50 dead in Orlando gay nightclub shooting

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2016, 04:55 PM)TnT Wrote: Common-sense solution: Ban radical Islamists!

I suppose ... if by "Common-sense" you mean the sort of one-dimensional, superficial, over-simplified kinds of solutions that appeal to sixth grade boys, Trumpistas, and assorted anti-intellectuals.

If you can live with groups of liberals being slaughtered in liberal safe zones, I can live with it too.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2016, 08:53 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 05:44 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 05:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 08:50 AM)Anthony Wrote: We are at war - and like it or not, Islam is the enemy.

Well, no.  There are a lot more muslims out there that are not my enemies than are.  Treating them all like enemies is apt to make more of them into enemies.

I suppose the opposite extreme from spreading hate would be spreading love.  Is it common sense that we should all sing Kumbaya and trade hugs?  That sort of simplistic logic is no better and no worse than your flavor of common sense.

Bingo.

Who's doing that other than the liberals? Aren't liberals able to see there's a major difference between the radicals and the moderates?

Seems to me to be some right wingers lumping them all together. If libs are doing this also they should sing out because currently I have not seen evidence of this.

Who's doing it? Who's treating moderate Islamic's like radical Islamic's? Who's blaming moderate Islam for the actions of radical Islam? Who is accusing moderate Islam of being radical Islam and claiming that they're the same? The liberals don't appear to have a clue as to who is what but seem to want us to place our faith in their values and their judgement. I'm sorry but it would be a cold day in hell before I'd place my faith in the knowledge and the judgement of a liberal.

[Classic-Xer]

(06-21-2016, 10:17 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 09:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 08:53 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 05:44 PM)taramarie Wrote: Bingo.

Who's doing that other than the liberals? Aren't liberals able to see there's a major difference between the radicals and the moderates?

Seems to me to be some right wingers lumping them all together. If libs are doing this also they should sing out because currently I have not seen evidence of this.

Who's doing it? Who's treating moderate Islamic's like radical Islamic's? Who's blaming moderate Islam for the actions of radical Islam? Who is accusing moderate Islam of being radical Islam and claiming that they're the same? The liberals don't appear to have a clue as to who is what but seem to want us to place our faith in their values and their judgement. I'm sorry but it would be a cold day in hell before I'd place my faith in the knowledge and the judgement of a liberal.

are you living under a rock or something? I cannot help you if you cannot already see it. Clearly you would not listen as you are already biased. Not wasting my time.

Nope, I've been living above ground within America for almost 50 years. I'm familiar with radical Islam. Americans are familiar with radical Islam. America has had issues with various groups of them for many decades. My first experience with radical Islam occurred during the late 70's when a group seized an embassy located in Tehran. I remember when an associated group blew up a barracks full of peace keepers n Beirut that killed a few hundred US Marines. I've experienced several terrorist attacks over the years. The vast Americans understand that there is a difference between the Muslims who are into radical Islam and those who are not. America isn't calling for the death of Islam and the complete extermination of Islam. I'm not biased. I'm just not dumb or foolish when it comes to an issue relating to a very well KNOWN threats.

[Eric the Green]

(06-21-2016, 08:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 05:44 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 05:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 08:50 AM)Anthony Wrote: We are at war - and like it or not, Islam is the enemy.

Well, no.  There are a lot more muslims out there that are not my enemies than are.  Treating them all like enemies is apt to make more of them into enemies.

I suppose the opposite extreme from spreading hate would be spreading love.  Is it common sense that we should all sing Kumbaya and trade hugs?  That sort of simplistic logic is no better and no worse than your flavor of common sense.

Bingo.

Who's doing that other than the liberals? Aren't liberals able to see there's a major difference between the radicals and the moderates?

I was not aware that Anthony considers himself a liberal.

[Eric the Green]

(06-21-2016, 07:40 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: Problem: A radical Islamist kills 50 gay Americans with an AR-15.

Knee-jerk radical's solution: Ban AR-15s.

Fundamentalist bigot's solution: Ban gays.

Common-sense solution: Ban radical Islamists!

