10-15-2020, 10:48 AM
(10-15-2020, 05:19 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:(10-14-2020, 11:16 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think it's very clear that the blue media is in the business of seeking injustice and exploiting it without concern of the overall damage that it may cause. I doubt you'll find many KKK living in Minneapolis or St. Paul. Yes, there are less sterling people on both sides. The Democrats just seem to have a lot more of them these days.
I don't see how drawing attention to injustice is exploiting or causing damage. The intent is to make the injustice go away, which is a good thing. Are you in favor of injustice that you are defending it?
Resolution of violence obviously depends on either reducing injustice (a liberal and reformist solution) or compelling people to accept it as somehow inevitable and unavoidable (which implies repression of dissent). The former makes the community better. The latter causes the underlying pathology to worsen.
Quote:One of the central figures behind the racist violent cops is David Grossman, author of On Killing. He made a big deal about how soldiers and cops need reinforcement from the people after doing their jobs, how people don’t like killing, how it is a good thing that the population get behind them after they do their duty. A major distinction is in the behavior after Vietnam and how the people reacted after the recent Middle Eastern wars. Returning Vietnam soldiers were blamed for being drafted and following orders. More recently we may blame the politicians for war policy, but honor the soldiers regardless of what we think of the politicians.
Obviously police work and combat are very different. Combat is rarely a career, but police work is. I wonder how many police never shoot anyone. Shooting is an objective of infantry and artillery, but for a cop that is a last choice.
Democracies generally treat war as an abnormal situation, one to be avoided if possible. That's not to say that democracies can't win wars; the only time in which the democracies did badly in war against an invader was 1940, when Hitler had the element of surprise against countries not cooperating until too late.
Soldiers must be taught to give up their aversion to killing so that they can survive in battle. Recent soldiers returning to civilian life must be taught that thoughts that make killing possible are no longer necessary or desirable. Soldiers follow orders that in the end civilians give.
This need for the public to applaud violent behavior can turn into a culture of encouraging violent behavior. If there is an unjustified racial killing, it is excused as the cops think the public should always be behind police violence. I am dubious. The general public has a duty to be the conscience of those who use violence on their behalf. If the violent people go astray, we are supposed to let them know about it. We are supposed to try to stop it.
Quote:And we are seeing variants of it all over. Whether it is the bad cops, the Proud Boys, Antifa, the Boogaloo Bois, the Wolverine Watchmen, Trump’s secret police, whatever. The general trend is for the general public to say enough violence. The general trend is that the violence stops. The military stops taking part in action against the American people. The secret police disappear from the headlines. Everybody rejects the Boogaloo Bois. The actions of the Proud Boys and Antifa are both rejected. I don’t expect the various Midwest militias to be plotting to kidnap elected officials in the near future.
The common theme is ‘bad violent extremists, bad’. 2020 may long be remembered as a bad year, but the people are winning. It is looking to end.
Most Americans are sickened by violence of all kinds. Peaceful protests are to remain peaceful. Anyone who tries to use a peaceful protest as cover for violent, destructive, or larcenous acts can expect no understanding from peaceful protesters with limited objectives. No, I have no desire to defend someone who torches a car or or pizza parlor. No, I have no desire to understand why someone comes out of a store with a large selection of merchandise that one usually bags to protect them. No, I have no desire to understand why someone beats another person up.
Quote:You (Classic X'er) seem to be an exception with your obsession with violence. Lot of talk. No action. You are still caught up in the Industrial Age pattern, when you needed violence to convince those with the old values to change. Not clear that this is true anymore. Note how the violence slows.
People are more convinced of the righteousness of their side. At least my side is more diverse in origins if similar in some key values (such as respect for curiosity and educational attainment and a respect for lawful authority.
Quote:Agreed, the red violent extremists go by different names in different parts of the country. They obsess on different issues.
They have resolute beliefs, but no deep thought. When I saw the slogan "Make America Great Again" I could only ask "What does Donald Trump mean by greatness". Maybe life was easier in some ways, largely because real estate was much cheaper in real terms; there were far more opportunities to start businesses when Wal*Mart, McDonald's, and Amazon were not around. But that is over. Real estate was far cheaper because a stevedore might live close to the docks and thus find it easier to have a waterfront view from his flat. We have about four times as many people today as we did in 1910, and far fewer people working at the docks. Places with waterfront views are typically 'luxury' housing now.
Would I want to go back to 1910? That was a great time to be middle-class even without all the electronic gadgetry. But not an industrial worker, and certainly not an ethnic minority. "Ethnic" but white? Words like "P---ck", "D---", and "K---" were commonplace in circulation, and they were said in about as much malice as "ni--er" is used even today. Life was not easy for GI kids from blue-collar families in those days, and the only thing good about growing up as a GI kid in those days was that one was developing some very good habits.
Quote:I did visit the web site of the Twin City’s Star Tribune. They did mention it would have been George Floyd’s birthday, but the protests and violence was not part of the coverage. COVID was a big deal getting many articles. The old high school is getting converted into apartments. Things seem with the exception of COVID to have returned to normal.
A 4T eventually brings about a "new normal" in much of life. Old bad habits that lack value for survival die out. Maybe some traditions that survived the last Crisis remain, get renewal, or return with new meaning; dubious practices die. Most of the dubious practices that perish come from the 3T. The "new normal" of a 1T, after issues of survival are revolved, are habits that arise in a Crisis -- like taking the long view, revitalizing community, and supporting conformity in economic result. I expect the repudiation of trickle-down economics and shock jocks.
Quote:It is only when the red extremists go wild that there is a public rejection of their bad behavior. Whether it is the Proud Boys shooting into crowds, bad cops being bad cops, militias kidnapping governors, Trump tear gassing peaceful protestors, I don’t see where the Democrats are the problem. Antifa, maybe, but Antifa in its pure form are defenders against fascists. Theirs is not what the Democrats are promoting, not part of their platform.
Extremist of both the Left and the Right often gravitate to ethical offense, including violence, to make their point. Trump is an extremist, and instead of condemning right-wing violence he asks us to understand the anger toward people taking down monuments to Confederate heroes or not letting bars open. Trump has a tendency for facile statements such as "there are good people on both sides". No, there are not good people on both sides on such things as arson, mugging, child abuse, or drug trafficking. Evil is real, and it can be tempting, but evil is always a poor choice.
Quote: (to Classic X'er) --
So your perception is what your politics leads you to see. It has little to do with reality, not that paying attention to reality is a red strength.
Every word and every deed has a consequence. I doubt that he fully understands this.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.