We Need Militant Nationalism

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-17-2017, 11:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Decisive victory for one side does not need to be violent, as you imply above. As I mentioned, 4T electoral victories have happened, although in one case (Lincoln), the decisive electoral victory itself triggered the civil war. That's possible too.

I'm not even sure the cycles are on track just now.  We may be stuck in the unraveling pendulum.

I do find an echo in Lincoln.  He proposed slavery continue where it exist, but it should be allowed to expand.  The slave owning territory didn't believe it, and treated his comment as if he promised to abolish slavery, which he eventually did do.  In a similar way, Hilary promised to allow folks to keep their guns, but that she would close loopholes much as we often agree.  The reds portrayed that as her advocating a big deal prohibition.

Any way, from another perspective, we may be moving past the Industrial Age.  We might be finding an post scarcity or Information Age pattern.  I kind of like Toynbee's A Study of History, but don't trust that the patterns he found in the Agricultural Age work well in the Industrial Age.  Civilization shifted.  Something similar may be happening now.

(07-17-2017, 11:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: So the two cultures may not be able to live with each other, but one can win electorally and force the loser to stuff it and go along. That's what needs to happen. They cannot find middle ground, especially one in which "both factions get most of what they want."  Compromise is not possible. One culture will need to succeed in pushing its values on the other, at least to the extent that the country moves on into a 1T in which further conflict is put on the back burner for a while. It's happened before in every 4T; why not this time?

I don't feel the pushing of cultures on other cultures wise.  I've certainly seen lots of evidence / examples of folk who don't want to be pushed and others who want to push.  I see 1T highs occurring when one culture has proven its new memes in a crisis, when the culture and government are firmly in the hands of victors.  The way the pendulum is swinging, it is not clear we will have the clear victor.

(07-17-2017, 11:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I suppose if guns and the environment are "culture war issues," then "culture war issues" consist of every issue not obviously an economic issue-- which boils down to how it's doing, or at least (in Reagan's case) to convincing people they are doing well when they are not doing well.

I'm not hung up on what a culture war issue is or is not, though I've got the impression that the economy isn't culture war.  (Is that true?  Is the rural desire for independence, self reliance and freedom part of their values, their culture?)  I'd have no problem with people discussing whether issues are culture war or not.  I perceive guns, abortion and the environment as culture war issues as they involve strong regional values and morality...  culture.  However, I am not apt to get intense if someone has an alternate list of culture war issues.

(07-17-2017, 11:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump could pull the opposite case: his bumbling could convince people the country is suffering from his presidency, even though the economy is doing well for most people (which I'm not convinced that it is anyway). I don't expect the economy to continue doing well during his term, but especially not if he gets his way on anything in the congress.

I can sympathize with the above.  

(07-17-2017, 11:20 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't get your classification of Warren. His perspective is pretty-straight red, especially on the economic issue-- even if articulate and thoughtful.

Oh, he is broadly pretty straight red, but his economic arguments are not common.  What red politicians say to the red base is quite different from what Warren says here.  It's not that he shouldn't say what he is saying, assuming Mike is still around to rebut, but that his giving one perspective should not suggest that one can't argue against the primary red perspective.