Common sense solution: ban AR-15s etc.!
Common sense solution: protect ourselves against terrorists
Problems: prejudice and hatred toward gays and muslims, etc.

[Ragnarök_62]

(06-22-2016, 01:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 07:40 AM)Anthony Wrote: Problem: A radical Islamist kills 50 gay Americans with an AR-15.

Knee-jerk radical's solution: Ban AR-15s.

Fundamentalist bigot's solution: Ban gays.

Common-sense solution: Ban radical Islamists!

Common sense solution: ban AR-15s etc.!
Common sense solution: protect ourselves against terrorists
Problems: prejudice and hatred toward gays and muslims, etc.

Problem: 1st Generation radical Islamist crackpot decides to kill any Americans with a gun. Rags does not use labels, because if you're a legal citizen, you're an American regardless of assorted stupid SJW tags. Current immigration needs to be like it was for my great grand parents within limits. 

1. Start cracking down on employers for hiring illegal aliens.
2. Use drones to harden border security.
3. After current problem of illegal immigration is fixed, then do the path to citizenship thing because shipping back 11 million of whatever illegal aliens is pretty much not doable.

The answer is simpler. 

US out of Middle East.

Bans DO NOT WORK.  The War On Drugs is an abject failure.

[Eric the Green]

(06-22-2016, 08:04 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(06-22-2016, 01:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-21-2016, 07:40 AM)Anthony Wrote: Problem: A radical Islamist kills 50 gay Americans with an AR-15.

Knee-jerk radical's solution: Ban AR-15s.

Fundamentalist bigot's solution: Ban gays.

Common-sense solution: Ban radical Islamists!

Common sense solution: ban AR-15s etc.!
Common sense solution: protect ourselves against terrorists
Problems: prejudice and hatred toward gays and muslims, etc.

Problem: 1st Generation radical Islamist crackpot decides to kill any Americans with a gun. Rags does not use labels, because if you're a legal citizen, you're an American regardless of assorted stupid SJW tags. Current immigration needs to be like it was for my great grand parents within limits. 

1. Start cracking down on employers for hiring illegal aliens.
2. Use drones to harden border security.
3. After current problem of illegal immigration is fixed, then do the path to citizenship thing because shipping back 11 million of whatever illegal aliens is pretty much not doable.

It was an attack on gays and hispanics. So the SJW labels remain essential.

The crackdowns probably won't work. Big business, small business, contractors and farmers need the only folks who do the work.

Drones kill the innocent. Imposing the death penalty for illegal immigration is nothing but terrorism.

We need a path to citizenship NOW, not "when immigration is under control." It's already under control, and immigration reform is part of the solution to illegal immigration, not something to be done "afterward." That's Rubio talking, not the Democrats. The Democrats are the ones who make sense.

Quote:The answer is simpler. 

US out of Middle East.

Bans DO NOT WORK.  The War On Drugs is an abject failure.

Needed solution. Go beyond simple slogans like "bans don't work; war on drugs abject failure" Two different things entirely. Bans can work.

Go beyond simple slogans like "US out of Middle East." Ain't gonna happen (unfortunately!). We have created the mess; we must help to clean it up. And now it's worse than ever. Not only are Syrians on the run from their tyrant, and coming to The West, giving The Donald an excuse to stir up entirely-unrelated fears, but Israel is becoming a tyranny under the right wing, ditching human rights for Israelis and Arabs alike, out of their own unfounded fears. And the USA is too afraid politically or religiously to let the Israelis go on their own, and to stop supporting their terror and tyranny.

So, we're stuck. We can't let go of one tyrant (Israel), we let in another due to our own unnecessary intervention (The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria/The Levant), and a third is resulting in a horrific, deadly genocide we could-have but failed to help prevent (Assad/the former country of Syria). So, we're stuck.

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric Wrote:It was an attack on gays and hispanics. So the SJW labels remain essential.

No they aren't. If the labels are dropped then more people would empathized.  SJW is divisive.

Quote:The crackdowns probably won't work. Big business, small business, contractors and farmers need the only folks who do the work.

