(01-22-2020, 02:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:(01-22-2020, 12:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(01-22-2020, 11:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You don't remember all the demonizing of American troops that went on back then. You don't remember the amount of liberal posters and liberal supporters who ended up being lost over it back then. I do because I was there taking them to task and openly trashing them (treating them like scumbags) right in front of the eyes of the entire Democratic population that existed at the time. Hint...I don't treat liberal scumbags the same way as I treated the decent Democrats and the decent Democrats sided with me which forced you and others to change their ways. I'm not dreaming or role playing (pretending to be someone other than myself) or playing senseless political games.
Treating people like skumbags does sound like you. You do seem to enjoy it. I don’t doubt you could find people you consider scumbags if you looked for them. I just found more people who were concerned with the administration lying about cause for war. The destabilization of the Middle East by the conservative administration was problematic. Bush 43's alliance between military neo cons, oil interests and Evangelicals on top of the unraveling memes was toxic. That was of far more interest to me that being obsessed with treating people like scumbags. There were real scumbags to pick on.
As a devout agnostic, I do find it ironic that many conservatives embrace religious thought in America but demonize it it in the Middle East. It is quite obvious that the Capitalist and Communist systems were exploiting the oil and that anyone for the people would devalue those systems. They favored the elites rather than the locals. Sticking with the Agricultural Age autocratic values was the option left, even if they have the same flaw. If you don’t include the Enlightenment approach such as human rights, checks and balances and real multiple party elections, there is no check on the power of the elites. I don’t consider Agricultural Age values a good choice in modern times, but what choice do they have? Well, those who wished more Western values immigrated to the West. That is a valid choice, but it leaves those sticking with religious old values in charge back in the Middle East.
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I consider Fantasy Role Play to be another form of fiction and literature. At center it is a shared daydream. Most people watch TV, plays, movies and other traditional forms. I prefer to be more active, to create characters, to effect the plot. Thus, I watch little TV, see few movies. Others choose otherwise.
As I recall, we weren't fighting over the cause during the war. We were fighting over what was going on with our troops during the war and what was true and false related to them and their conduct. I was fighting with you about lying to me about the conduct and motives of American sons and daughter, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers who were over there that you didn't know at the time. Yes, I treated you the same as any other liberal scumbag who was into doing it at the time. You were a big boy who making his own decisions and expressing his beliefs and views of our troops at the time right. Now, you can lie to your own and lie to yourself but lying to me could be self damaging and even self damning at times. I've already proved this.
The problem was usually the top leadership making ethical lapses. The American soldier in the battlefield normally behaves honorably.
Quote:Hint....American conservatives/liberals aren't into state sponsored religious persecution or into banning peoples religious freedom like the old world that their ancestors left. So, chew on that. Does an American liberal really give a shit if Omar is black and happens to be a Muslim these days. Does Omar understand that classical liberalism teaches that neither of them matter or serve as a shield to protect her or her religious beliefs or racist beliefs from good old fashioned American criticism or preventing her from getting into trouble with American law enforcement officials these days.
If one is a Muslim in dissent with non-Muslim leaders who commit crimes against Muslims or with some amoral, nominally-Muslim leader (let us say Satan Hussein) then the religious liberty in America that fosters actions consistent with conscience for Christians and Jews is as suitable for allowing the exercise of an Islamic conscience. Devout Islam is well within the range of beliefs consistent with America. Nobody says that the murderous Islamofascism of al-Qaeda was consistent with America; indeed the 9/11 plotters knew well enough to avoid Dearborn, Michigan (the city with the highest percentage of Muslims in America, and a place to be avoided... if one is a pimp, pusher, prostitute, sexual pervert, drunken brawler, or reeling drunk. This said, many Christians and Jews happen to like Dearborn for what it is in contrast to the sewer that is southwest Detroit. Did I tell you the difference between Michigan Avenue (US 12) in Detroit and Dearborn? The Detroit side has lots of sexually-oriented businesses and liquor stores, not to mention the horrid people unwelcome in family-friendly Dearborn. Better the mosque than the whore-house. American Muslims are straight-laced people on the whole, and that makes them tolerable despite their differences to people who may find their religion incomprehensible or absurd. Most of us understand pimps, pushers, prostitutes, perverts, brawlers, and reeling drunks all too well and warn our children to avoid them.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.