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(02-04-2021, 06:08 PM)David Horn Wrote: If you're looking for a libertarian solution to the current crisis, keep looking. We're moving into a communitarian period, where 'all for one and one for all' will become increasingly popular, and 'get off my lawn' much less so. We've tried libertarian policies in one form or another for roughly 40 years, and it's finally sinking in. Only the rich and powerful were truly free.
We've never tried libertarian policies, at most just paid lip service to them. Both parties like power too much.
Just because the spirit of the age may be in favor of forcing other people to make sacrifices for the 'common good' at the point of a gun doesn't mean I have to find it any less morally repugnant.
I mean, it's a WAR! If a few Japanese fifth columnists have to sell their property and relocate to a camp then it's just a communitarian solution to the present crisis, right?
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Wow.
Americans either scream tyranny is wonderful because the US has always been a police state or think that the US has the most freedom in the world, but what if the USA used to have freedom and lost it?
If Americans hate freedom then why did Americans fight the British?
If the US was always a police state then why did the founding fathers support free speech, protesting, religious freedom, gun rights, the right to silence, and property rights while opposing warrantless searches, civil forfeiture, torture, and extrajudicial assassinations?
Even if the US never had freedom, does that mean liberty is bad?
Did the US have curfews, NSA wiretapping, checkpoints, forfeiture, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, torture, kill lists, no fly lists, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, FBAR, FATCA, TSA groping, secret FISA courts, redlight cameras, license plate readers, and Jade Helm in 1980?
Did Americans have gun bans, business licenses, Social Security numbers, sales, income, or property taxes in 1890?
Were drugs, alcohol, smoking, gambling, and prostitution illegal in 1880?
Was smoking illegal in 1970?
Americans believe their beloved government overlords are holy gods.
Americans scream schools, roads, and parks could never possibly exist without income taxes.
Americans swear that the government invented telephones and airplanes. Americans insist that their shoes come from government shoe factories.
Did everyone have passports in 1776?
Do you forget how to drive when your driver license expires?
Do Americans think Americans just stood around waiting for FEMA to show up after the San Francisco earthquake in 1906?
Do Americans think that airlines had a vested interest in crashing their own planes before the FAA was established? Do planes still crash now?
Has FDA gotten rid of dangerous drugs?
Could businesses start before SBA existed?
Did Americans just starve to death when there were no food stamps?
SEC regulates stockbrokers, but markets still crash.
EPA regulates the environment, but the EPA pollutes.
https://dailycaller.com/2015/09/15/what-...mas-river/
The USSR was a Socialist utopia, but the Soviet Union was polluted.
https://www.gerdludwig.com/stories/sovie...al-legacy/
Can't the free market run railroads?
Can't the free market run delivery companies?
Americans need to be fanatic about freedom now. Make every conservation about liberty. Make songs, art, and films about freedom.
Tell soldiers and the Gestapo that they are sell-outs and puppets for the elites and traitors against the 99%.
Americans are so enslaved today that after they are groped by TSA and see checkpoints and watch reports about NSA wiretapping that Americans will still insist that anyone who thinks that the US is a police state is a nutjob.
Some patriots are so discouraged about freedom that they will say they have given up warning Americans about tyranny after 35 years, but Americans should NEVER surrender.
Americans do not understand that freedom lost will never be restored.
Outlawing straws would have been unthinkable in 1990, but now straws will never be legal again.
Wake up.
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(02-04-2021, 09:01 PM)mamabug Wrote: (02-04-2021, 06:08 PM)David Horn Wrote: If you're looking for a libertarian solution to the current crisis, keep looking. We're moving into a communitarian period, where 'all for one and one for all' will become increasingly popular, and 'get off my lawn' much less so. We've tried libertarian policies in one form or another for roughly 40 years, and it's finally sinking in. Only the rich and powerful were truly free.
We've never tried libertarian policies, at most just paid lip service to them. Both parties like power too much.
Just because the spirit of the age may be in favor of forcing other people to make sacrifices for the 'common good' at the point of a gun doesn't mean I have to find it any less morally repugnant.
