now that I think about it, we were quite the 4T nation for a while (very briefly)

[Eric the Green]

(09-30-2021, 12:08 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-29-2021, 12:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-29-2021, 12:23 PM)nguyenivy Wrote:

(09-27-2021, 09:43 AM)AspieMillennial Wrote:

(09-27-2021, 12:08 AM)galaxy Wrote: I'm glad someone else has noticed this. The Millennial Generation has transitioned during the last few years, and is much more obviously Civic now than it was previously. Of course it always was, but in 2014 one had to look much more closely and carefully to see it. Now it's impossible to ignore. I think the peak Civicness is probably those born between 1988 and 1996 or so. Perhaps the seemingly "stepwise" transition into this turning has stratified the generation a bit. Those born before 1988 are noticeably less collectivist and conformist, while those born 1996 and later are activists, with a general "darker" mood (that is, more cynical and less optimistic, but still just as collective), which might be partly responsible for the fact that wider society still perceives the Millennial generation as ending around 1997 or so (with the incorrect designation of memory and understanding of 9/11 as a generational fault line, rather than what it is, an intragenerational* divide).

It's clear that the 1988-1996 group are the ones "enforcing the rules of the new order." Or, at least, they're by far the most enthusiastic about it.

I hate the new order. What do I do about it? Every solution being proposed to this mess are things I hate.

Isn't the 'new order' not established until the 1T? We may not yet even know what the new order is yet. If we still have the rest of this decade (2020s) in a 4T, then there is still plenty of time for new norms to be established. I think given we are still in the pandemic, it is too early for a new order to be in place that will stick. We'll see once the pandemic is over how much of a new order in society we really have. I thought for instance that remote work was going to stick around as a permanent thing only to see many offices requiring people back on-site now (just with a vaccine in them + maybe masks for now). Society still seems to be trying to revert to pre-pandemic conventions even in instances where the new option is easier or higher quality. Remote work also allows less pollution from commuting, which ties into the other big issue we have: climate change.

George Monbiot has been describing a search for a new "narrative" that would provide guidance and motivation for a new order or new direction of society. Whether this comes in a 4T or a 1T he doesn't say, but it's clear we haven't quite found it yet. We are using old policies to meet our needs, and they are stale and unworkable now. He contrasts this with the Keynesian narrative from the 1930s and neoliberalism from the 1980s that provided the older narratives. He says that these stories or directions for society is based on the timeless narrative of the hero's journey, similar to what Joseph Campbell described. He calls it the restoration story. It is a universal story, with a common structure, but the contents change in order to meet the times. He describes this process in this TED talk.





Another explanation here: https://youtu.be/ARiaiyHrijw

Another version: https://youtu.be/jjiRUP6TWhk

This is my attempt: https://philosopherswheel.com/politics-a...0narrative  The ecological principle seems to me a basis for the new order and new story developing.

Aspie's restoration story is mentioned too, and that goes back 2000 years: the Bible story or the Jesus story. For many of us though, that story also is too old and doesn't meet the needs of the time. The religious right that Aspie upholds is what many in Dixie and from older generations uphold as the needed restoration, and this story has already been told in the 1980s as part of the neoliberal story from Reagan's time, but it is largely not being accepted by his millennial generation. But something similar, a restoration of belonging, is part of what Monbiot describes.

The restoration of spirituality is part of what I think a new order needs, and many Boomers sought to provide this. But further development of that aspect of a new order will have to wait until the next prophets arrive. But meanwhile the restoration of the value of life and our interdependence on Nature and each other, as a model for organizing society, is what today's generations might agree upon as climate change and pandemics continue to spread disorder across the land.

I don't think it has to wait for the new prophets to arrive. People in my generation who agree with me can get our spiritual needs met by living separately from the majority and cutting ourselves off from them. I don't see the point of waiting because by the time change happens I will be old or dead. Being around too many atheists or agnostics is bad for your relationship with God so anyone who insults my religion isn't worth being around IMO.

Further development of that aspect of a new order will have to wait until the next prophets arrive. But "new order" here refers to a majority consensus and shapes the predominant movements in society, especially political, economic and cultural/social ones. You can continue to pursue and develop your religion and relationship to God among your minority of believers, but you can't hope for it to become part of a restoration narrative during this 4T.

Your more restrictive, doctrinaire, dogmatic approach to religion, especially one able to be imposed upon others, at the expense of democracy, may never be the majority consensus narrative or worldview again in The West or most of the Orient. But that does not mean at all that spirituality won't assume a greater role and position in culture and society than it has now within today's predominantly secular, pro-scientific society of millennials and the fourth turning. Spirituality and even relationship with God is not limited to the sort of religion that you believe in.