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Wheels within wheels.
Toynbee saw the civilization, and not the nation-state, as the unit of history. A model of a corporation from birth to death is imperfect; corporations can technically die as they are absorbed into bigger ones, and divisions can be sold off. Keebler Corporation (a maker of snack foods) 'died' when Kellogg's bought it out and incorporated it -- but the Keebler trademark remains along with its 'elves'. When Procter&Gamble found that Pringle's chips (P&G had a good process and innovative packaging) poorly fit its other product lines, P&G sold out the division to Kellogg's, which was more compatible selling snack foods. Kellogg's retains the trademarks and the processes.

But we are familiar with corporate birth, rise, decline, and death. Civilizations are somewhat analogous. A civilization is not so easy to define as is a corporation, but perhaps some local tribe or clan starts doing some things better than other tribes or clans -- and starts innovating because it cultivates creativity, imagination, and enterprise. It is better at organizing people to do what they want and get people what they need. The good society, like a good business, brings out the best in people; the bad one brings out the worst, especially in privileged elites who lord it over everyone else.

Toynbee saw no predictable revival of a civilization once it died any more than Adizes says (he doesn't) that an entity like Montgomery-Ward, Penn Central, or Enron can come back into existence. Our current civilization is not a restoration of the Greco-Roman civilization; if anything, ours is an offshoot of the Islamic civilization because much of our intellectual and technological heritage comes directly from it. I can make the case that the Renaissance is the beginning of modernity for the West because it started trends that never came to a real end. Consider Impressionist art -- in many ways it is a revival of Renaissance tastes with a few twists...contrasting the scenery to the blue of clear skies, the gray of overcast skies, or the green of grass unlike the Renaissance focus on lighting the focus against a dark background. What seems like a diametric opposite is all in all a modification.

The Greeks and Romans did not do algebra and chemistry; the Arabs did. The Greeks and Romans did not do rhyming poetry; the Arabs did. The Greeks and Romans did not make steel or use paper; the Arabs did. We use algebra and chemistry; we have poetic rhymes; we use steel and paper, much unlike the Greeks and Romans.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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Messages In This Thread
Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-11-2017, 03:29 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-11-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-11-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-11-2017, 08:57 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-12-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-12-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-12-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-12-2017, 04:44 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 03-12-2017, 02:26 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-12-2017, 03:01 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-12-2017, 05:31 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-12-2017, 10:31 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 08:24 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-13-2017, 04:29 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 07:15 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Odin - 03-13-2017, 07:24 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by SomeGuy - 03-13-2017, 07:28 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 07:30 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 03-14-2017, 02:57 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 07:44 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by SomeGuy - 03-13-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 08:03 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-13-2017, 08:07 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 08:30 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-13-2017, 10:25 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 11:32 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 10:39 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 03-14-2017, 03:08 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 03-14-2017, 03:02 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-13-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 10:41 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-13-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-13-2017, 11:35 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-13-2017, 11:43 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-14-2017, 01:14 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 12:04 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 12:18 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 12:57 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 03:22 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 03:30 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 03-14-2017, 04:05 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 09:26 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 07-15-2019, 10:45 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-16-2019, 11:41 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 10-14-2019, 01:14 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 10-14-2019, 10:03 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 10-19-2019, 03:39 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 10-19-2019, 10:04 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 10:32 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 10:43 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 03-14-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-14-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-14-2017, 09:29 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-15-2017, 01:28 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-15-2017, 05:01 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-15-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-15-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-15-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 03-15-2017, 05:40 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-15-2017, 09:15 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-15-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-16-2017, 11:36 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-16-2017, 11:34 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-16-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Ragnarök_62 - 08-24-2018, 09:11 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-16-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-17-2017, 01:40 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-17-2017, 04:12 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by The Wonkette - 03-17-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 03-17-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 03-18-2017, 01:26 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 03-18-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 07-11-2018, 01:24 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 07-12-2018, 12:58 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 07-16-2018, 11:26 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 08-19-2018, 02:11 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 08-19-2018, 04:11 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 08-19-2018, 11:25 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 08-19-2018, 09:08 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 08-19-2018, 10:26 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 08-19-2018, 11:57 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 08-20-2018, 12:35 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 08-20-2018, 07:21 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Galen - 08-25-2018, 04:08 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 08-25-2018, 02:30 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 08-26-2018, 10:07 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2018, 01:35 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Kinser79 - 08-31-2018, 03:57 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 08-31-2018, 09:16 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 08-31-2018, 10:22 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-05-2018, 03:55 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-06-2018, 11:14 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-06-2018, 02:37 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-08-2018, 09:27 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-08-2018, 10:59 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-08-2018, 12:24 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 08-26-2018, 01:42 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 08-31-2018, 02:34 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-08-2018, 02:52 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-08-2018, 05:45 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-09-2018, 11:16 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-08-2018, 03:39 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-08-2018, 03:56 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-09-2018, 05:47 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-10-2018, 02:12 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-11-2018, 06:02 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-10-2018, 11:24 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-11-2018, 11:27 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-11-2018, 01:08 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-11-2018, 03:26 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-13-2018, 03:24 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-14-2018, 02:13 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-15-2018, 07:32 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-15-2018, 12:49 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-17-2018, 03:09 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-18-2018, 03:25 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 12-18-2018, 05:58 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 12-19-2018, 10:42 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-23-2018, 12:21 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-19-2018, 02:46 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-15-2018, 08:30 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-16-2018, 05:23 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Bill the Piper - 12-22-2018, 09:11 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-22-2018, 12:39 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Bill the Piper - 12-23-2018, 06:01 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 12-25-2018, 10:24 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Tim Randal Walker - 12-22-2018, 01:46 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 12-25-2018, 02:39 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 02-06-2019, 11:29 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 05-31-2019, 02:37 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 05-31-2019, 03:44 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 05-31-2019, 04:14 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 06-02-2019, 01:01 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 06-02-2019, 05:09 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 06-02-2019, 07:15 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 06-03-2019, 11:35 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 06-18-2019, 07:16 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Mikebert - 06-18-2019, 07:18 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2019, 12:25 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2019, 01:29 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by David Horn - 07-16-2019, 11:03 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-16-2019, 11:54 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 05-31-2019, 07:05 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 07-12-2019, 07:32 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2019, 11:55 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-13-2019, 12:49 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Bill the Piper - 07-13-2019, 02:04 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-15-2019, 02:21 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 07-14-2019, 10:01 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 07-15-2019, 05:02 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 10-16-2019, 02:25 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 10-21-2019, 11:32 AM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 10-21-2019, 12:00 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 10-21-2019, 01:36 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by pbrower2a - 10-22-2019, 08:54 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Eric the Green - 10-23-2019, 01:40 PM
RE: Wheels within wheels. - by Hintergrund - 10-29-2019, 08:51 AM

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