06-05-2018, 03:05 AM
(06-05-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Maybe it's our different ages, but I thought the phony war against Afghanistan (phony I think largely because the USA did not really fight a war there, at least until 10 years later) and the phony war against Iraq (phony because it was totally unnecessary and based entirely on lies), were NOTHING MORE than just a return to the same old military industrial complex activity that we had been stuck in since Pearl Harbor. It was simply more fall out from Pearl Harbor, rather than from 9-11 itself. It was just an excuse for more limited and phony wars that USA had been dragged into since WWII ended, with America having become the world's policeman.
It is somewhat subjective on our part, at least in your case, but only because 9-11 is an event that happened when you were about 22, and the years between then and the end of the Cold War when you were 10 or so seemed shorter to us than to you. But it had been only 10 years since the previous mis-adventure against Iraq, and that's really nothing. We boomers were mostly against all this; we were the ones who continued to march and protest against these phony wars ever since Vietnam. If we were a subjective generation, that didn't stop us from being the ones who could see through all the lies.
I certainly don't see any "massive changes in society" as a result of 9-11. Whatever changes there were, have been or will be rolled back. Not many are really affected by NSA spying or airport screening, as disturbing as these might be. And just because Trump has succeeded in stirring up prejudice against Muslims, does not mean it was a necessary change that will linger much beyond his mis-administration. Even Bush originally spoke up against it. Now there is an alternative current AGAINST prejudice that is stirring in this country now to push back against Trumpism. Even if there were big "changes" in society after 9-11 (which I deny), they were entirely reactionary and regressive; so if this is what you call a massive change, it's a departure from any previous 4T, because "change" in previous 4Ts has always been progressive.
And the Bush preventive war foreign policy that began in Iraq in 2003 has been repudiated by everyone. Protests and polemics were loud and unceasing in every intelligent sector of society after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. There was anything but a national unity of consensus behind these phony wars. On the contrary, the culture wars, the name of our 3T, continued and heated up anyway, and decided the 2004 election. Low level, ongoing war has been the constant trait of this saeculum, and so it continues. These are among the reasons I have always been strongly against the idea that 9-11 started or was part of a crisis mood or fourth turning.
None of that takes away from the traumatic and catastrophic tragedy of 9-11 itself. I agree with you about that, Sir Nomad. It was a major event in USA history, and I knew it was coming too. But, the response to it was not of a 4T nature. And the response merely made the tragedy much worse.
I agree with much of this. As many times in internet exchange, some say the same things as others but in different ways.
I said previously a few times America got hijacked with Military Industry after the cold war began. Even an outgoing president warned of it in specific terms that we not get swept away in such a new way of life. Hyper-consumerism came at right around the same time. It is these two things (the concept of making wealth on the dead in war AND on a more and more isolated consumer from the "vendor"). I have said these are the fruits of the prophet generation............ even though you and others claim you all were against it even up until (shockingly) the 911 wars. I simply do not see it.
Prophets protested vietnam because they did not want to die. But as they grew up, they were the ones escalating hyper-capitalism, alienating businesses from consumers, fomenting war through becoming the heads of the Corporations benefiting from those wars, etc. This really is not about me trying to blame anyone. It is about WTF happened to America in those pivotal years after WWII and before JFK's killing? I keep saying there's a dark presence in America since that time and I have explained (in a simple way) what I believe that darkness IS. How it can be stopped is unknown except that a wave of individuals with a moral compass is needed.
Now, how this extends to 911. The dark shit going on behind the scenes still very much exists. And for some reason, the first people to not want to believe that is the prophet. Again, the prophet is a malfunction. I never said dick cheney blew up the World Trade Center. But to believe and accept there was not 911 collusion with the purpose of manifesting a mass suppression of the American State to achieve legislative and nationalistic ideals is naive. To say the dominant prophet of 2001 were not the people putting flags on the side of their homes and cars, calling into radio shows using overt racist terms against muslims, and who were (probably) those who DID listen to Bush II who advised them to "keep spending" ran to the mall and bought anything with a Made In America Logo is also naive.
You say the prophet was protesting? The government - full mostly with prophets - went to sleep. I do not remember swaths of marchers on the national mall saying the war was a lie. I remember none of that. None of that was on TV, none of it was in the neighborhood, people were very afraid to even voice that opinion due to the massive backlash of - again, the prophet - who loves to take sides. They love to take sides SO badly, they were offered unity with each other to take a side against any nation they perceived as "muslim" (where, there is no such thing as a MUSLIM NATION just like there is no such thing as a CHRISTIAN AMERICA). So, those conflicts were accomplished on the back of not only lies from behind the scenes but through the natural and fundamental article of the prophet archetype which is "fight for your ideals at all cost and till your last breath".
It would take me a while to even sit here and list out all the ways America changed after 911. But, in conjunction with the 2008 robbery, I think a better picture may enlighten that. You say "oh it was just a war like the others before it". But other than pearl harbor (which is actually not a U.S. state... it's so far away) we have never been attacked on our own soil. And certainly not Avengers Style with debris falling from the sky in a place like New York City. You say changes after 911 were reactionary and regressive, I say they were planned and executed perfectly - where, shockingly, the ideology and even prolly most of the strategy - was already on the books and was being discussed even before the event happened. That's the opposite of reactionary.
