05-17-2017, 01:52 PM
(05-15-2017, 11:39 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(03-13-2017, 11:31 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: In all seriousness, let us debate whether or not today's Alt Right faction are equivalent to the Nazi Sympathizers during the Great Power Saeculum's 4T.
Looking for our more strident commenters to weigh in.
Let’s start with a firm no. They are not ‘equivalent’. I have no difficulty distinguishing the policies and practices of the old mid 20th century fascists, nazis and tyrants and modern alt-right activists. They work for different enough goals using different enough methods that I’m having no trouble telling the two approaches apart. Not so long ago it was fashionable to assert all Democrats were communist, or all Republican fascist. This is great if you visit political web sites as a troll, and that one’s purpose is to create trouble and strife. It is not at all great if one is seeking out meaningful discourse and understanding.
This does not mean that nazi and alt right values and philosophies haven’t common elements. If I say with firm prejudice that they are different, it is still meaningful to seek out commonalities.
The base commonality is tribal ethics, or lack thereof. One looks after one’s own. One’s own might be a tribe, a nationality, a race, a world view, a region of origin, or many other things. One is expected and justified to defend, protect and advocate for one’s group while disregarding the hopes, desires and feeling of those outside the group. Both the Nazi and Alt right embrace such ethics, or lack thereof.
Both nazi and the alt right are also intensely into identity politics. They know who their own are, and in very different ways oppressed groups that are not of their own tribe.
The modern alt right use doublethink to get there. Those following Enlightenment values are apt to believe that governments exist to protect the rights of the people, and that equality is an important value. Thus, it is considered a normal practice to make sure that all citizens are treated well and equally. The alt-right is fond of redefining working for equality for all as tyranny and oppression. The alt right rejects equality, advocates prejudice and treatment of some as not-of-our-tribe, and in general works to oppose the notion of government working for equality and good treatment of all.
The above paragraph doesn’t make a good match for the old nazis. The old nazis openly took their prejudice and hatred to genocidal levels not often seen. Hatred of such behavior was well and truly inserted into American culture by World War II and its aftermath. Thus the hatred and prejudices of the modern alt right have to be hidden behind a degree of indirection. Modern alt-rightists can’t proclaim tribes that are not-us and start openly oppressing them. They have to do doublethink, declaring that protecting human rights and equality is oppression and tyranny. While their central issue is defending privilege and inequality in advocating for their own tribe, they have to pretend not to be practicing identity politics. In fact, it is all about identity politics. They are the most intense and open group of identity politics advocates around.
One must learn to tell the difference between various identity politics groups. The alt right is based on a tribal variation of identity politics. One generally advocates for one’s one tribe, opposing any mechanism that diminishes it. The opposing approach presses for human equality rather than pushing for advantages and privileges for specific identity groups.
Me, my favorite bit of woo is Jefferson’s self evident truths. All men are created equal. It’s the government’s job to protect human rights, to make equality so. I expect advocates of tribal non ethics to come out and make their case for continued prejudice and oppression. That’s what they do. Values are stubborn things. However, my own Jeffersonian values are just as stubborn.
I have often spoken against how stubborn values and world views can be. I’m not immune. To me, there is a direction of progress, and equality is an important part of that direction. It is important to treat everyone well. It is not my obligation to fix every wrong in the world, but I should do what I can and I should not be part of these wrongs. Governments are created among men in order to maintain that progress. That puts me in opposition to those who practice tribal ethics. “I’ve got mine, up yours.”
So, no, the two groups are not identical. They pursue different goals by different means. However, a lack of concern for those outside their own group unites them. That much should be recognized and remembered.
Let it for now suffice to say that there really is no way that Trump, or Pence for that matter, can be another Hitler. We have a Constitution in place to prevent that. And while we're at it, how many of you feel as though Trump is creating a Constitutional crisis worse than Watergate?