03-14-2017, 10:12 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2017, 11:20 AM by Eric the Green.)
(03-14-2017, 03:22 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: You don't give up do you. Well I'll give you points for persistence.
Thank you. It is getting too long and tiresome though; I'll see if I can cut it down, deleting the portions where you are just repeating yourself and not getting what I'm saying. Maybe that will cut things down quite a bit, if I really follow through on that...... well, it's still long and entirely useless, since it's probably too hard for anyone else to follow, even supposing anyone is interested....
Quote:EtI Wrote:Use any measure that you like. Idealism/spiritualism only says that WHATEVER you measure is consciousness, since that is what exists.
So your answer is that there is no instrument nor measurement for this consciousness. So therefore we can conclude that there is no empirical standard (other than associated phenomena) to determine if something is or is not conscious. Got it.
No you don't "got it." Everything is conscious; no measurement is necessary. Whatever you measure, is consciousness, since that's all there is. Now, it's true that measurement is not necessary to determine this truth. Whether it can actually be measured in some way, again I refer you to the other thread. Maybe.
Quote:But you don't fool me which is why I think you hate me so.
No, the hate is on you.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Yes, because the "self" is everything. Everything outside my body and my sense perception is also me. The personal self is only an aspect of reality; it does not exist separately.
If the self is "everything" (by which I take you to mean all of the things that have existed, exist now or will exist), then the knowledge of that self must be based solely on that self.
Yes, but that self is everything. Mystic experience is the basis of knowing oneself, and that it is one with everything. Do you think a human being exists separately? Again, that is against science.
Quote:EtI Wrote:I don't entirely disagree with you that everything is mathematics
In that case you might want to study some. I suggest starting with the properties of the number Zero.
I know all about zero, since that is the amount of matter that exists.
Quote:EtI Wrote:But you remain an isolated object, in your view.
As far as one can truly know we are all isolated self-contained objects. I only have observable phenomena to correlate with consciousness in others--the same is true for you. You just prefer to lie to yourself about that fact.
You are lying to yourself and ignorant of science, then, as I already explained.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Many people today hold views like Emerson's
Many people also think that Water Ice only comes in one phase. It comes in comes in 17 different phases not all of them requiring special equipment to produce on Earth. So lots of people hold wrong ideas. That's nothing new.
The point is the ideas that many people hold, are the basis of the mindsets and moods of those who make up generations and create turnings, and respond to history in their way, etc. Ignoring such ideas and mindsets, therefore, is only a basis for another ideology, not the basis of turnings and mega-turnings in the S&H theory. You have made up your own mega-theory; it has nothing to do with S&H.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Welcome to the real world. Not everyone agrees with you. A big majority of people are spiritualists today. Many of those are traditionalists, but not all of them. Spiritualism is the default philosophy, or perennial philosophy.
1. Already knew that and didn't expect everyone to agree with me. Mostly those who don't, don't because they are ignorant, then there are the ones who actually are stupid, and then there those whose livelihoods depend on them not agreeing with me or my views.
2. Actually the fastest growing religion is agnosticism. Not just in the west but globally. Many people are finding "spiritualism" to be tedious. As for those who say they are "spiritual" but not religious--that's really code for the poll taker to go away.
3. Spiritualism is based on a religious dogma of some sort. Many are fine with the Abrahamic Faiths or other Traditional faiths. However, all of them require being taught to a person, often at a very young age prior to their ability to determine fiction from reality developing. As such I must conclude that agnosticism is the default philosophical setting.
If we are speaking of religion in particular then atheism (of the soft type) is the default setting.
All you have explained here, is that you think those who disagree with you are stupid.
On the other hand, those like me who have had spiritual awakenings, including the vast numbers of boomers, silents and late cohort GIs during the recent consciousness revolution 2T, were not "taught" these awakenings, but as in my case, realized something which was the opposite of what they were taught. As Roger McGuinn sang in 1966, "I saw the great blunder my teachers have made, scientific delirium madness." In my more nasty moods, I would say that your philosophy is a kind of madness. But then, that would be talking like you, and I wouldn't want to do that
Quote:EtI Wrote:No, that is not when ideologies are created. Marxism, for example, dates from 1848 in what was likely a 3T or borderline 4T, but certainly not a 2T.
You sure you want to debate Marxism with a former Marxist?
