The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-15-2020, 02:51 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think that we are both educated enough to know the meaning of socialism and understand its direct relation to communism. I figure/ assume if I know it then you should probably (???) know it too because everyone knows that liberals are (supposed to be) more intelligent people than me. So, who is proving themselves wrong and who is proving themselves right based on this particular exchange? I know the answer, the question is do you know it? Hint...A monarch and a royal army and a royal air force and a royal navy and an American are good things to have  around while nations are embracing  socialism like   Great Britain and other WE nations  following World War II.

Yes, the old world and the new world took different paths. The US ( New World) opted for a new path. The old world pretty much remained the old world. Later, after revolts and civil wars and a dose of old fashioned imperialism that failed, Great Britain and France (the new west) set themselves apart from the old world (the old east). Later on, the new west along with the new world and won a world war with the old world eastern powers. The remaining eastern power (western ally) imploded and turned into a communist state. Later on, the old eastern world pretty much imploded and was later pretty much destroyed during a world war with a western power, the new world and a new eastern power that was still pretty much old world. The new western powers expanded and eastern power or communist state expanded formed several eastern communist state resulting in the cold war era and the formation of another eastern power or communist state. Dude, I've telling you that you party isn't much different than the countries located in the old word. You see, the countries in the old world voted for socialism while we stuck with capitalism.

I do see France and the areas once controlled by Napoleon as a slightly different version of ‘the West’ than the British, North Americans, Australians etc…  This is a slightly different tradition, the children of the French Revolution, but very close.  East of Napoleon’s area you later got Fascism and Communism.  I don’t think it coincidence.  In Napoleon's area and westwards, you got the full government benefits of the Enlightenment.  To the east, not so much.

My understanding of use of the word ‘socialism’ reflects this.  In the west of Europe, people who call themselves socialist generally also use democracy, balance of power, human rights, and the other Enlightenment principles.  Further east, not so much.  The Germans and their Axis allies converted to Enlightenment values after World War II.  Further east, the Russians and Chinese are still clinging to autocratic Agricultural Age government.  They may give lip service to the Enlightenment principles.  They may call themselves socialist, even if they care far more for their elite ruling class than the people.  They governed then for the Communist Party, and govern today for the super rich elites.  But, they are not really socialists, not really governing for the benefit of the people.  The closest they get is when they try to stave off the eventual revolt by keeping the standard of living going up.  Even if they were not selfishly motivated, they would say the benefits of the Enlightenment are not worth the pain and chaos of the transition.

Even there, I can almost forgive the Chinese.  They lived under crisis or near crisis conditions from the time of the Opium Wars through the Communist Revolution.  It was really ugly.  They were traumatized, though they are getting near the time when these traumas are passing from living memory.  In the meanwhile, they will try a lot before they allow China to fall into that environment again, but their young people do not remember.  They look at Enlightenment cultures and ask why not in China too?

Thus, I cannot quite comprehend the US conservatives who claim they cannot tell when Enlightenment values are missing.  I mean, really?  Human rights?  Checks and balances?  Fair and real multi party elections?  You notice when such things are missing.  At least, I do.

Thus when a US conservative claims not to be able to tell the difference, I am dubious.  I mean they are supposed to be less acute, but come on?  They are not that dumb.

At any rate, I can approve of the Western people calling themselves socialists who actually do work to the benefit of the People, who actually include the Enlightenment principles in their culture and government.

Russia and China?  They are in another category entirely.  At best, they give the Enlightenment lip service only.  As the token Whig, this rubs me very wrong.  To the extent that conservatives pretend not to be able to tell when the Enlightenment culture and values are missing, they rub me wrong too.