it would be to seriously tangle with me or anyone like me in real life. You want to know what that senile dumb fucker that you and everyone like you elected did, he moved us one step closer to millions of Americans having the right to kill your dumb asses and essentially destroying/removing your guys  primary means of survival these days. Ever wondered what you would do if/when big blue government financially imploded like the Soviet Union, would you be able to survive without it at this point? Scary huh, best you ignore and continue to go along with all the stupid shit *fascist looking shit, communist looking shit, quasi socialist shit" associated with today's left and  the Democratic party of today. I'll see you again next month and see if any of you have wised up/ pulled your head out or your butt yet.

From humor to delusion: a short trip!

[pbrower2a]

(09-07-2022, 11:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-05-2022, 08:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (snip)

I think rather (Biden) is exactly the guy. Biden is a dedicated and capable politician who has a long record of accomplishment. That may not appeal to those who think rebellion consists of not accomplishing anything. For that, Trump is your guy.

His appeal in these speeches is to move us forward, even in spite of the Establishment's resistance. He is saying we CAN accomplish things. Accomplishing things in government is always to challenge the Establishment, because the Establishment wants no change, and no challenge to their ability to fleece the people with low wages, destructive policies and oppression of the working and middle class, and allowing or fostering the growing wealth of the elites to the obscene levels they have reached today. That what Trump offered and delivered to the nation; more of the same of this pampering of elites.

Biden offers instead programs to help the people achieve a prosperous life of some "consequence", despite the efforts of the wealthy economic-libertarian elite to hog all the benefits and opportunities of the last 40 years of Reaganomics, whose success at the ballot box for 40 years had been enhanced by ceaseless appeals to prejudice.

I'm glad we now have our true, truly-gray gray champion!

Your so-called gray champion isn't even going to make it through his first term.

If he doesn't, then we will have Democrats scrambling for that role. Kamala Harris is the obvious successor.

I expect President Biden to be around at the time of Donald Trump's demise. In view of Trump's bad habits, I am surprised that he is still alive. Should he end up with a long prison term that is the usual consequence of stealing and abusing classified information, then his life or death will mean little because he would die in prison. Trump deserves the effective death that the likes of Aldrich Ames and Andrew Hanssen now endure. 

But just as much worth considering: the Skowronek cycle explains clearly why Donald Trump is such a political dud. The political memes that compel so much political change at first (Reagan policies) wear thin over about forty years. The law of diminishing returns applies as much to ideas as to material objects. Reagan's crony-capitalist plutocracy may have been successful in stopping inflation by ensuring that millions of people made contributions to productivity and service while being paid so little that they got priced out of almost anything not a bare necessity, but at some point that becomes terribly ineffective. Trump pushed far harder than Reagan in support of a reactionary agenda that has achieved practically nothing. Pushing harder and getting weak or questionable results is failure, whether political, economic, or cultural. 

The Skowronek cycle explains why Jimmy Carter was so ineffective; he sought to revive the New Deal after it had played out. Carter was a good man, a smart man with none of the vices.   

This ignores the manifold deficiencies of Donald Trump as a person. We had a President who in many ways shows how to be President, and that is Obama. Obama is an arch-conservative in many ways -- all but his economic agenda. A conservative, pro-business version of Barack Obama is exactly what will be how an effective President from the conservative side will be like. It will not be the vindictive, corrupt, hollow, demagogue that is the disaster that we know as Donald Trump.

We are approaching the end of the 4T and approaching the dawn of a 1T. In a 1T, politics becomes a matter of ensuring that everybody gets something and that everyone makes a contribution.

[pbrower2a]

(09-07-2022, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

If scaring the bejesus out of people doesn't work forever and causes more problems than it cures then maybe you guys should stop doing it as much as you guys have been doing it. Like I said, I know all of you guys pretty well and you've got a pretty good idea about me and how nasty it would be to seriously tangle with me or anyone like me in real life. You want to know what that senile dumb (profanity excised) that you and everyone like you elected did, he moved us one step closer to millions of Americans having the right to kill your dumb asses and essentially destroying/removing your guys  primary means of survival these days. Ever wondered what you would do if/when big blue government financially imploded like the Soviet Union, would you be able to survive without it at this point? Scary huh, best you ignore and continue to go along with all the stupid shit *fascist looking shit, communist looking shit, quasi socialist shit" associated with today's left and  the Democratic party of today. I'll see you again next month and see if any of you have wised up/ pulled your head out or your butt yet.

