Wheels within wheels.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-16-2017, 12:33 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Classical liberals maintain that property is a personal and individual liberty.  That it can be obtained by anyone regardless their class, and historically speaking in America they usually can.  As such it is possible for the proletariat to have a stake in the system.  This is why Marxism was completely short-circuited in the US.

In Western Europe, social democracy created governmental programs to give an economic stake to the proletariat.  In short their bourgeoisie adapted.


So by whatever rationalization you make, you have thrown over the Marxism you believed in a few years ago, and now embrace the opposite: classical liberalism.

There are materialist Marxists and idealist Marxists. I would agree most are materialists, but not all. And now you claim they can adapt and be bourgeois classical liberals. Marx apparently means nothing to you anymore.

His meaning for history is that he championed the working class. Although conditions have changed, it's still the case that capitalist bosses oppress and abuse the people, and that politics and unions are needed to counter-act this. And some today advocate employee ownership, which is worker ownership of the means of production. And periodically, Marxist revolutionary movements still happen.

In any case, historically, Marx is still important as a prophet of the realization that capitalist bosses can not be allowed to abuse the people in the name of their own "freedom." By embracing classical liberalism, YOU now think that the common working people should be abused by the capitalist pigs, and you call this "individual freedom." They are still just as much pigs as they ever were, and you now close your eyes and support them fanatically by supporting their leaders and agents. Shame, shame on you.

Quote:Rags: Surprisingly, both Marxists and real capitalists as opposed to oligarchs agree that rent seeking is evil. Rent seeking is a feature, not a bug in the US economy. Eric, it's our shitty assed oligarchs and their whores in government that are part of this problem we have.

Quote:There was no such stupid course at my school. But I studied Marx in my philosophy class in college.

Then you must have learned nothing in that class and therefore wasted your (or someone's) money.  Marx said himself his philosophical works were materialist in nature, it was said about him, indeed the whole of Marxist literature is replete with exhortations against philosophical idealism. 

I know Marx was a materialist in his later life, and many Marxists still are. That's why I put him where I did on my philosophy wheel. But you also claimed that adaptations have been made to Marxism. Some have dropped his materialism too, and gone back to his younger philosophy.





EtINo, physical science proves we are all connected to the environment.

Quote:Physical science only proves that living organisms are dependent upon the environment to which they have evolved to live in. 

Outer space is an environment but should one venture out into without the benefit of a self-contained pressurized vehicle or suit one will die in seconds is not milliseconds.  Conversely there are bacteria that have evolved to live in the hot springs and mud pots of of Yellowstone National Park but put them into water of a temperature we'd find comfortable and of an acidity we'd like and they will die.

No, it's an interdependent relationship. That's what ecology is. As I stated, human beings and living things are not separate beings; science proves it. You deny science.

Quote:

EtI Wrote:If we are connected, we cannot be separate. That's a contradiction.

If we are connected then sending me a telepathic message should require less energy than posting on the forum.  You need merely think the message instead of having to type it out one a key board.  No muscle contractions required so that should save you a few joules of energy.

The way to understand that you are connected to all, is merely to experience it. Take a look at yourself. Telepathy only proves communication.

I sent you a message already.

Quote:

EtI Wrote:If classical liberalism opposes strong or big government, that does not mean it favors big state government. It doesn't.

I'm not the spokesman for Classical Liberalism.  However, the Classical Liberals I know, and the ones that do the most talking think the government needs to be large enough to ensure my neighbor neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. 

In the context of the US that means apart from things that are clearly the province of the Federal Government (IE Enumerated Powers) those things that people may wish for government to do are the province of the States or the Local Governments.  These United States are and always have been a federation of states rather than a unitary republic.

Quote:Eric:
Baloney. The need is clear for government at all levels to keep the greedy bosses from "picking our pockets." That is what the EPA does, protect us from the bosses; which Drump and classical liberals in congress are abolishing. Shame on you for opposing the need to control the bosses, require them to pay living wages, treat their workers fairly, offer safe products, keep from ruining the economy through speculation, and keep them from polluting our world. By being a classical liberal, you wish the bosses to have "freedom" to do these things to us. That is what Drump and the classical liberals in congress are doing to us. You worked for this, you voted for this.

I agree with this. Here's the Democratic party's problem. They like all of those illegal aiens and SJW's. How about tossing those and supporting the working class.  I also wonder to no end how any environmentalist can support immigration.  

1. Population overshoot is the ultimate ponzi scheme.
2. The Democratic Neoliberals [third way].   How stupid. Don't they know that growth for growth's sake is the philosophy is that of a cancer cell. Republicans all like "groaf".

Let's play a mind game.  Let's say some funky virus called the Okie virus exists. It infects only folks in California. Half of the population gets their brains rewired such that they get it in their mind they must move to Oklahoma. Notice that's a Neoliberal result for Oklahoma.  Just look at all of that growth in Oklahoma! I'm sure the chamber of Commerce here would be excited too no end along with developers. The problem of course Oklahoma City would mushroom in size to match Houston and Tulsa would match Dallas.. So there's the downside right there. Lots of infrastructure, schools, police, fire departments, pollution, and most likely a horrible water shortage.
I rather doubt the lifestyle of those of us here would improve at all and we'd have lots of unwanted headaches.
That my friends is what rampant immigration does to the US.  I also have a 2T ideology of course. Zero population growth is a good thing for the environment and lifestyles for those of us here.  Of course ZPG is despised by Neoliberals because it's a no growth ideology.

Quote:In short because one or two people hold office in the 1T and they just happen to be Boomers doesn't mean much.  During the 1T I expect X to hold the Presidency, the House definitely (they already do) and the Senate.  Depending on how many seats open up in the next 8 years they may even be the majority on the SCOTUS bench too.

That's quite an influence. And there's more than one or two Silent Senators today.  The next crop of Idealists will probably have more cranky Xer's than Boomers had Losts. I sorta feel sorry for them   Imagine some young Idealist contending with some old replica of Vandal.

Quote:

EtI Wrote:Your opinion about these leaders has no bearing on that point at all.

Actually those are not just my opinions but rather the power dynamics in the Senate.  I know Dianne Feinstein might seem important to you being a Commiefornian, but she's one voice out of a hundred to everyone else.  She might be a ranking member on a committee somewhere but otherwise her powers as a senator are limited.

John McCain may seem important cause the Fake News Media (CNN, MSNBC and the like) love to talk to him, but even in Arizona he is a joke.  Personally I think they keep re-electing him because he usually runs in off years and turn out is low.

Ugh.  John McStain.  I despise NeoCONS because they promote wars for no damned good reason. Drump needs to get rid of Revolton.  He's an idiot. NeoCONS never learn. They've won 0 wars, killed millions, strewn refugees all over, and spent something like 4 trillion dollars for their "cause". They are a cabal of illogial Boomers. Little wonder Xer's have a thing for Boomers. We need some more in tune Boomers instead of the current set of the blinded by ideology ones we have now.
I also think we need to stop Neoliberalism. It's inconsistent with resilience.  Just think that a natural disaster can offline some part of those long supply chains.  It's also inconsistent with political stability since labor is just another input to minimize cost on. Never mind its insistence on growth for growth's sake.