Flavors of 4Ts

[Eric the Green]

(02-04-2017, 12:48 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:25 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:09 PM)freivolk Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:04 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(02-04-2017, 12:01 PM)freivolk Wrote: Basel is definitly part of the transition, but I would tend more to Campo Fornio.

For Germany?  Are you lumping Austria and Germany together, then?

I think Austria and Germany can be seperatet at this time. Austria is to integral for the HRE at this time. A clear seperation doesn´t happend before 1866 as part of the next crisis.

I am not sure I agree.  Prussia and Austria were fairly distinct at this time, and the Austrian Empire extended well outside the HRE, which was basically a legal fiction at this time, anyways.

But let's say you're right, why was the saeculum truncated in the 19th century, in Europe as well as the US.

I would say in Europe we had rather short 1T and 2T as a result of the Napoleonic Wars. The USA had an extreme short 4T with the Civil war.
My theory for the european saeculum: 1T ca. 1800 -1815, 2T 1815 -1830 (July-revolution in France triggers other european uprising), 3T 1830-1848 (european revolutions), 4T 1848-1871 (end of german-french war)

Very close to what I would say. 

1T 1799-1815
2T 1815-1834 (that's extending it a bit, but there was a strong and spirited revolt in France, and a major and successful reform movement in Britain, in 1832, and another uprising in 1834 that was suppressed and was the last one until 1848. The 1832 French revolt is memorialized in Les Miserables).
3T 1834-1848
4T 1848-1871

I think in America it was more parallel to Europe than S&H say.
1T 1794-1821
2T 1821-1835
3T 1835-1850
4T 1850-1865

Anyway you look at it, this 19th century saeculum was shorter, reflecting the speed-up because of the transition to modern times. Many people suddenly entering the cycle; whereas before the Revolution only the elites participated. And the continuing struggle to establish modernity in both Europe and America.

Some say the 1T could have started in the 1780s; maybe 1783 when the Revolution was won, with the 4T starting with the tensions with King George after the 7 Years War. That would mean moving up the other dates too.