Wow, the unemployment rate is 0?  I'd never would have guessed. Of course I don't think it's that way, so fix that with an EITC, extend minimum wage laws to agriculture where they don't exist now, and that should fix the problem.
Either agriculture plays by the same rules as everyone else,  they deserve a chapter 7 bankruptcy.  Also, get rid of those damn subsidies.  Like why the fuck is rice  of all things grown in the desert in California? I'd also strip the current water rights system.  If you grow shit in a desert, the plants need to be cactus. I'm not too worried about that, because global warming's gonna fix that real quick. The water will run out, for sure.  Swami tsunami predicts a flood of folks drinking their own piss after the water runs out.

Quote:Drones kill the innocent. Imposing the death penalty for illegal immigration is nothing but terrorism.

I'm not referring to those kind of drones we're using in our Wars of Choice. I'm talking about spy camera drones.
They kill nobody.

Quote:We need a path to citizenship NOW, not "when immigration is under control." It's already under control, and immigration reform is part of the solution to illegal immigration, not something to be done "afterward." That's Rubio talking, not the Democrats. The Democrats are the ones who make sense.

Nope, bitch slap pampered agriculture, lock down the borders, and then work on path to citizenship. I do not want path to citizenship as an incentive for another wave of illegal immigration. Sorry, the hotel's full. The US isn't even taking care of its own properly.  Contractors who hire illegals are scum and tax cheats. Reputable contractors go through the proper process, pay worker's comp, FUTA, FICA.  

Quote:The answer is simpler. 

US out of Middle East.

Bans DO NOT WORK.  The War On Drugs is an abject failure.

Eric Wrote:Needed solution. Go beyond simple slogans like "bans don't work; war on drugs abject failure" Two different things entirely. Bans can work.

How are the markets for something somebody wants dreadfully different?  NYC in its infinite wisdom has a bunch of cigarette taxes and thus has a black market in that. Bans and even stuff that's taxed to hell go straight to black markets. In fact, I like black markets because they're the American Way.  They're unadulterated free markets that show certain high minded idiot government entities are utter fools.  Al Capone is awesome, man.  He did more to rid the nation of the blight of alcohol prohibition than anyone else.  Don't get me started on his killings.  The US government has killed far, far more innocents than Al Capone.  Hopefully Eric knows it was a bunch of Anti Saloon League nags who drove for prohibition.  Such were fools in a prior era. Lots of folks wanted booze dreadfully and a Mafia arose to satisfy said demand. And... so it is with today's Nicotine Nazis. For Rags, nicotine Uber Alles and that is how I fuck off nicotine taxes. I'm at one with the black market and am damn proud of it. You see Eric, Jonersers are an assorted bunch.  I have the avarice of GenX and the "I deserve it" of Boomers.

Quote:Go beyond simple slogans like "US out of Middle East." Ain't gonna happen (unfortunately!).

You're right and I won't be surprised at all if some terrorist detonates a nuke in DC.

Quote:We have created the mess; we must help to clean it up. And now it's worse than ever.

After all the messes, the West is an incompetent fool. We don't know the tribal relations, we don't know the customs, and the list goes on.

Quote:Not only are Syrians on the run from their tyrant, and coming to The West, giving The Donald an excuse to stir up entirely-unrelated fears,

Putin seems to be doing a good job in getting rid of IS, which is worse than Assad. IMHO of course.

Quote:but Israel is becoming a tyranny under the right wing, ditching human rights for Israelis and Arabs alike, out of their own unfounded fears. And the USA is too afraid politically or religiously to let the Israelis go on their own, and to stop supporting their terror and tyranny.

Now, I agree with that. I think there is a ban that in theory we could have.  I'm all for banning all foreign influence/money for US elections. The penalty I have in mind is to jail foreign agents tossing money for about 20 years and a molasses and feathering for any politician caught taking foreign money.  Such politicians would have to submit to that procedure before appearing in TV ads or debates. That penalty should suffice in deterring the acceptance of foreign money on that side.

