The Partisan Divide on Issues

[pbrower2a]

(02-18-2020, 05:08 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 02:40 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-18-2020, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: The primary process is starting to look like a circular firing squad. First, they winnow the field in two remarkably unrepresentative states. To aid in this selection, several shoot-from-the-hip debates are held, each with a cast of thousands. No one gets to stand out, so it’s open to media hype more is typical. So far, there is a rotating cast of characters keeping the process media friendly. 

I hope you’re right and the next two contests start to focus on a final candidate, but I’m skeptical. With Mike Bloomberg out there, this could go all the way to the convention. That doesn’t bode well for the party of cats.

It must suck having Bloomberg in the mix today. I mean Bloomberg represents everything about the elites that you guys claim to hate. I mean, an actual oligarch running to be your president who has the money to buy and influence every politician/lawmakers on your side with the exception of Bernie maybe.

I do not remember seeing you complain that Donald Trump was in the political mix in 2016. This man offended plenty of conservative sensibilities between his sexual conduct, his serial divorces, his predatory character as a businessman, and his contempt for formal learning. With Trump we have someone who lives for his indulgence, self-esteem, and his image. He believes in nothing but himself. 

If it takes an oligarch to get America on the right track, then so be it. FDR was an outright patrician, which is far better than being a poltroon like Trump. FDR wanted to save the system from its worst tendencies -- and that is exactly what he did.

Dude, I've never been an Evangelical voter. You should know that the stuff about Trump's past doesn't matter to an American voter like me. You should also know that the silly/ petty stuff Trump tweets and entertains himself with from time to time doesn't matter to me either. You should also know that I didn't believe/buy in Mueller/Trump-Russia collusion stuff to begin with like you and everyone on the liberal side either swallowed as gospel or latched on and promoted as the truth either. So, you going to get on Mike's ship and go down with him. Or, are you going to stick with Bernie and pray you don't need any healthcare during the rough transition period as liberals learn another hard lesson about American life and all the freedoms that are attached to it these days. You and most liberals don't seem to learn much from the hard lessons that been given to the liberals lately. Trump believes in us and that's all he has to believe in these days because we've already shown the pesky Republicans what we are willing to do about them and how easy it is for us to let go of them and basically move them to the liberal side these days. So, I assume that democracy must not matter as much to liberals as they claim now that Bloomberg has been obliged and allowed to buy his way into the democratic process unlike Trump. As I recall, Trump was in the Democratic process from the start unlike Bloomberg who needed some rule changes and so forth to enter at this point as a Democratic candidate. I don't know why you are preaching to me and blaming us for all the stuff that we can clearly see that's obviously going on with the Democratic party before your own eyes these days.

Dude, I am just as American as you are. Indeed I am as American as First Peoples of what would become the United States, descendants of the passengers who disembarked the Mayflower in 1620, of Spaniards who settled in what would become Florida, Texas, Colorado, Arizona, or California before there was a United States of America -- or people brought here to be slaves. .  But I am no more American that a son of two illegal aliens or a naturalized US citizen. I also recognize that I am no less American that people with a religious tradition unlike mine. Let me make this abundantly clear: being an American does not define what one believes. Relatively few people leave blatant questions about being American. 

To no longer be an American requires that one renounce US citizenship, whether for benign reasons (did Meghan Markle renounce US citizenship to marry into the British royal family?) or adopting Canadian or British citizenship in a desire to wage war against Satan Incarnate before 1942 (so that one would be a lawful combatant) or evil ones (joining a criminal, terrorist, totalitarian movement such as ISIS. OK, so my musical tastes are clearly un-American (my CD collection reeks "Central European"). Need I love country music to be an American?  

Something is not good or evil because it is American. Should a tornado pick me up and smash me into a brick building, killing me, then that tornado is American. I may not be the sort of person who gets bitten by a rattlesnake (most who are bitten are drunk at the time and are bitten on their hands or face and not the feet or lower legs as one might expect if rattlers largely bit people who work outside or do outside recreation). Any rattlesnake that I am likely to see in America (rattlers are as afraid of me for my heavy tread or the fangs of any canine companion as I am of them) is American. I am in practice more likely to encounter rabid wildlife or an angry moose or deer than a rattlesnake. That deer or moose (or such a large carnivore as a bear, cougar, or dog) is American, too. (Don't believe me about dogs being lethal? One of the best simulations of the danger of the Sundarbans, a swamp in the Ganges delta in which man-eating tigers lurk, is to break into a dog-infested house. Dogs are built much like tigers... and attack as one giant predator if in a group).  

I disagree with you on what the Mueller probe showed. Mueller put together a strong case that makes me believe that President Trump at the least is a fellow traveler of the dictatorial Russian Federation.  The military, CIA, or FBI would prosecute him if he were such a fellow traveler of a country hostile to American democracy and foreign policy.

Let's look at  John Bolton, a reactionary piece of work whom I do not fully trust. This man may be a warmonger, but he knows lines not to cross. War-mongering is legal in America, but blackmailing an ally or complicity in potential war crimes is not. John Bolton called the deal that President Trump tried  to foist upon President Zelensky of Ukraine a "drug deal" -- something easy to do, but extremely unwise. Bolton has no desire to face the Hague tribunal for war crimes (which includes threatening to destroy cultural sites of another country) or the American legal system for complicity in Trump misdeeds. He may be no hero, but neither is he a fool.

Considering the threat that Donald Trump poses upon American democracy, his opposition would have to be egregious in the extreme to cause me to vote for him. 

If there are any  lessons that we liberals can glean from Donald Trump, those include:

that character is cause of behavior, for good or ill
that amoral and immoral people do great harm when in charge of great enterprises
that even American democracy is shaky should a sociopath become President
that the Founding Fathers got much right (except on slavery and male supremacy) that Trump has gotten very wrong
that hollow people like Trump are unfit to wield the awesome power of the Presidency
that people who dissent with evil deeds of the political leaderships exercise the purest patriotism 
that, given a choice between truth and ideology, that truth is preferable 
that demagoguery might work to win elections but it makes horrid social policy

I am sure that Bob Butler, David Horn, or Eric the Green could pile on upon your folly.

How bad is Trump? As I see it, the next conservative President that America elects who proves to be any good will act much more like Barack Obama than like Donald Trump. Obama is cogent, ethical, and wise.