Marxism itself was not created in 1848, Marx wrote a pamphlet in 1848 for a minor left wing party. The manifesto only became important after Marx himself had already died in the 1880s and was pushed by Engels. The vast majority of Marxist work of the 19th century was produced from the 1860s to the 1880s (arguably a 1T/2T boarder line). Furthermore the Second International the main promulgator of Marxist thought until WW1 didn't really take off till the 1890s. There in the works of Marx and Engels were read, and interpreted and explained until you get to Lenin in around 1900 when he bursts on the scene.
By and large the heavy lifting was done not by Marx, and Engels but by others in the Second International. Marxism-Leninism is a rejection of those ideas which are felt to be too idealistic. It was a Reformation within socialism if you will.
And incidentally 1848 was some 33 years after 1815 which was the end of the European 4T for Revolutionary Saeculum.
You put it in the gilded age, which was a 1T, in both Europe and America.
You as a former Marxist appear to have misunderstood it, since you have defected from its most essential insights as if they never penetrated your mind or heart.
Quote:S&H focused on America and the War of 1812 was clearly a 1T in that case.
If you disbelieve me about the Napoleonic wars being 4T events you should probably read the Hornblower books.
The Napoleonic wars era was definitely a 1T era in Europe.
Quote:EtI Wrote:No, founding dates don't necessarily matter. It's when they become much more popular than before, that counts the most.
Either 2Ts are when religions get founded or they are not. It is clear that they are not, so you're attempting to obfuscaste. And even if you've changed your precept to "well they get popular then" you'd still be wrong. The Nation of Islam started gaining major popularity in NYC, Philadelphia and Chicago in the 1940s, and really took off when Malcolm X came on the scene in the mid-1950s. 4t and 1T respectively.
Calling the Nation of Islam a religion is insane. There was clearly no spiritual awakening associated with its emergence. It is merely a kind of nationalist and ethnic extremism.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Scientology has nothing to do with UFOs
So Xenu did not invade Earth with a feet of space ships that looked remarkably like Boeing 707s! Are you sure about that cause it is in the very book the whole cult is based on. Shit South Park did an entire episode on what Scientologists believe!
I read the Scientology books; I don't get my information about religions from stupid TV shows and sci fi. I studied that religion thoroughly, and you have not.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Baloney. NOI is Islam. Sunni Islam dates from the 660s CE.
True on Sunni Islam. But here's the thing Eric I expressly said in my last post that the NOI was not in fact Islam. Were it to be Islam it would be impossible for Malcolm X to convert to Islam.
The Nation of Islam is a religion. It is also not Islam. Were the NOI simply Islam it would be impossible for Malik Al Shabazz (also known as Malcolm X) to convert to Sunni Islam. Sunni Islam is the form practiced in most Islamic countries by the way.
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That seems an incredibly stupid statement, even for you. NOI is not Islam because Malcolm converted to Islam by joining it?
Quote:EtI Wrote:others quite disagree and consider it influential, including obviously Mr. Howe.
He's free to view them as influential. As I said, he's probably from New England stock where they were influential. Out side of that little section of the country no one knows about them besides some stuff they learned long enough for a test in school.
The fact that it's taught in CA high school, where I also learned about it and liked it, is proof that it's influential. Emerson is probably the most influential American philosopher.
Quote:EtI Wrote:YOu have been excluding non-Christian religion and spirituality from Awakenings here in these posts.
Non-Christian religions are not relevant in a majority Christian country.
You admit my point. You exclude genuine spirituality from awakenings. No, lots of people are interested in it.
That Deepak Chopra can be a "best-selling author" is one example of how the recent spiritual awakening is of interest to many people today, contrary to what you say.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16780...hird_Jesus
Oprah Winfrey, Eckhardt Tolle, Wayne Dyer and the Dalai Lama are other examples of how popular the teachers of genuine spirituality are today (as opposed to merely traditionalist or fundamentalist Christianity or Islam). There are legions of other such authors, teachers, gurus, ministers, etc.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Wrong. "we are all One" means that we are One, not a mere collection if separate individuals.
If We are all one, and not a collection of separate individuals then there is no we. So either there is a We, and therefore a collective. Or there is not a One.
I'm not sorry to burst your bubble like this, but that entire phrase is meaningless gibberish. Either there is a We, or there is a One. But never the twain shall meet.
Seriously if I have to define words like "we" and "one" for you it would be better for you to just go back to first grade. I bet if I said that to my five year old nephew "We are all one" he'd look at me, shake is head and say "you be trippin'" (meaning that I'm clearly insane).
