Who Can Beat Trump?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-07-2018, 01:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-06-2018, 03:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-05-2018, 03:08 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-04-2018, 10:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The day the blues stop looking backwards for solutions relating to the modern day and stop clinging to beliefs and values associated with the past during the height of the old Democratic party.

?

To me, Conservative means a desire to cling to old values, not change.  Progressive means to adapt new values, to change.  For example conservative in global warming is to deny the greenhouse effect and continue to release pollutants.  To be progressive is to stop releasing them.  To be conservative in the late Gilded Age was to continue without workplace safety, child labor or work hour protections, while being Progressive was to enact laws addressing the issues.  In war, conservative in one era was to maintain isolationism, to strive not to embroil oneself in European Conflicts.  It later meant to cling to being a world power, to cling to FDR's policies of being strong and acting abroad.  Too be progressive is to adapt the culture to the future, to recognize that as technology changes it should be recognized and laws change to adapt, while being conservative sees the values of the past, especially old power structures are allowed to keep past ways of making profits.

I think you are confused, have it backwards of the usual understanding.  What exactly do you mean here?

You and I have had an issue with understanding one another  for a LONG time. Where did you get that understanding from? Your understanding of conservatives is primarily based on what? It wasn't  based on me, my views, my opinion of the current progressives, my understanding of the progressives or our direct communications with each other.

I think my definition is dictionary.  Common.  I can't be much clearer than above.

However, progressives progress.  A progressive of the US Civil War will be different from a progressive of the late Gilded Age, will be different from a New Deal Progressive, who is different from a Consciousness Revolution progressive, etc...  If you assume all progressives share issue and positions across vastly different times, you will be dwelling on a straw man.  The uniting principles have to be very broad for that, such as favoring human rights, equality and democracy.

Establishment conservatives generally drag their feet, advocating slavery around the Civil War, pushing isolationism before WW II, the domino effect around Vietnam, always favoring the way the current ruling elites profit, etc...  They often favor the values the progressives set in stone in the prior set of turnings.  Their clock tends to run slow.

But that often is not a good description of the roots.  The very rich establishment conservatives cannot be the party alone.  There are too few of them.  Many down home people will follow the Establishment with ideas like small government, or what is good for General Motors is good for the country, or taxes are bad.  Often these ideas have merit, are not totally dumb, but they often have to pass though the conservative establishment to get implemented.  I don't see your flavor of conservatism as establishment.  I do see a large gap between the red establishment and, say, the Tea Party.

Mostly, to address a bunch of people, I have to address a main stream.  There are odd ball conservatives, with odd ideas, and taking some of these odd straw men and ad hominims seriously is hard.  When I address ideas that are commonly found in the conservative press, I am not addressing the oddball conservatives with their off ideas here.  This puts off the odd balls for some reason.  They expect me to take them seriously, to ignore the many and address the odd guy.

Uniting principles have to broader than those of the blues/progressives these days. A simpleton red might follow an idea like small government as government continues to grow and become more powerful and less interested in serving of the interests of those who elected them like a blue simpleton might follow an idea like big government and helps it grow and become more powerful and eliminates a few long standing American rights that big government views as no longer being necessary or views as no longer being applicable to certain people or groups.

As general rule, what's good for Ford Motors is good for the country considering the country is getting the bulk of the benefits as far as taxes and employment are concerned.