Quote:So, we're stuck. We can't let go of one tyrant (Israel), we let in another due to our own unnecessary intervention (The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria/The Levant), and a third is resulting in a horrific, deadly genocide we could-have but failed to help prevent (Assad/the former country of Syria). So, we're stuck.

IS , a made in the US product or Assad.  What you say is true and it presents a Hobbs-an choice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson%27s_choice

[Eric the Green]

(06-22-2016, 11:49 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: No they aren't. If the labels are dropped then more people would empathized.  SJW is divisive.

Empathize with what? The victims of Orlando are victims of prejudice and hate. It must be stopped. We must speak out against it, and for love for all kinds of people; all races, religions, sexes, sexual orientations, etc.. Again, to get to victory, you must win the war. The SJ War. I understand the boredom with these subjects. Fair treatment and "political correctness" (polite consideration) for all groups is not a panacea and will not solve a lot of problems; just prejudice and hate, and discrimination/profiling etc..

Quote:Wow, the unemployment rate is 0?  I'd never would have guessed. Of course I don't think it's that way, so fix that with an EITC, extend minimum wage laws to agriculture where they don't exist now, and that should fix the problem.

True

Quote:Either agriculture plays by the same rules as everyone else,  they deserve a chapter 7 bankruptcy.  Also, get rid of those damn subsidies.  Like why the fuck is rice  of all things grown in the desert in California? I'd also strip the current water rights system.  If you grow shit in a desert, the plants need to be cactus. I'm not too worried about that, because global warming's gonna fix that real quick. The water will run out, for sure.  Swami tsunami predicts a flood of folks drinking their own piss after the water runs out.

The fossil fool barons and their backers created that. Defeat Republicans in the 4T; problem solved; end of story. Subsidies, yes get rid of them. But fix immigration by making it easier; then ag and other businesses can hire the folks that do the work that the complainers like The Donald and his followers would never do anyway, but complain because someone is doing it besides them. Really stupid, isn't it? No, resentment of immigrants legal or otherwise is just a political ploy to deceive the people in order to gain power. But this 3T Nixonoid-Reaganoid tactic will not work in the 4T. The Donald is going down.

Quote:I'm not referring to those kind of drones we're using in our Wars of Choice. I'm talking about spy camera drones.
They kill nobody.

I thought so, but then what do you do once you spot them? Round them up violently? Send them home again? For how long? We already have enough border control; illegal immigration is a trickle anyway. Another political ploy and that's all it fucking is.

Quote:Nope, bitch slap pampered agriculture, lock down the borders, and then work on path to citizenship. I do not want path to citizenship as an incentive for another wave of illegal immigration. Sorry, the hotel's full. The US isn't even taking care of its own properly.  Contractors who hire illegals are scum and tax cheats. Reputable contractors go through the proper process, pay worker's comp, FUTA, FICA.  

Then fix the regular channels before doing the same old things that don't work. Again, the USA not taking care of its own has nothing to do with immigration. Don't fall for the Trumpster's ploys. He is a fraud.

Quote:How are the markets for something somebody wants dreadfully different?  NYC in its infinite wisdom has a bunch of cigarette taxes and thus has a black market in that. Bans and even stuff that's taxed to hell go straight to black markets. In fact, I like black markets because they're the American Way.  They're unadulterated free markets that show certain high minded idiot government entities are utter fools.  Al Capone is awesome, man.  He did more to rid the nation of the blight of alcohol prohibition than anyone else.  Don't get me started on his killings.  The US government has killed far, far more innocents than Al Capone.  Hopefully Eric knows it was a bunch of Anti Saloon League nags who drove for prohibition.  Such were fools in a prior era. Lots of folks wanted booze dreadfully and a Mafia arose to satisfy said demand. And... so it is with today's Nicotine Nazis. For Rags, nicotine Uber Alles and that is how I fuck off nicotine taxes. I'm at one with the black market and am damn proud of it. You see Eric, Jonersers are an assorted bunch.  I have the avarice of GenX and the "I deserve it" of Boomers.

