COVID-19 is the climax to this 4T

[Eric the Green]

(04-14-2020, 05:53 AM)Isoko Wrote: Eric,

What you are describing here is basically a liberal progressive version of the coming kingdom of God on Earth. Your ideas that the two world wars were apocalyptic events that had to be brought about in order to bring about the liberal utopia of tomorrow is almost like your own version of the book of revelations. To my eyes, it reads as basically the same typical American view point I have been reading for ages and that is apocalypse with an eternal ending.

The truth is this is just not how history works. You talk about cycles yet this point of view is very linear. The reality is the continued cycles of time along with competition and conflict, as we are now starting to see with the new great game being played out between the great powers of today.

The only reason there has been no mass shooting war is because of WMDs but if they did not exist, you can bet the elites in power would try to rustle up a large scale conventional war for their own purposes and the people would go for it. A bit of propaganda always works wonders, even in the internet age.

Before you say that the people don't go for war anymore, I have read reports of how jingoistic Americans felt after 9/11 and how excited some of the young guys were for fighting the Taliban. So in essence, the 1960s didn't achieve anything on that front.

The two world wars proved that war is futile and that ambitions for nations to dominate others is out of date. Whether that's a liberal utopia or not is a matter of what you call it. I call it just good sense. Most of us live in relative peace now in the developed world at least, and in many other places. Peace is just what we are coming to expect. But wars have not ended, and won't end for I don't know how long; I already admitted that, and yes 9-11 and Vietnam showed that. But those wars only continued to prove my point. So for humanity, it takes a while for people to learn. Given that, no I don't think utopia is on the horizon.

Quote:As for globalisation, there have been many periods of globalisation throughout history. Eventually they always end and a return to closed borders becomes the norm for a period. The latest Corona virus situation is probably the end of this current period of globalisation. Will there be other periods? Of course! And will there be more protectionist periods too? Of course! That is history.

As for a new renewed UN, I am sure it will be done. Peace in our time and all that. Then corruption runs riot again and we end up back to square one. Remember Star Wars and the Galactic Republic? All it took was for one guy, the Emperor Palpatine, to get into power and corrupt things and before you know, he could proudly declare that HE was the senate. It's the same thing in Human history and it will never change. Well maybe one day but it will take thousands of years.

Now you mention how everyone is going to become some coffee coloured race due to globalisation. I strongly doubt that the rest of the planet will go down that road. America? Probably because it is America.

But Europe? Especially Mother Russia? I'm nearly about to fall off my chair in laughter at your statement. Russia is one of the most closed off countries in the world. I live here and the people are incredibly nationalistic, even the liberals. A Russian liberal is like far right by American standards. I remember talking to a liberal guy here once and he was like, yeah we don't mind a bit of immigration but we don't want too much as it'll ruin Russia.

Every single person I have spoken to here particularly the young, have strong feelings about immigration and are downright very critical of it. They actually think the West has gone mad and how stupid can they be to let in all these people.

I think though there is a reason for this and that is America has always been at heart a liberal society where as Russia is the conservative one. These days though the Russian point of view is attracting the middle ground in Europe more then the American one.

Also last comment about how the blue must always win otherwise America will be a banana republic. Erm, Eric, America already IS a banana republic. No offence but if you let in millions and millions of low IQ people no matter what race or ethnic group, you are going to get just that, a banana republic filled with mass corruption and mass poverty. The future of America in my eyes resembles something like a mixture of Brazil and South Africa. That is a small elite surrounded in slums of the poor.

How are you going to support all these people when automation comes your way and they have no more jobs to do? What are you going to do when these people feel desperate, get hold of America's guns and decide to go on a crime spree? 

I've seen America's future after spending time in South Africa and trust me, it ain't pretty. So I think in America's case, going to the red would actually be a better idea in the long run because if you keep going blue, it'll just end up destroying your country.

I thoroughly disagree with all this. No surprise. Trump has aroused fear of immigrants here in the USA, but there was no problem to begin with. This was nothing but a campaign slogan, and you and others are using it to characterize our immigrant situation. It has no relation to reality. Problems have increased in a last few years because the conditions in the central american countries are so bad. Part of this is indeed "history," the history of USA domination and neglect. The alliance for progress that JFK started is the better course. As countries get more prosperous, peaceful and democratic, they don't leave to come to the first world.

I certainly don't subscribe to your apparent support of aparteid. South Africa was a thoroughly messed up place and still is, but getting rid of aparteid was a great advance. We can expect black people to progress like others do. People are people, and racism is a huge and destructive lie. I understand that people prefer to associate with people more like themselves. But I probably have more in common with an educated black person in a blue state than a redneck white guy from the deep rural south or a hick from the deep sticks who votes for Trump. But like it or not, people are different, and our lesson today is to get along with everyone regardless of where they come from as best we can, since there's no stopping globalization now. Everyone is everywhere, whether they are Africans or white rednecks, liberals or conservatives, religious or atheist, white, hispanic, asian or black or whatever, and that trend cannot be stopped. To think so is truly unrealistic. The technology alone makes your hope to return to the middle ages or renaissance great-power era a futile fantasy. Times change and we don't go back. What's for sure is that if people in the USA keep voting for Republicans, who support, perpetuate, cause and uphold and maintain the banana republic system of "a small elite surrounded in slums of the poor," then of course we in the USA will end up like Brazil or South Africa or Honduras, IOW banana republics. We will do better the blue way, voting for programs that lift people up, and knowing and believing that they can indeed lift people up, because THEY DO.

When I say globalization, I don't mean no borders, imposed uniformity for the whole world, or domination of the globe by a few big companies or nations. Unity within diversity is the best course.

If you live in Russia, then your milieu is very conservative, that's for sure. There are movements to get rid of the thug ruler, but Putin has the land pretty much bought up and in his pocket now. I don't see much hope for Russia anytime soon. All we can do is try to contain the damage it does to the rest of the world. Russia is a truly pathetic case, and has been for centuries. Certainly no land to compare to, or in any way take into account in looking to the future.

I don't go by Star Wars. I don't believe Oliver Stone either. I have better ways of predicting the future than that. The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice. I would not like to return to ancient or medieval times, or use them as a benchmark, even if there were some worthwhile aspects to them to preserve and admire. People today have a lot more freedom, peace and prosperity than they did then. We do make progress, even if in fits and starts. But we DON'T make progress when we view things cynically. Only idealists have any role in creating the world.