Sure... have faith in someone who believes in nothing but his own selfish interests and who cannot restrain his self-indulgence, someone full of anger without having been oppressed, someone whose intellectual hollowness makes him a joke... that's Trump for you. In different styles that is other tyrants and despots. It's scary that he could admire Vladimir Putin but not recognize Angela Merkel for what she is. Let's put it this way -- if America had a thoroughly amoral leadership, then the worst sort of leader that the vile elite could face in a great war would be someone like Angela Merkel. 

Faith in something foolish is no virtue. Cult leaders, demagogues, and con-artists elicit such faith. I can live without such faith. Doubt can be a position of intellectual integrity. 

By the way -- you need to take an anger-management class before you do something that puts you in the morgue or prison. I've known of people who speak like you about armed uprisings against the Establishment, Left and Right. They get pushed to the fringe of public life only to act up violently only to get blown away or put away. 

If any part of the American polity is to implode it will be the Hard Right. We on the center-Left are adopting more conservative style. We recognize the validity of tradition as a fallback when the avant-garde fails; we believe in sobriety and rationality; we value skill, formal learning, and imagination; we believe in law and order, the rule of law, precedent and protocol; we believe in sexual modesty and decency (gay is OK, but it's just not my way -- but even without the ruling on abortion whose sticking power I doubt, we are becoming much more repressive about spouse abuse, rape, child sexual abuse, and kiddie porn); we believe in fair pay for a job well done in the hierarchy of competence that people can latch onto if they have talent; we believe in individual integrity and in moral restraint; we see free enterprise the default. Where we differ from recent conservatives is that we recognize the validity and appropriateness of traditions not our own for people who somehow differ from ourselves, and we are free from the self-fulfilling despair of pessimism about human nature. Your Right has descended into unreason, violence, and bigotry; it has succumbed to a Cult of Personality. If it could fall for Trump then it could fall for someone else with a similar confidence game. 

The Hard Left associated with Marxism-Leninism and Trotskyism is largely irrelevant. On the other hand it is now difficult to distinguish the current mainstream of the Republican Party from the John Birch Society. The John Birch Society has not changed; it is as crazy as it was sixty years ago. 

Your side plotted to kidnap and lynch the Governor of Michigan. Then it tried to thwart the accession of Joe Biden as President with a takeover of the Capitol Building. Your side included someone who disgraced a Marine Corps banner by using the flagpole bearing it as a weapon against the Capitol Police.   I am not a current or former Marine, but I can assure you that the Marine Corps did not like that imaginative but disgusting use of one of its banners. Your side cannot tolerate dissent.

Now you tell me -- does the Center Left or the Hard Right better fit  a tradition of Constitutional norms and a heritage of benign government?

Death to fascism, including Nazism, Ba'athism, ISIS/Daesh, and Ku Kluxism! 

[sbarrera]

I think that Biden's generational archetype clearly shows - he is an Artist, Silent gen, he's a basically nice guy who just wants a fair world for everyone, and yeah, too old to be the Grey Champion. I believe that he is sincere in his statements and don't understand how he gets portrayed in such a negative light by his opponents. It's laughable that the right tries to portray him as a tyrant (same as they did for Obama, who was a reserved, cautious technocrat suited for the 1T.) But I also think it's amusing that the Internet has basically tried to transform Biden's archetype with the "Dark Brandon" meme. It's like the demand was there so the Internet just digitally mastered a Grey Champion out of available materials.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Well, the Silent generation can now claim that they have had one of their own in the White House.

Biden is a very late Silent, now even the youngest Silents are almost too old.

