Trump & Putin. Yes, It's Really a Thing

[Ragnarök_62]

(07-26-2016, 12:09 PM)playwrite Wrote:

(07-26-2016, 12:43 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(07-25-2016, 11:11 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: / Playwrite

Quote:

Quote:Obama has pushed back on the House of Saud more than any other President; with the Iran agreement and taking on the Salafists  in both Syria and Iraq - basically, he has sent the message to both the Saudis (and the Israelis) that we're just not much into you any more.

To clear up what may be a misunderstanding: Essentially, I think humans as a species are just plain tacky, tacky animals.   That attribute is value neutral since we should be known by the animal kingdom's company we keep for the most part.  We're in deep with dogs [nothing much more than domesticated wolves} and cats which are extraordinary predators in their own right. Don't ask me wrt cats, just ask any yard bird. Ancient wolves hooked in with tribal humans so they could sponge off human kills and in return, the wolves provided early warning systems and hunt help.   Since humans are predators , evolution favors some humans getting useful brains for the killing. That's why we get some folks who have assorted quirks say like Hillary and Trump. Both are very good at exploiting the situation on the ground.  The problem with this trait is that it can be a nuisance in modern society in that it over reaches and infringes on others' rights.
Also, btw, Putin tends to have selfsame traits as well.

So , now how does this fit into the Middle East? Well, the Mideast has oil, which is a very coveted thing. Oil seems to provoke ancient hunter instincts really, really bad. We need to acknowledge the dark side that exists in humans and have.  That means the tribes of the USA and Russia need to over ride the "we gotta get that oil" bad instinct and banish leaders who are prone to hunt. Now, Russia, as you said is in it for a warm water port, not oil, because they have enough of their own oil. Finally, you have the tribes of the Middle East. There aren't really any nations per say there, just imaginary lines in the sand. There is no Syria , Iraq, Jordan, Israel, etc. in reality.  It's just assorted tribes. That means the best course is to fob the mess off on somebody, anybody who wants it. Like is said wrt Afghanistan, it's the grave yard of empires, well because it's not a place per say.  It's just a spot with again, tribes. Tribes are just unpredictable and you'll never, ever know what you'll get.

Quote:Putin has greatly complicated Syria, and delayed any reasonable peace obtainment.  It's not surprising that he would prop up his boy, Assad, to keep his warm water port, but I think Kerry's got it right that there can be no long lasting peace as long as Assad is in power.

See above. The obvious thing to do is fob the whole mess off. Peace will not originate from anything the US does, but rather how the volatile tribal  situation unfolds unto itself. The same goes for Assad. He's just a  master predator who may or may not keep power. That fate will ultimately fall to the tribes.

Quote:And of course, Putin's mischief all ties back to the sanctions, but more importantly, just being corralled by a ring of Eastern European countries whose people prefer to look West not East.

A counter idea is that I rather doubt the US would take lightly Russian military exercises in international waters off the East/West coast.  I think the US would really go nuts if say there we Russian military bases going up in Canada / Mexico.  Add to that, Russia had two very bad experiences with invasions from the West. Since Russia is a major power, discounting its fears is not at all a wise course of action.

Quote:  I realize that there is some truth in Western style elites doing a number on these emerging economies and society; they need to be dealt with just as much there as they do in our own back yard.  But its ridiculous to compare that to what Putin's kleptocracy  

From the above, I'm not factoring in who's kleptocracy is better or worse

Quote:It is that kleptocracy that Trump has used to flourish in his personal wealth, and more than willing to sale us down the river to.

The question between the exclusive choice of Clinton vis/vis Trump in a foreign policy with Russia is strictly based upon which option plays a part on the ultimate environmental disaster - thermonuclear war. Global warming is a piker compared to that.  As one who grew up in the shadow of the Cold War, that is a really big deal. As for Trump, the best option if for Hillary to disclose her talks and Trump to disclose his taxes. If Hillary folks think Trump is a shyster, then that trade off is well worth it. Think of it as a game of spades.
Who do you think has the queen of spades?  Hillary or Trump?

Quote: Neither the Saudis, the Chinese, or any one else comes close to the potential harm Putin wants to impose on our society - he blames us for the what he considers the biggest and most shameful mistake in history, the fall of the Soviet Union - as he should.  We'd be stupid to discount him.

Yes, however nuclear arsenals can't be wished away.  A policy of agree on shit/ disagree on other shit is fine. Relations with Russia should be handled in a realistic manner, not some idealistic dream that humans are angels in general.  We're not and we'll never, ever be.