You say the 911 wars were repudiated? I'm laughing. Not the lol, but actually laughing. It was ILLEGAL to protest those wars. Obama "repudiated" the action against Iraq as a Senator and that tape haunted everything for him UNTIL the general populace caught up with the "repudiation" idea. No one but stray characters were repudiating anything. They were too busy spray painting everything red white and blue and screaming about how Sharia Law was coming and we need to ban the hijab. Are you even serious, friend? Were you in the United States at that time? I live in THE most liberal places in America and I gave my testimony how my "patriotism" was used as a ploy at my job when they lined us all up in the parking lot to be filmed singing the national anthem for the news that night. We weren't told any of that was happening. And that's a perfect example of America in general at that time. Suddenly, literally the same day or the day after, everyone flew a flag, everyone was bonding with their neighbors over a shared enemy, everyone was a potential bomber at the airport, Americans vanished to secret prisons to be interrogated.............. no one was prepared. It was a ROLL OUT waiting to be enacted.
The Star Wars prequels offered us Order 66 when one moment the troopers were our protectors, then a moment later they are killing Jedi.
You KNEW 911 was coming? Please expound! And don't make us wait!
I never said 911 was itself a Crisis. I said the wars and legislation that came from it combined with the 2008 theft may have been the Crisis. At least to my mind, there was a strange 10 years thereabouts between the event of 911 and the economic crisis. If what I am saying is right, this is not 3 or 8 things, it's a whole bunch of things which taken together could really be the Crisis we are all looking for.
When I'm thinking about how you sort of flippantly describe the 911 wars as "just another MIC scenario" I would more think of Iraq I as that. It was a war. It was about oil. But it was nothing really impacting America... in fact, that president lost the 2nd term hard. Bush II won in a mandate which he continually referred to as "political capital" he intended to spend which meant more war. So, to say everyone was protesting and repudiating, he filled a 2nd term over such a thing. The surrounding cabinet were filled with even more horrible people than the first cabinet and the congress was peeing themselves for fear of a modern McCarthy hearing over non-patriotism. Non one was ALLOWED to repudiate post 911 actions. It meant political doom. The words I can use to describe how the general populace was acting as simply scared shitless.
I do understand it is too much for people to often accept right away that something horrible has happened and that it may have had connections to unseen powers. But what if the House Committee on Assassinations had been able to access al the JFK records in the 1970s? What if they had been able to ask the right questions and act prosecutorially on guilty parties? I keep talking about getting ahead of these ageless scams... but we never do. Because AGAIN it's mainly the problem prophet who fights everyone over inanities but will never accept that Daddybear in the white house or the cronies in the Lobby Pit could ever plot against them.
Well god bless those wonderful chosen children born in a high who foreigners eloquently observed maintained full control over their parents. It's SO all about them, we have to believe 3 separate "angry lone nuts" killed a president, a civil rights leader and a future president (brother of the first one) within the span of 5 years! Because to them, no one EXCEPT an "angry lone nut" could possibly do something like that. Their mind cannot handle it. They grew up in a time when dad never talked about work because it might frighten them to know LIFE ACTUALLY INVOLVES RISK and mom was there 24/7 to ensure their bad dream was quelled with warm milk and a cookie.
Again, we find ourselves living in the PROPHET'S DREAM. Gulf of Tonkin? Real. But, fake. Oswald's magic bullet? TOTALLY real. But, also fake. A guy with the same last name as a first name doesn't remember shooting RFK... but guilty. Manchurian Candidate was in theaters 6 years earlier. Some strange southern hick shoots down MLK because OF COURSE racism. GUILTY. It happens once, maybe. It happens twice, huh? It happens 3 times? PROPHET SAYS THEY BELIEVE. So the rest of us are chained to their dream.
To spin around, what happened to America over the last 80 years or so has left us in a desperate place. If we only had the will to identify and battle the secret plots that are almost ALWAYS about exploiting the average joe, if we don't have to wait 50 years for information to get released until everyone involved is dead, we could make progress. 911 it is too soon to even say there was some under-handed connections. People here in this forum are still defying physics with "pancake" theories. It's too soon. But what happened in the last decade or so will have enormous impact on America in the century to come. If we admit something really bad happened and festered after WWII that disenfranchised many and laid out a really bad blueprint for our future, then WHEN can we start getting ahead of these things as they happen?
Is it even possible? I can see rump starting a war and it happening and people saying "no" but it happens anyway. I can see that. I can also see the opposite. Because at least for me, these kind of things I talk about like hyper-capitalism and wealth over corpses cannot be stopped by lawful regulation but with a combo of that and actual non-psychotic individuals who roll over the average American without any morality whatsoever. No one can regulate morality. It must be pre-present. I am hoping the new Heroes are this, I see signs it may be. I'm tired of blaming prophets, it does no good. I just wish they would learn. Learn ANYTHING. However, I know boomers well enough that with each passing moment their ideals become more solidified and utterly resistant to change on any level.