[David Horn]

(09-08-2022, 06:09 PM)sbarrera Wrote: I think that Biden's generational archetype clearly shows - he is an Artist, Silent gen, he's a basically nice guy who just wants a fair world for everyone, and yeah, too old to be the Grey Champion. I believe that he is sincere in his statements and don't understand how he gets portrayed in such a negative light by his opponents. It's laughable that the right tries to portray him as a tyrant (same as they did for Obama, who was a reserved, cautious technocrat suited for the 1T.) But I also think it's amusing that the Internet has basically tried to transform Biden's archetype with the "Dark Brandon" meme. It's like the demand was there so the Internet just digitally mastered a Grey Champion out of available materials.

I certainoly agreee that Biden is an Artist, and the media are trying to make him a vanguard leader (on the Left) or a tyrrant (on the Right).  That said, he will be in his 80s running for reelection -- assuming he decides to go for it.  If he's as unassuming as he seems to be, he may rest on his laurels as soon as the midterms are past, bow out a winner and work to elect his replacement.  Maybe ...

[Eric the Green]

(09-08-2022, 06:09 PM)sbarrera Wrote: I think that Biden's generational archetype clearly shows - he is an Artist, Silent gen, he's a basically nice guy who just wants a fair world for everyone, and yeah, too old to be the Grey Champion. I believe that he is sincere in his statements and don't understand how he gets portrayed in such a negative light by his opponents. It's laughable that the right tries to portray him as a tyrant (same as they did for Obama, who was a reserved, cautious technocrat suited for the 1T.) But I also think it's amusing that the Internet has basically tried to transform Biden's archetype with the "Dark Brandon" meme. It's like the demand was there so the Internet just digitally mastered a Grey Champion out of available materials.

How can a gray guy be too old to be a gray champion?  

Ben Franklin did it; Joe Biden can do it.

"We are at an inflection point" he says. He knows it.

I like the cusp idea better than supposing the calendar can provide exact cut-off dates. Biden is a Silent-Boomer cusper and has traits of both. He was elected to the Senate in 1972 as a spokesman for what was then (and in my mind and heart will forever remain) "the younger generation," the Boomers. It was the McGovern movement that enabled him to prevail in his senate race.

[Eric the Green]

(09-08-2022, 02:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-07-2022, 11:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-05-2022, 08:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (snip)

I think rather (Biden) is exactly the guy. Biden is a dedicated and capable politician who has a long record of accomplishment. That may not appeal to those who think rebellion consists of not accomplishing anything. For that, Trump is your guy.

His appeal in these speeches is to move us forward, even in spite of the Establishment's resistance. He is saying we CAN accomplish things. Accomplishing things in government is always to challenge the Establishment, because the Establishment wants no change, and no challenge to their ability to fleece the people with low wages, destructive policies and oppression of the working and middle class, and allowing or fostering the growing wealth of the elites to the obscene levels they have reached today. That what Trump offered and delivered to the nation; more of the same of this pampering of elites.

Biden offers instead programs to help the people achieve a prosperous life of some "consequence", despite the efforts of the wealthy economic-libertarian elite to hog all the benefits and opportunities of the last 40 years of Reaganomics, whose success at the ballot box for 40 years had been enhanced by ceaseless appeals to prejudice.

I'm glad we now have our true, truly-gray gray champion!

Your so-called gray champion isn't even going to make it through his first term.

If he doesn't, then we will have Democrats scrambling for that role. Kamala Harris is the obvious successor.

Sorry, no, Kamala Harris cannot fulfill the role.

Biden will run in 2024, so Democrats will be getting out of his way, not scrambling to succeed him. There are no skilled or competent candidates AS candidates to succeed him on the scene now. But by 2028, there may be.

I think the people sense what the astrology confirms. If Harris is nominated in 2024 (or anytime later), the Democrats will lose the White House. Bank on it! At such a time as this, that would be an unparalled disaster!

Quote:I expect President Biden to be around at the time of Donald Trump's demise. In view of Trump's bad habits, I am surprised that he is still alive. Should he end up with a long prison term that is the usual consequence of stealing and abusing classified information, then his life or death will mean little because he would die in prison. Trump deserves the effective death that the likes of Aldrich Ames and Andrew Hanssen now endure. 

We can hope. He certainly belongs in jail, but people defer to him because of the violent threats of his followers, today's "brown shirts." Trump is a fascist, but even the Italians eventually turned on their fascist (of whom Trump may be the reincarnation; certainly following his example).

