03-15-2019, 11:07 PM
(02-24-2019, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:-- but we do anyhow(02-20-2019, 08:27 AM)Bill the Piper Wrote:(02-19-2019, 05:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I disagree with your view of Mohammed and Islam, Bill. As a member of the Left, I also refuse to condemn them, and assert that the horrors of terrorist fundamentalism are the views and actions of extremists that have some appeal in oppressed societies. I agree that action needs to be taken to restrain and if necessary capture perpetrators of evil, and to counteract extremist fundamentalism by such efforts as taking down their websites and countering their propaganda.
So you disagree that Mohammed was wrong to call for murdering people and to have sex with a 9-year-old? Wouldn't you condemn an American evangelical preacher doing the same things? I'm sure you would. So they are evil in 2019. Would you condemn the evangelical if he committed these crimes in 1949? I'm sure you would. So they were evil in 1949 as well. At which point between 649 and 1949 it ceased to be OK to call for murder and have sex with a child?
Moral shortcomings are by no means unique to Islam. Some natural religions in Africa and Melanesia involved ritual cannibalism. Philistine and Aztec religions required mass human sacrifice. The fact remains, that among extant faiths it's Islam that causes the most problems. Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity are probably the most morally evolved creeds, and it's Christians (maybe especially the British Empire) who suppressed bloody customs all over the world. I'm sure that if there was a Buddhist superpower, it would do the same.
The Left was more ready to criticize Islam after 2006, following the release of God Delusion by Dawkins. I thought it's slowly going back to its pre-1968 self, to cosmopolitanism and rationalism. But around 2015 anti-immigrant populism grew stronger, and since the Left could NOT allow itself to agree with its attacks on Islam, they went back to defending the religion.
BTW to criticize Islam doesn't require one to oppose Muslim immigration to Western Democracies. But the migrants should be required to adopt to Western lifestyle, rather than isolate themselves and cling to shariah.
If you bring up oppression - Polish people were oppressed by the Reds, but they didn't blow themselves up, but migrated to the UK and America to seek constructive employment.
Condemning whole religions is definitely something that belongs in the days of old. Islam teaches peace and morality. Your quotes from Mohammed are out of context. Jihad means the fight against the evil within ourselves. Mohammed was way ahead of his time, and far ahead of most Islam today by honoring women and their freedom.
Islam caused FAR less problems toward others in its history than Judaism and Christianity have. It was more tolerant of the religions of the people they conquered than were Christians, or than the Jews were who burned down cities in the Biblical accounts, or even today in the genocidal behavior of Israel. Islam was well-behaved and tolerant until Israel oppressed the region and inspired a revolt among militants. Fundamentalism is one of the banes of our time, and it affects more than one religion today.
The God Delusion is the work of a supremely-deluded materialist. He was never the voice of The Left. The Left post-1968 is the real New Left; the old Left was captive of industrialism, scientism and collectivism. The Left that emerged in the sixties recognizes that quality of life, the environment, peace, and contemplation, are values just as important as basic survival needs and equal distribution. It recognized that diversity and respect for all peoples of all religions is basic decency, and that humanity and earth are one and interdependent whether we recognize it or not.
But there was a violent strain in the late/post-sixties Left that inspired militant movements in Europe and the Middle East. The old Left used strikes, unions, political power and occasional violent mass uprisings to gain power, including in Poland in circa 1953. The New Left uses people power when it can, and sometimes politics and activism, but when frustrated, some militants since the sixties have turned to riots or terrorism. This also happened sometimes before as well, however. Turn of the century anarchists, 19th century occasional assassins, riots, etc.
Sharia law is not the law in American and Western society, and Islamic migrants of course should recognize that. Sharia Law is counterfeit Islam anyway, and should not be recognized in Islamic societies either, although it's not America's role to impose our ways upon them.
my 2 yr old Niece/yr old Nephew 2020