I've explained that over and over. It's tiring. Bans on military weapons are just like bans on military explosives. They work in other countries. People "want" them because of the political propaganda. It's just another slogan. They aren't useful for anything else. Drinks and cigarettes get you high and addict you. Guns like those used at Orlando and Newtown etc. have no purpose other than to kill people in a rage. That's something to stop, not to allow. Assault weapons do not addict anybody. They just get into the wrong hands because we Americans are the stupid ones who allow this. No other developed country does. God looks after fools and drunkards and the United States of America, a famous statesman once said. I hope "He" still does.

You know, people like us have been really patient with the gun nuts and gun apologists for far too long. They complain that cries for gun control bring out extremists that want to ban all guns. Maybe their ridiculous and really cruel resistance to all gun regulations will hurt them in the end. Our side will get so fucking fed up, that we WILL come after them and take their fucking guns away. All of them! And damn whatever happens. The gun nuts may be bringing on what they fear.

Quote:After all the messes, the West is an incompetent fool. We don't know the tribal relations, we don't know the customs, and the list goes on.

Overgeneralizations like that might be understandable among T4T fans. But simple doctrines and simple answers always fail. It's complicated. The USA has done the right things many times, and the wrong things many times. The right people need to be in charge now. That's the Democrats, now.

Quote:Putin seems to be doing a good job in getting rid of IS, which is worse than Assad. IMHO of course.

In my not-so-humble-opinion, Putin is doing diddly nothing about IS. He's not even attacking it; he's attacking the rebels we need to overthrow Assad, who is just as bad. In terms of actual casualties (and refugees), Assad is 100 times worse than the IS.

Quote:Now, I agree with that. I think there is a ban that in theory we could have.  I'm all for banning all foreign influence/money for US elections. The penalty I have in mind is to jail foreign agents tossing money for about 20 years and a molasses and feathering for any politician caught taking foreign money.  Such politicians would have to submit to that procedure before appearing in TV ads or debates. That penalty should suffice in deterring the acceptance of foreign money on that side.

I don't disagree, but it wouldn't solve the problem the USA has with Israel. It's not a financial problem. It's a loyalty/religious problem. Too many fanatics in the USA have got us hooked on Israel. That includes the Democrats. Even Hillary is off target on this; Sanders was better. We just have this thing about Israel, and aren't willing to risk offending the Jewish and Christian fanatics who protect them. Politicians and fanatics alike have the illusion that Israel is some kind of ally, although it does diddly-squat for us and just gets us into horrible trouble. I don't see it breaking.

So, again, we're stuck. We can't let go of one tyrant (Israel), we let in another due to our own unnecessary intervention (The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria/The Levant), and a third is resulting in a horrific, deadly genocide we could-have but failed to help prevent (Assad/the former nation of Syria).

You're right; it's unlikely that any solution or action will work. But some courses of action have a better chance than others.

[Eric the Green]

God bless Susan Collins. I'd rather that Maine elected a liberal Democrat. But that blue state re-elects this center-right legislator because sometimes a centrist can keep things from falling apart, which is where the gun debate is. Compromise is sometimes needed to keep things working. Liberals, of course, understand that a lot more than today's conservatives do, so she tries as best she can.

[Odin]

(06-21-2016, 07:40 AM)Anthony Wrote: Problem: A radical Islamist kills 50 gay Americans with an AR-15.

Knee-jerk radical's solution: Ban AR-15s.

Fundamentalist bigot's solution: Ban gays.

Common-sense solution: Ban radical Islamists!

There is no evidence that Muteen had any actual connections with Islamists, A genuine Islamist would not call out his support 3 different Islamist groups that hate each other. Muteen was a self-hating gay guy who wasn't all right in the head.

[Cynic Hero '86]

Boomer Neoliberals and Neocon Globalists are disgusting. Unlike Odin, who uncritically swallowed all the nonsense offered by boomer globalists. Most Xers and Millies are embracing a new way, similar but different to the old. The younger generations will not fight and die for defending the weak and the pathetic, the motto in the future would be discipline, selection and rule by the optimum leaders.