Quote:But just as much worth considering: the Skowronek cycle explains clearly why Donald Trump is such a political dud. The political memes that compel so much political change at first (Reagan policies) wear thin over about forty years. The law of diminishing returns applies as much to ideas as to material objects. Reagan's crony-capitalist plutocracy may have been successful in stopping inflation by ensuring that millions of people made contributions to productivity and service while being paid so little that they got priced out of almost anything not a bare necessity, but at some point that becomes terribly ineffective. Trump pushed far harder than Reagan in support of a reactionary agenda that has achieved practically nothing. Pushing harder and getting weak or questionable results is failure, whether political, economic, or cultural. 

The Skowronek cycle explains why Jimmy Carter was so ineffective; he sought to revive the New Deal after it had played out. Carter was a good man, a smart man with none of the vices.   

Agreed.

Quote:This ignores the manifold deficiencies of Donald Trump as a person. We had a President who in many ways shows how to be President, and that is Obama. Obama is an arch-conservative in many ways -- all but his economic agenda. A conservative, pro-business version of Barack Obama is exactly what will be how an effective President from the conservative side will be like. It will not be the vindictive, corrupt, hollow, demagogue that is the disaster that we know as Donald Trump.

We are approaching the end of the 4T and approaching the dawn of a 1T. In a 1T, politics becomes a matter of ensuring that everybody gets something and that everyone makes a contribution.

Yes, by 2030 we should be in the 1T. A moderate Republican like Spencer Cox could be elected sometime during the 1T, perhaps even as late as 2040. A Democrat could still win in 2028 though. It depends on who runs, and what their candidate skills are as candidates. Also, the two-party system is teetering. If the 4T gets more wild than we expect right now, the political party system may look very different by the time the 1T rolls around. I would think if the Republicans continue on their current course, they won't outlast the 4T. If things get even wilder, even the United States as it currently exists could split up, or become a fast-declining autocracy.

Our country is complacent and insecure, so the odds are against such a wild 4T. But the right-wing, even 40% of the people, have already gone off the deep end, and will require a wilder left-wing to meet and defeat it, AND to handle and transform what the right-wing has created since 1981. So, we'll see. The times they are a-changing, and the battle is being joined; the curse has been cast. The battle outside ragin' will soon shake our windows and rattle our walls (and already did, senators, congressmen!). And the weather outside is ragin' too. The waters around us have grown.

[Eric the Green]

Biden victory speech November 2020. He has been speaking even better since this one. "This is a time to heal" "the great battles of our time" "We stand at an inflection point." "Spread the faith"

https://youtu.be/DDFO7lo7u5o?t=2715

[pbrower2a]

(09-09-2022, 01:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-08-2022, 06:09 PM)sbarrera Wrote: I think that Biden's generational archetype clearly shows - he is an Artist, Silent gen, he's a basically nice guy who just wants a fair world for everyone, and yeah, too old to be the Grey Champion. I believe that he is sincere in his statements and don't understand how he gets portrayed in such a negative light by his opponents. It's laughable that the right tries to portray him as a tyrant (same as they did for Obama, who was a reserved, cautious technocrat suited for the 1T.) But I also think it's amusing that the Internet has basically tried to transform Biden's archetype with the "Dark Brandon" meme. It's like the demand was there so the Internet just digitally mastered a Grey Champion out of available materials.

How can a gray guy be too old to be a gray champion?  

Ben Franklin did it; Joe Biden can do it.

"We are at an inflection point" he says. He knows it.

I like the cusp idea better than supposing the calendar can provide exact cut-off dates. Biden is a Silent-Boomer cusper and has traits of both. He was elected to the Senate in 1972 as a spokesman for what was then (and in my mind and heart will forever remain) "the younger generation," the Boomers. It was the McGovern movement that enabled him to prevail in his senate race.

People are living longer and staying intellectually and physically active. Joe Biden shows all sixty of nearly eighty years. 

Let's think of the late Queen Elizabeth II. She had appointments on her calendar and was 96. That kept her going. 