I mean, it's a WAR! If a few Japanese fifth columnists have to sell their property and relocate to a camp then it's just a communitarian solution to the present crisis, right?
The only thing we haven't tried is outright anarchy. And yes, expecting people to sacrifice a little to gain a lot is the soul of communitarianism -- which is the next wave by default. If you don't like it, fight against it. You'll have allies in the 2T. But until then, the built-up inequities in society will have to be expunged and newer era-appropriate policies put in place. There's too much broken not to fully engage, and the blame is the very libertarian 'it's not my problem; you fix it' mentality you're advocating. Wait until things get a little oppressive and try again.
BTW, been down this road.
And give me a break. Using the relocation of the Japanese as an example of what's happening now is similar to the left using slavery for the same purpose. It's disingenuous and you know it.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(02-05-2021, 04:00 AM)random3 Wrote: Wow.
Americans either scream tyranny is wonderful because the US has always been a police state or think that the US has the most freedom in the world, but what if the USA used to have freedom and lost it?
If Americans hate freedom then why did Americans fight the British?
If the US was always a police state then why did the founding fathers support free speech, protesting, religious freedom, gun rights, the right to silence, and property rights while opposing warrantless searches, civil forfeiture, torture, and extrajudicial assassinations?
Even if the US never had freedom, does that mean liberty is bad?
Did the US have curfews, NSA wiretapping, checkpoints, forfeiture, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, torture, kill lists, no fly lists, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, FBAR, FATCA, TSA groping, secret FISA courts, redlight cameras, license plate readers, and Jade Helm in 1980?
Did Americans have gun bans, business licenses, Social Security numbers, sales, income, or property taxes in 1890?
Were drugs, alcohol, smoking, gambling, and prostitution illegal in 1880?
Was smoking illegal in 1970?
Americans believe their beloved government overlords are holy gods.
Americans scream schools, roads, and parks could never possibly exist without income taxes.
Americans swear that the government invented telephones and airplanes. Americans insist that their shoes come from government shoe factories.
Did everyone have passports in 1776?
Do you forget how to drive when your driver license expires?
Do Americans think Americans just stood around waiting for FEMA to show up after the San Francisco earthquake in 1906?
Do Americans think that airlines had a vested interest in crashing their own planes before the FAA was established? Do planes still crash now?
Has FDA gotten rid of dangerous drugs?
Could businesses start before SBA existed?
Did Americans just starve to death when there were no food stamps?
SEC regulates stockbrokers, but markets still crash.
EPA regulates the environment, but the EPA pollutes.
https://dailycaller.com/2015/09/15/what-...mas-river/
The USSR was a Socialist utopia, but the Soviet Union was polluted.
https://www.gerdludwig.com/stories/sovie...al-legacy/
Can't the free market run railroads?
Can't the free market run delivery companies?
Americans need to be fanatic about freedom now. Make every conservation about liberty. Make songs, art, and films about freedom.
Tell soldiers and the Gestapo that they are sell-outs and puppets for the elites and traitors against the 99%.
Americans are so enslaved today that after they are groped by TSA and see checkpoints and watch reports about NSA wiretapping that Americans will still insist that anyone who thinks that the US is a police state is a nutjob.
Some patriots are so discouraged about freedom that they will say they have given up warning Americans about tyranny after 35 years, but Americans should NEVER surrender.
Americans do not understand that freedom lost will never be restored.
Outlawing straws would have been unthinkable in 1990, but now straws will never be legal again.
Wake up.
And indoor smoking bans would have been unthinkable before the 1990s when smokers became society’s new pariahs. This coming from one who was an anti-smoking crusader before it became fashionable. And, plastic straws really aren’t illegal yet. And marijuana has now limited legality in many states. And folks are questioning the wisdom of us resetting our clocks twice a year.
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The elites often win no matter what happens.
The globalists win if drugs and homosexuality are legal because the US will become immoral, but the 1% also gains if drugs and homosexuality are banned because they can fill their private prisons.
