02-27-2021, 11:53 AM
(02-27-2021, 05:38 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:(02-26-2021, 01:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Opposites from the thesaurus suggest non-Western, under-educated, agrarian, poor, and un-democratic.
Afghanistan, Yemen or Somalia would be prime examples of a Natural society. They are both highly theocratic and nationalistic. Non-Western WEIRD nations like Japan or South Korea also tend towards free market and lifestyle freedom, although they retain more collectivist values than America or the UK. So did Ancient Romans, though the process was reversed after the fall of the empire.
Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists living in Western societies might qualify as "WEIRD". Esthetic values in the Far East (from what I have seen in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean painting suggest parallels in Western art; Chinese painting is often almost baroque; Japanese painting suggests something like Impressionism, and Korean painting suggests Fauvism). Artistic schools are the least of it.
The three countries that you mentioned as "Natural" society are all Islamic by religion. Could some other religion have retarded modernity at some point, perhaps only to abandon the retardation for economic reasons? The Catholic Church used to be hostile to commerce and repressive of any dissent... but when it found that commerce and science make life better it changed its ways. The well-off farmer or skilled tradesman might put more money into the collection plate.
I see the far East as more conformist than collectivist. Neither China (obvious enough with that political system), South Korea, nor Japan is a good place for a rebellious person. In the advanced industrial world, Japan is arguably the worst place in which to be a criminal. Although Japan has solid protections of freedom of conscience and has a free and competitive political system, it treats criminal offenders much like the PRC treats political offenders. The good thing to say about the Japanese penal system is that some offender who goes into it as an offender has been broken of attitudes that made him an offender. Of course, criminality is not quite WEIRD.
Quote:Not sure what's the causal link. Is this prosperity -> Weird culture as a Marxist would suggest, or Weird culture -> prosperity as neocons would?
Positive feedback. If Marxist economics really worked (and Marxist societies succeed to the extent that they abandon the economic strictures of Marxism-Leninism do) they would likely foster WEIRD culture. Marx is definitely a figure of Western thought. Marxism isn't anti-intellectual by design (contrast fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism which are all hostile to independent learning). Marxism is in part a quest in any rural and agrarian society that undergoes a Marxist takeover to industrialize rapidly. China and Russia were quite poor when the Commies took over, and under Commie rule they became much richer within 70 years than they had been. (It is telling now that the PRC is on the brink of lasting longer than "Soviet Russia" did).
What isn't WEIRD about any society informed upon Marx in politics (even if it has abandoned Marxist economics as has China) is the rejection of democracy. Marxism still has the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and one thing is certain: if one is of proletarian origin and has a role in governing any political system beyond voting in elections, one is no longer part of the proletariat. The dictatorship remains, but it is still not that of, by, or for the proletariat.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.