We Need Militant Nationalism

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-03-2017, 12:05 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(07-03-2017, 10:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-03-2017, 02:14 AM)Galen Wrote: The libtards can't handle this concept.  It interferes with their concept of omnipotent government.  Their religion is statism and the state is their god.

You can find better examples of both positive and negative rights in the Four Freedoms.  Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech are traditional negative rights, limiting the power of the government and guaranteeing that nobody can take certain things away.  They represent a larger set of traditional negative rights.  However, that leaves Freedom from Fear and Freedom from Want.  These aren't in the Constitution and are only hinted at in the Declaration of Independence, but can stand as good examples of positive progressive rights.

To my mind, Freedom from Want doesn't imply economic equality.  It says nothing about the super rich not becoming super richer.  However, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 25, it suggests a minimum floor level that assures a reasonable right to such things as food, shelter, clothing, medical care and retirement.  I'd strive to achieve this more through an inclusive economy rather than welfare or dole.  I don't want to pay taxes for welfare or a dole either.  Minimize that.  However, being able to find a job with a living wage is a healthy alternative to welfare.

With technology eliminating many jobs, it is becoming harder to sustain an inclusive economy.  This is likely to become worse as other economic sectors collapse.  Basic numbers such as hours per week and age of retirement will have to be looked at hard.  Both were being adjusted freely through the New Deal era, but the 40 hour work week and retirement at 65 numbers have become such a tradition that thinking of changing them is hard.  If an inclusive economy is combined with the new technology, at some point some folk will have to open their minds.

Nor is Freedom from Want unrelated to Freedom from Fear.  You can see Freedom from Want as a key element of the Cold War, or at the bottom of much of the Middle East instability.  Extreme want leads to political instability.  Governments should definitely care about their own people.  I'm not as thrilled with meddling abroad, notably with force.  One often does more harm than good.  However, having most of any population have a decent path to a healthy and sustainable life style takes a lot of tension out of a region.

But for this progressive, the notion of the government as a god is repugnant.  The government is not a goal in itself.  It is a tool to help the People.  As such, keeping its powers limited and focused on the welfare of the People is necessary and prudent.  There is a place for both positive and negative rights in achieving such goals.

And I definitely do not want to see government as a tool to aid and abet the wealthy.  This is a natural trend.  Those with power and wealth will seek influence in government to achieve more power and wealth.  It is nigh on inevitable, but a trend that should be fought with firmness.

I also see Freedom from Want and Article 25 as in opposition to tribal morality.  As long as one and one's group is free from want and getting freer all the time, tribal morality will suggest the heck with everybody else.  I see such "I've got mine, up yours" thinking as destabilizing.

I can't say these thoughts are central to every progressive, but the notion of progressives seeking power for power's sake sounds to me like a conservative straw man.  If an extreme partisan wishes to discredit extreme partisans of the opposite spin, he will embrace and often believe libel falsehood that makes the other group look bad but is far from truth.

Your take on progressivism is a great starting point for a constructive Right - Left conversation similar to ones we had during the past 1T.

All of these pathetic idiots stuck in the 3T are really, really going to hate the coming Regeneracy and 1T. They are going to be considered dunces and will be sent to the proverbial back corner of the class.

I’d like to hold a constructive Right - Left conversation, but attempts at it have failed.  Above, I have attempted to project a positive summary of a progressive agenda in response to a negative straw man of it.  I have also attempted a solid portrayal of the conservative agenda, aware that I’m likely not the best person to portray the Conservative Plan in the best positive light.  I suppose I might try again.

What I call the unraveling memes seem core ideas.  These ideas are often associated with Reagan.  While others may have originated or championed the ideas, they settled the unraveling in place and many conservatives are still either trying to make the agenda work or riding the agenda to a place of power.  To my mind, these ideas are past their time, if they ever had a time.

• Borrow and spend
  
• trickle down
  
• spend on the military
  
• cut domestic programs
  
• the government is the problem.
  

Perhaps not quite connected is the concept of tribal morality.  If a group has what it needs and wants, great, there is no need to be concerned with other groups.  You see this clearest in the medical debate, "I've got mine, up yours", but the idea's shadow falls anywhere white protestants are trying to maintain their traditional prerogatives and privileges.  Tribal thinking, I’ve got mine, up yours, is perhaps a common universal pattern, is perhaps universal, is perhaps inevitable.  It is also considered by many to be anathema.  I would admit that tribal thinking exists, then assert we are mostly Americans, all humans.  Practicing narrow versions of tribal thinking would be a character flaw to be struggled against, not an excuse for oppression and perceived superiority.

This narrow tribal thinking is apt to run afoul of the positive progressive rights such as Freedom from Want, Freedom from Fear, and UDHR Article 25.  This has become a battle front in the clash of ideas.

There is also the conflict between fundamentalist attempts to enforce traditional protestant concepts bumping into conflicting progressive attempts to promote equality and dispel discrimination.  Is America a Christian Nation, or are all humans created equal?  This is messy enough that I’m reluctant to summarize.  "Protestant concepts bumping into conflicting progressive attempts to promote equality and dispel discrimination" might almost be a politically correct way of saying things.  It is far more common for each side to demonize the other's motivation.

I’m certain I’m not the best advocate for the unraveling memes, tribal thinking or the notion that one Christian subculture ought to be dominant.  To hold a conversation, we need advocates of Conservative agenda to find the strengths of their ideas and stop straw manning the progressive ideas long enough to articulate their own. The 'conversation' is too often about red folk being racist, while blue folk are tyrants dictating behavior and oppressing the people.

But the first thing I expect is a march of simplistic blue hostile straw men.  There will be knee jerk shallow rejections of any red concepts, late night comic class junk.  Some of these rejections may come from me.

And marching opposite one side's straw men... the other side's straw men.

But the attempt might be made.