Big Lies

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-13-2017, 03:25 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-13-2017, 02:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-12-2017, 09:13 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I'd say you are going at a vile stereotype of the blue perspective and are bad at listening to what actual blue leaning folk are really trying to say.  You also blatantly advocate for a variation on the red perspective, what you call the 'American' perspective, often claiming your ideals are shared by a lot of folk... which is to an extent true enough.

I don't see myself a pure blue or the best of all possible representative of the blue community.  I approved of Scalia for example, and side with the reds on the history and law aspects of the gun policy discussion.  I have definite disagreements with Eric, although that's hardly unusual.  I don't see you as any more the platonic ideal of the perfect red person than I am perfect blue.  We're all individuals, and labels like blue and red ought to be understood as vague envelopes.  This is why I often call myself 'blue leaning' rather than 'blue'.

It is natural and expected for me that an extreme partisan will be angry at a distorted caricature of what the other guys think, while perceiving themselves as common sense reality dwelling virtuous people.  Lots of folks are like that.  I'd suggest that both the red and blue leaning communities have a solid basis in history, experience and memories of past crises.  It is easy for folk coming from either angle to see themselves as common sense virtuous reality dwellers.  I have problems with folks that see their own perspective as uniquely true while focusing on the worst aspects of other perspectives.

It's really easy, by picking out a bunch of unfavorable aspects of this age group, that culture, that gender, whatever group someone wants to dislike, to work up a despicable stereotype.  I think it far easier to sense when one is being treated as a stereotype than it is to see one's own prejudices.

You're right, I've been going at vile blues who promote and participate in the use of vile stereotypes. Eric, PB, Odin, Playwright, and whoever else decides to join them. I think its natural for an extreme partisan to do what they do, say what they say, think what they think, believe what they believe as long as there is no major internal resistance and no worthy challengers around to be concerned about within their own ranks. So, with that said, Eric and others have free reign among the blue  ranks which is generally countered by people from other ranks. How many bitch slaps would it take to turn a blue perpetual liar like ERIC into a truth teller? I don't know but I'd welcome the opportunity to try it and find out.

Reluctant to respond. But, OK....  make my day! What lies have I told, Classic Xer?

Classic...

The problem is that just as you perceive yourself to have a reality based common sense perspectives, they will sincerely believe themselves to be reality based common sense people. As you perceive them to be liars, insane, stupid or whatever negative stereotype you'd care to apply, they just as sincerely see you in the same vein.

The worst and the most blind on either side, at the core of their vile stereotype, see real problems in the doctrines and policies of the other side. Neither side is perfect. Both sides could do well listening to the abundant clear descriptions of very real flaws in their doctrines, platforms and policies.

But as long as neither side is willing to respect where the other is coming from, and neither can perceive the other save through ugly distorted prejudices and strong negative emotions, there will be no understanding, compromise or movement out of our current political stagnation.

I have, of course, said essentially the same thing to Eric. I don't expect you to acknowledge the perspective any more than he did. For the moment, I think I've made my point as clear as I possibly can... to both of you. I'll stand back with few expectations and see if either of you can let go of hate and prejudice enough to listen to the other.