The Partisan Divide on Issues

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-22-2020, 02:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As I recall, we weren't fighting over the cause during the war. We were fighting over what was going on with our troops during the war and what was true and false related to them and  their conduct. I was fighting with you about lying to me about the conduct and motives of American sons and daughter, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers who were over there that you didn't know at the time. Yes, I treated you the same as any other liberal scumbag who was into doing it at the time. You were a big boy who making his own decisions and expressing his beliefs and views of our troops  at the time right. Now, you can lie to your own and lie to yourself but lying to me could be self damaging and even self damning at times. I've already proved this.

What I remember from the old days…

Back on September 12, 2001, Bush 43 put out his plan.  He was going to respond militarily.  He was not going to look at the underlying causes for the conflict, the reasons why the incident took place.  Just hearing that much, I predicted on the T4T site of the time that he was going to fail.   I hadn’t figured out the strategy yet.  It was too soon.  He likely did not have a firm strategy yet.  But I predicted he was going to fail.

Months later, the pentagon had a theory.  You need a certain ratio to succeed in an insurgent war of occupation, a sort of necessity for changing a culture by force.  Bush 43 thought his culture obviously superior, and denied the ratio of troops.  He also remembered his father’s failure, and was trying not to raise taxes, and thus he was fighting a limited war with limited forces.  Thus, he denied the pentagon call for more troops.

Two incidents come to mind.  In one, a sniper fired at American troops from a village.  The Americans called in artillery fire on the village.  Another time a wedding was being held.  The locals celebrated by firing their weapons in the air.  The Americans again responded with artillery fire.

Much later, the Americans switched strategy.  As in Vietnam, they had been counting victory by the body count.  The switched to winning hearts and minds.  They segregated Sunni and Shite, defended both, and the bad guys became those who left their enclaves to attack their opposites.  It seemed a worthy switch in tactics.  It was too late, and they hadn’t enough boots on the ground, and they had made enemies using artillery on too many people.

There is, I suppose, a difference between criticizing a theory, and demonizing the leader who does not believe in the correct theory.  I am a theorizer.  You are a demonizer.  I suppose if you are a people person, not a theorizer, it is possible to mistake criticism of the theory for demonizing of the person.  But I am a theorizer.  I’m into facts, reason, objective truth.

I do not so much blame the troops as the leaders for using bad theories, bad tactics.  That is just the way I approach things.  It takes all types.  I just happen to be a INTP.  This may be why my posts include a theory on why I hold my opinion, why your posts feature demonization of individuals.  Your posts are pretty much fact, reason and truth free.  Imagination and lies are sufficient to demonize.  If you demonize enough, make the other guy look thoroughly bad, it would seem from a people person’s perspective you might have done your job.

I am more into perspective that if you are running on a bad theory, you are going to fail spectacularly.

Thus we remember the long ago time different.  I still hold by the theories of the time.  The big mistake was I believed Vietnam had proven ‘cut and run’ was a better approach that ‘stay the course’.  Bush 43’s war seemed to show ‘stay the course’ could work if you used the correct tactics from the beginning and were willing to pay the costs in gold, iron and blood.  It seemed that the USA was not so willing.  We have been very reluctant to commit boots on the ground since.

This may be in part a difference between Agricultural Age autocratic thinking and Industrial Age scientific.  From my perspective, it is necessary to get the theory right.  From your perspective, you stick to your beliefs, dogma, tribe and demonization.  Thus, we are to a great degree talking past one another.  Your imaginative creativity just wings around without meaning a lot.