Elizabeth II was one of the most secretive persons to have ever lived -- more secretive than the tyrant who announces his choices by murdering a dissident, rival, or opponent. She didn't rule that way, and that is one way to keep secrets. Any notes that she has kept in a diary or journals will make grist for what will be quite possibly the most interesting biography that anyone will have ever written. (Much else will be garbage, I regret). If I were a historian I could hardly imagine a more interesting person for study. Ken Burns, maybe? Her likes and dislikes will be telling. 

I'm going to make a wild guess. She dedicated time to as rigorous exercise as was possible. What time one dedicates to such gives one more life than one dedicates. She showed all seventy of her 96 years before her death.  I figure that she had some exercise machines wherever she was, including Balmoral Palace. 

The cusp explains Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was unusually cunning and pragmatic for an Idealist without compromising his vision, principle, decisiveness, and erudition. FDR had some Reactive traits, but those were "mature Reactive" traits. Facing not-so-mature Reactive types he could beat them (Mussolini, Tojo, Hitler) at their own game. Goebbels gave his infamous "Total War" speech as German troops stranded in Stalingrad were being ground down by the Soviet Army, and FDR gave a retort suggesting that after defeat, Germany could rejoin the community of respectable nations -- although the idea of the Master Race would have to go. FDR could make that prediction even when Nazi Germany was butchering nations. Howe and Strauss may have used "1882" as the cut-off for the Missionary Generation to accommodate FDR; they would not tried to use "1882" to include such cuspers as Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel (1882-1946, who transformed the Wehrmacht into for all practical purposes the Nazi Armed Forces complicit in the crimes of the Third Reich, and hanged as the result of judgment at the Nuremberg Trials) or Romanian generalissimo Ion Antonescu (1882-1946, clearly culpable of atrocities including the Holocaust in places under Romanian rule, executed by firing squad under King Michael's transitional rule that led in a way that deposed the young King). FDR is a much bigger figure in history than Keitel or Antonescu. Most of the nasty fascists from Pierre Laval to Heinrich Himmler and Stalinist stooges including Andrei Vyshinsky are clearly immature Reactives, the sorts whose decisions have much of their source in salving old resentments that they never quite shed. 

Elizabeth I of England, George Washington, Ulysses S Grant, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, and Barack Obama are "mature Reactive" types who do not create trouble so much as that they resolve it -- at times with force, and at times with subtlety.  I think we get the overall idea. They may not pretend to being great thinkers who overpower "weaklings", but they over-perform their images.  Obama is Reactive enough that his whacking of Osama bin Laden resembled a gangland hit. Obama could learn something from Al Capone even if he was as far from being a criminal as he could be. 

Joe Biden is on the Adaptive-Idealist cusp and shows the better traits of both. He may take time to make a decision, but it sticks and so far it is right.

...Hey, folks! I just noticed that I am approaching 10,000 posts! I doubt that that means anything... few pay attention except at round numbers (1024, as 2^10 deserves about as much attention as 1000)

[Classic-Xer]

(09-08-2022, 05:21 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-07-2022, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

If scaring the bejesus out of people doesn't work forever and causes more problems than it cures then maybe you guys should stop doing it as much as you guys have been doing it. Like I said, I know all of you guys pretty well and you've got a pretty good idea about me and how nasty it would be to seriously tangle with me or anyone like me in real life. You want to know what that senile dumb fucker that you and everyone like you elected did, he moved us one step closer to millions of Americans having the right to kill your dumb asses and essentially destroying/removing your guys' primary means of survival these days. Ever wondered what you would do if/when big blue government financially imploded like the Soviet Union, would you be able to survive without it at this point? Scary huh, best you ignore and continue to go along with all the stupid shit *fascist looking shit, communist looking shit, quasi socialist shit" associated with today's left and  the Democratic party of today. I'll see you again next month and see if any of you have wised up/ pulled your head out of your butt yet.

Again, don't bother.