The "we" collection is transcended in the experience of oneness, and the we becomes the one. That answers your discussion about we and one. But, we also remain individual expressions of the one.
Quote:EtI Wrote:I'm already on your bad side
And yet you keep coming back for more. I'm beginning to wonder if you're a masochist the way I've been thrashing you. But then again you would have to be smart enough to know that I am thrashing you, which I'm not convinced you are.
You claim to win your debates with me, but that is only your claim. Your thrashing consists of just ignoring what I say.
Quote:I'm not going to get into a debate with you over Liberatarianism. But if you want to debate it, I'm sure Galen would be game. Considering I'm not a Libertarian--but rather a Classical Liberal.
Same god damn thing.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Isn't it the GPS Awakening (Great Power Saeculum)? Or is this your own name for it?
GPS stands for Great Power Saeculum. Just like CWS stands for Civil War Saeculum. I do not claim credit for these abbreviations. I believe I first saw them being used on the old forum by Mr. Horn.
You wrote incorrectly that the abbreviation was GSP.
Quote:EtI Wrote:Obviously not, since my own current religious affiliation descends from the GSP Awakening.
So are you admitting my long time charge that New Age is just a repackaging of the same old occult?
But it good that you recognize the GPS had an awakening. I'd go further that since many of the religions/ideologies/technologies and so on from that era are with us today and still extremely relevant today that the whole saeculum on a Mega-level serves as an awakening..
Of course I know you're going to say "No its not because reasons."
The GPS was not a mega-awakening, but like every saeculum, it had an awakening, which, like all awakenings, included more than the usual amount of spiritual and religious movements. My current religious affiliation is one of them. The New Age is a major one of the most recent 2T. All real spiritual movements are in some sense a repackaging of the perennial philosophy, the default philosophy of humankind, which is spiritualist.
Quote:EtI Wrote:There is little or no reference to ideologies by S&H
But there are plenty of references to political, social, cultural and religious ideas and formulations. In modern English we call these things "ideologies". Just because you have the understanding of a 14th century peasant doesn't mean the rest of us do as well.
In the case of the spiritual or what you call religious ideas, the important thing is not the ideas, but the experiences behind them. Just because you are an Xer and therefore seem to be allergic or immune to such experiences, does not mean the rest of us are as well.
Quote:EtI Wrote:But the effect on this 4T may not happen this time, because of your cynical generation that has rejected everything that was conceived in the 2T.
It wouldn't be up to my generation to implement them anyway according to S&H. But have you stopped to consider that those things conceived in the 2T have been found to be garbage and not worth implementing? No of course not, that would mean laying blame on your generation and by extension yourself.
And yet you're doing that anyway. Since your consciousness expands to the whole of the universe and beyond, by knocking Xers you're really knocking yourself. I know you'll never admit that--it might for a tiny millisecond expose your whole worldview to be the fraud that it is.
Why should I knock Xers? I am just describing them as you describe yourself.
You admit that you reject the most recent 2T, so you have no part in implementing its ideas in the 4T, as proven by the fact that you very actively support the candidate whose sole mission is to oppose these ideas.
Quote:EtI Wrote:As YOU have now done to an astonishing and exaggerated degree by supporting someone who totally opposes the ideals of the 2T, and is destroying every trace of it to the best of his ability.
I hope he destroys all of it. The whole rotten structure must go. Before we build our nice new Trump Style condo complete with gold toilet seats we have to bulldoze a lot of shit.
I'm not ashamed...of winning. Winning is good. I plan on winning so much I'll get tired of winning.
I plan on defeating you guys and your shameful, mistaken, rotten, ancient nonsense. Well, we'll see how it goes.
Quote:Take that up with S&H, who called it a prime feature of Awakenings.EtI Wrote:You didn't read S&H. Salvation through faith rather than works is the major perspective of Christian revivals during 2Ts.
Not quite. Salvation through faith alone is a Lutheran precept and as such was a major feature of the Reformation. All the awakenings that followed just changed the window dressing.
Quote:EtI Wrote:On the other hand, asking for consciousness, which is immeasurable
So Consciousness cannot be measured.
EtI Wrote:since it is infinite
Space is considered to be infinite and yet we can measure part of it. But since it is not measurable (IE Immeasurable--your own words) how can we even know that it is even close to infinite.
Nonsense; infinite means it cannot be measured, and there is no such thing as "close to infinite."
Quote:You shouldn't care, but you do. Don't tell me you don't, cause that only tells me you do.
I don't care, which is why I am not commenting further.