Quarantine Shaming and Emergence of Groupthink

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-21-2020, 01:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: The "unity" seen for the first time right now IS the beginning of Regeneracy - to which I am of course not opposed.

Hmm.  Most people are past the realization that a problem exists and into the trial and error phase about solving it, but I would generally agree.  It is just that this is a faster than usual Crisis.

(03-21-2020, 01:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: This "unity" must overcome the paradigm of the Prophet.  He is not involved because he wants to be, it is of necessity only.  And in youth, the Prophet does not conform, generally, to such a paradigm shift except on his own terms.  It is never about unification.

In the Industrial Age the new ideals were declared in the Awakening, but only implemented in the Crisis.  There was a lot of compromise and negotiation in the Unravelling.  In the Information Age most of the problems the Prophets made noise about were addressed and resolved during the Awakening through legislation.  During the Unraveling, they blue were pretty much on the defensive, engaging when the concepts implemented by the GIs were attacked by the Conservatives.

But the concepts of red and blue are not new.  They have roots before the New Deal in robber barons and reformers.  The modern era is only reinforcing the old concept of blue, in particular using science based information rather than wishful thinking to shape government response to problems.  

(03-21-2020, 01:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: What we are seeing now is the beginning (NOT THE FULFILLMENT) of the Groupthink that will bring stale culture.  To which the next Prophet will rebel against in the next Awakening.

Agreed.  When the Crisis is over, when the High comes, when the Nomads are in charge, there has traditionally been a time of materialism, infrastructure building, and rejecting the values that were old coming into the Crisis.  In this case, this would be the red perspective.  

We are not though improving.  The next group of Prophets will likely find something very legitimate to complain about.  But the blue agenda has been well set over the years.

(03-21-2020, 01:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Please agree:
when Individualism is strong, OUTWARD regeneracy is weak.
When Collectivism is strong, INNER regeneracy is weak.

When you understand the above concept, we can begin to understand each other.  We are not here talking in our own terms and phrases since we are in the Generational Cycles forum concerning the ideology (NOT VALUES) of Strauss and Howe.

Values =/= Ideology
Ideology = / = Values

There's an incredibly stark difference.

Anyone who leads first with Values in the coming Regeneracy will be utterly shunned and left out.  You will be seen as part of the problem, not as part of the solution.

I disagree.  I see worldview, values, ideals, cultures, groupthink, political parties as all dealing with a large number of people sharing similar models of how the world works and values which define what they will work towards.  There are slightly different aspects associated with each word, but all involve an understanding of how the world should work (a world view), and what is important to a well running world (values).

Just because you cannot describe and define how your future groups might commonly understand the world, might work towards specific things, that does not mean that future groups if they really form won't have them. Your ignorance of a thing is not proof that it does not exist. 

I see that the Crisis after the Regeneracy as a time when loyalty to the country is strongest, when those obsessed with individual goals are most shunned.  This is very different from the Unraveling.  The time has come to work towards common culture wide goals.  We will fall back to individualistic greed later.  During the Unraveling, I sold out too.  In working towards the blue agenda and the cause, I am not at all anticipating being shunned.  It is those who constantly complain about the necessary that have to worry.

(03-21-2020, 01:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Not every human being has values.  Every human has ideology even if they know it or do not know it.  Not every human without values is IMMORAL either.  What the Regeneracy generation will come to be defined as (as has been previously) is a generation that sets aside all values in order to accomplish great things OUTWARDLY.  That is why they feel inwardly dead once all the accomplishment has been done.

Thus, usher in the next Prophet to revive in the opposite direction.

An immoral person will not do certain things, which implies to me values and ideology.  It may be only a unrelated by logic list, such as Ten Commandments supposedly handed down by God, but it still counts if the person believes in them.

(03-21-2020, 01:40 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Yin and Ying are not values-driven.  They just are.  The ebb and flow of the wave accuses no one and has no righteous indignation.  It is a force of nature.  Prophet is not Yin/Yang oriented.  Prophet is an archetype of very inwardly-driven CAUSE.

That CAUSE-mentality has almost destroyed America.  Thank the gods I now know it won't destroy us, but only turn another corner in our history.

I am not sure how you dragged Yin and Yang into this.  You can perceive the red and blue as dynamic opposites, with positive outcomes coming from a balance between them.  This sort of opposes S&H, which suggests one phase of an ideology or culture gets overcome every four score and seven years.  Instead of a pendulum you get a spiral.  You do see a steady swing between conservative and progressive, but there is also a steady improvement as the culture grows and evolves.  Each time the old culture has been imperfect, and come the Awakening of the Industrial Age, Prophets point out the imperfections to be addressed in the next Crisis.  They seem to have been addressed much sooner in the Information Age.

And that is how America evolves.  Not steadly, but in four score and seven year fits and starts.  The causes - getting rid of kings, getting rid of slaves, getting rid of fascists - are real and necessary steps for growth.  They have not destroyed America.  They have redefined it, allowed it to grow.

In your obsession with the Prophets this time being evil, you fail to perceive the very real flaws in America that did exist.  In not defining an ideology that ties your group together, arbitrarily you try to claim goops will come together for no reason, without a common understanding or set of goals. What makes a group a group? The hypothetical Nomad - Hero - Artist alliance in your bogus ideology is not given a reason to exist or a common understanding. That just is an indication that the ideology is incomplete.

I find it more essential to assert the ideologies do exist, that the red Republicans and Blue Democrats have declared platforms which people have voted on.  The progressive agenda is real, and the Coronavirus has gone a long way to uniting us behind one long existing but ever changing set of ideals.