Keep in mind, when I'm speaking to you, I'm not really speaking to you or bothering to change you, save you, spare you from misery or whatever. I understand that you and others like you have no alternative but to cling to Biden and continue portraying/pitching him as being something/someone that he's obviously not and already proved to be incapable of becoming at this point. Is America buying it so to speak? I don't think America is buying it. I haven't seen any signs of it so far. Guess what, you (and the others) are exactly where I told you that you (and the others) and Biden would be two years ago. Now, you and the others can go back to patting each other on the back, telling each other how smart you all are and continue ignoring the obvious signs that most Americans can see clearly.

[Eric the Green]

(09-14-2022, 01:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-08-2022, 05:21 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-07-2022, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-06-2022, 05:10 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-04-2022, 03:44 PM)JasonBlack Wrote: If it's so difficult to get even your own side to rally behind him, how are you ever going to convince conservatives and libertarians, who have no reason to trust his track record either politically or personally, to do the same?

It shows the difference the two parties have embraced: appeals to the very worst versus appelas to our intellect and sense of <insert the platitude of the day>.  Scaring the bejesus out of people works really well at arousing passions, but it creates many more problems than is cures (if it cures any at all).  The more reasoned approach puts even the interested to sleep in short order, though it pushes us toward real though boring solutiins.  And its' not uniques to the USA.  Look at Liz Truss the new UK Prime Minister for a picturebook ideal of the scare 'em model.

I wish it was otherwise.

If scaring the bejesus out of people doesn't work forever and causes more problems than it cures then maybe you guys should stop doing it as much as you guys have been doing it. Like I said, I know all of you guys pretty well and you've got a pretty good idea about me and how nasty it would be to seriously tangle with me or anyone like me in real life. You want to know what that senile dumb fucker that you and everyone like you elected did, he moved us one step closer to millions of Americans having the right to kill your dumb asses and essentially destroying/removing your guys' primary means of survival these days. Ever wondered what you would do if/when big blue government financially imploded like the Soviet Union, would you be able to survive without it at this point? Scary huh, best you ignore and continue to go along with all the stupid shit *fascist looking shit, communist looking shit, quasi socialist shit" associated with today's left and  the Democratic party of today. I'll see you again next month and see if any of you have wised up/ pulled your head out of your butt yet.

Again, don't bother.

Keep in mind, when I'm speaking to you, I'm not really speaking to you or bothering to change you, save you, spare you from misery or whatever. I understand that you and others like you have no alternative but to cling to Biden and continue portraying/pitching  him as being something/someone that he's obviously not and already proved to be incapable of becoming  at this point. Is America buying it so to speak? I don't think America is buying it. I haven't seen any signs of it so far. Guess what, you (and the others) are exactly  where I told you that you (and the others) and Biden would be two years ago. Now, you and the others can go back to patting each other on the back, telling each other how smart you all are and continue ignoring the obvious signs that most Americans can see clearly.

It seems though that Biden's popularity has been rebounding a bit, and that the more-intelligent voters (that excludes you, of course) can separate their doubts about him from their opposition to a Party in Congress that advocates violent and subversive attacks on democracy, attacks on women, and the enabling of mass shootings, climate change and massive inequality and middle class decline. Right now the generic polls show Democrats leading by a point for the midterm congressional election. They'll have to do better than that to overcome the gerrymandering that your disgraceful, evil Party has set up, but the trend is clear. Democrats can win these midterms.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-08-2022, 06:09 PM)sbarrera Wrote: I think that Biden's generational archetype clearly shows - he is an Artist, Silent gen, he's a basically nice guy who just wants a fair world for everyone, and yeah, too old to be the Grey Champion. I believe that he is sincere in his statements and don't understand how he gets portrayed in such a negative light by his opponents. It's laughable that the right tries to portray him as a tyrant (same as they did for Obama, who was a reserved, cautious technocrat suited for the 1T.) But I also think it's amusing that the Internet has basically tried to transform Biden's archetype with the "Dark Brandon" meme. It's like the demand was there so the Internet just digitally mastered a Grey Champion out of available materials.

So far, he and the Democrats have governed more like tyrants than Americans so to speak. I assume that you are a partisan Democrat or Democratic go along like most everyone else here. So, you may not be able to see or managed to avoid the unpleasantries often experienced by those associated with the American right. So, where would you fit during a war between today's Left and the American right?