07-29-2020, 07:49 PM
(07-29-2020, 08:03 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Scientists create systems of ideas like relativity, Marxism or S&H turning theory. Engineers create things that put these ideas into practical use. Being an engineer, I sort of think it a two way street. I tended to take an idea and make it reality.
That idea was entirely contingent upon the social structure on which it was developed, and its execution requires methods of production which are also contingent.
(07-28-2020, 10:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: If you are not involving yourself with the two ideal systems involved in the latest crisis, you are a poor student of turning theory. Marxism was last a viable set of values when the New Deal was a new deal. As the result of Marxist theory as it practically gets put in practice became clear, it became a non starter. Not a factor.Again, Marxism is not a set of ideas to be put into practice. It is a mode of analysis and a method of criticism. Communism is independent of it.
(07-28-2020, 10:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: An impressive foresight of how computers would evolve from a time well before computers. Give Marx a brownie point or two.It puts to bed the notion that Marxist critique is only applicable to a society of factory floor physical laborers. Marx called computers in 1857.
Quote:However, nukes, insurgent conflict and computers have changed the basic pattern of civilization. Notably, violent triggers are rare to nonexistent in major democracies. No revolutions. This kind of changes how cultures improve and was not anticipated by Marx. It renders his whole system obsolete.Yes; as we've seen with the lasting, enduring legacy of Obamacare, legislative change is all we need.
Quote:Not a Bronze Age thinker. The Bronze Age was back in the Agricultural Age, and Marx was definitely an Industrial Age thinker.
Who, as I demonstrated with "Fragment on Machines", anticipated the Information Age. It's still all capitalism, though.
(07-28-2020, 10:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Again, blue is the newer of the two value systems at odds in the current crisis. That statement show you are hopelessly ignorant of the S&H turning approach to viewing history.
Is it really newer than modern conservatism? The concepts behind welfare capitalism predate Keynes. Gladstone was practicing something like it in 1880s Britain. Meanwhile, modern American conservatism is quite distinct from its paleo conservative predecessors and can be localized to the mid-20th century.
(07-28-2020, 10:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It seems he did not anticipate how it would effect the changes in values. Absurdly rare triggers. None observed. No revolutions. This lack of anticipation is not surprising given his time, but renders his whole system obsolete.
Eh? Marx anticipated radical changes in values. From the Manifesto:
Quote:The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his “natural superiors”, and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment”. It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervour, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom – Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.