The ruling class succeeds if the border is closed because no one can escape, but the elites also benefit if the borders are open because they can flood the country with refugees and immigrants.
The globalists don't mind if they lose money in the short-term from banning car sales, kicking Americans off websites, closing bank accounts, denying tickets, refusing hotel guests, and ending gun sales since the 1% mainly care about control.
The ruling powers don't really care about feminists, queers, negroes, drugs, abortion, welfare, illegal aliens, or global warming because the end goal is to weaken and destroy the country, kill off the 99%, and turn the USA into North Korea where everything is illegal.
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(02-05-2021, 09:30 PM)random3 Wrote: The elites often win no matter what happens.
The globalists win if drugs and homosexuality are legal because the US will become immoral, but the 1% also gains if drugs and homosexuality are banned because they can fill their private prisons.
The ruling class succeeds if the border is closed because no one can escape, but the elites also benefit if the borders are open because they can flood the country with refugees and immigrants.
The globalists don't mind if they lose money in the short-term from banning car sales, kicking Americans off websites, closing bank accounts, denying tickets, refusing hotel guests, and ending gun sales since the 1% mainly care about control.
The ruling powers don't really care about feminists, queers, negroes, drugs, abortion, welfare, illegal aliens, or global warming because the end goal is to weaken and destroy the country, kill off the 99%, and turn the USA into North Korea where everything is illegal.
It's called capitalism, personal morality has always been malleable and subject to material conditions, and the 1% is a very poor way of looking at it - it's a question of relationship to the means of production, not monetary or land wealth
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02-05-2021, 10:04 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2021, 10:10 PM by Eric the Green.)
(02-04-2021, 09:01 PM)mamabug Wrote: (02-04-2021, 06:08 PM)David Horn Wrote: If you're looking for a libertarian solution to the current crisis, keep looking. We're moving into a communitarian period, where 'all for one and one for all' will become increasingly popular, and 'get off my lawn' much less so. We've tried libertarian policies in one form or another for roughly 40 years, and it's finally sinking in. Only the rich and powerful were truly free.
We've never tried libertarian policies, at most just paid lip service to them. Both parties like power too much.
Just because the spirit of the age may be in favor of forcing other people to make sacrifices for the 'common good' at the point of a gun doesn't mean I have to find it any less morally repugnant.
I mean, it's a WAR! If a few Japanese fifth columnists have to sell their property and relocate to a camp then it's just a communitarian solution to the present crisis, right?
We are grossly unready for libertarian policies.
The point of a gun argument is a non-starter whose purpose is to protect the privileged and their wealth.
Laws cannot really be enforced at the point of a gun; it depends on a consensus of the people willing to obey the law. Laws that must be enforced at the point of a gun, but are often violated, are poor laws, and they can be changed by democratic process.
Tax laws, for example. Taxation without representation was not obeyed. But taxes are necessary, and most people know this. Without taxes, there is no government, and we need and want its services: to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. Anarchy is a most attractive political doctrine. But I'm afraid it's too optimistic.
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(02-05-2021, 10:04 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: ... Anarchy is a most attractive political doctrine. But I'm afraid it's too optimistic.
Anarchy is only suitable for angels. We are not angels; the evidence is everywhere.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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Americans are so batshit insane now that Americans scream tyranny is wonderful because laws can easily be enforced.
Americans think anyone who has a badge, gun, robe, costume, crown, or rubber stamp is a holy god, but who knows what is best for you?
Can experts be wrong?
The elites and their useful idiots screamed that the sun revolved around the Earth, but then found out that they were wrong.
The ruling powers say global warming is a fact, but why is there record cold?
The 1% say plastic bags must be banned, but canvas bags spread germs.
The ruling powers said marijuana was dangerous and smoking was safe and now say pot is safe and cigarettes are dangerous.
China said huge families were good and then mandated a one child policy because of overpopulation.
The elites insist watering lawns must be illegal and then say not watering grass is a crime.
Why obey the law if the government and illegal aliens don't?
WTF?
How can Americans who hate freedom look in a mirror today without feeling like disgusting traitors?
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