Biden Pandemic Adviser Calls for Four to Six Week National Lockdown

[HealthyDebate]

Biden Pandemic Adviser Calls for Four to Six Week National Lockdown

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/...r-BB1aXgel

[pbrower2a]

(03-12-2021, 08:37 PM)HealthyDebate Wrote: Biden Pandemic Adviser Calls for Four to Six Week National Lockdown

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/...r-BB1aXgel

Well, now that we have vaccines being rushed into as many arms as possible (thank you, President Biden, for treating COVID-19 like a war), this may not be as necessary as it might have been a year ago. Some states did well and some didn't.  As an example I got my first injection almost a month ago and I found out two things quickly:

1. By being nearly locked-down for a year (with few, and limited breaks) and being masked when in public and of course avoiding crowds, I successfully evaded COVID-19 for at least one year. 

2. The side-effects of the vaccine that I got included chills, muscle aches, and the simulation of shortness of breath as I had never felt before even under exertion, which means that I was vulnerable. 

Had I not taken care, I might not be writing this. I have arranged for cremation upon death.

[upside2]

Wow.

The problems of today could be solved by doing what the government did in the past- NOTHING.

Americans scream FEMA camps are the only solution for natural disasters, but San Francisco recovered from the 1906 earthquake without government help.

Americans insist concentration camps are the only answer to viruses, but the government did nothing about a cholera outbreak in 1832.

Americans say the only possible solutions to deal with illegal immigrants are to build a wall, have warrantless searches, DNA databases, license plate scanners, and build concentration camps, but the US used to have open borders.

Americans say the only solution to recessions is to give billion dollar bailouts to bankers who commit fraud and give welfare to the lazy, but the US recovered from the Panic of 1893 without government action.

The government starts a problem and offers a solution. Why not avoid starting a problem in the first place?

If the government starts a trade war that kills the economy and then offers bailouts, why not just avoid starting a trade war in the first place?

If the government increases the minimum wage and regulations that kill businesses and raise prices and then offers welfare, why not just reduce the minimum wage and regulations?

The government is not a holy god. The government is force.

Why not allow the free market to handle problems?

The private market and charities cannot provide disaster relief?

The free market cannot provide medical care, delivery companies, railroads, airports, schools, fire departments, private mediation, and security companies?

Do your shoes come from government shoe factories?

Can't churches teach morals?

Do you really trust the government to tell you what the truth is?

Does the government spend your money better than you do?

People don't have any personal responsibility?

Can't you move away from people you don't like?

Can't you save money to prepare for downturns?

Can't Americans boycott products with cheap prices instead of begging for a trade war that kills the economy?

Can't Americans quit low paying jobs, learn a skill, move to another city, or start a business instead of thinking a minimum wage will magically make them rich with no unintended consequences?

Is tyranny something that only affects others, but not you?

Are Americans retarded children?

Didn't tyranny kill millions of people in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia?

Think.

[pbrower2a]

upside2 --

your depiction of America hardly describes me.

[upside2]

One way Americans are dealing with the US collapse is by being in a state of denial.

Americans say that the USA doesn't have suicides, alcoholism, drugs, homelessness, illegal immigrants, immorality, Obamacare, wars, debt, church closures, martial law, lockdowns, business shutdowns, nationalized companies, cancelled elections, closed borders, arrests of reporters, lawyers, priests, mandatory fingerprint collection, DUI laws, checkpoints, seatbelt laws, car liability insurance laws, neighborhood watch groups, "get tough on crime" politicians, laws allowing mandatory minimums, IMBRA, 3 strikes laws, curfews, police militarization, teen boot camps, school metal detectors, private prisons, chain gangs, nanny state laws, the Patriot Act, NSA wiretapping, no knock raids, take down notices, no fly lists, terror watch lists, Constitution free zones, stop and frisk, kill switches, National Security Letters, DNA databases, kill lists, FBAR, FATCA, Operation Chokepoint, TSA groping, civil forfeiture, CIA torture, NDAA indefinite detention, secret FISA courts, FEMA camps, laws requiring passports for domestic travel, IRS laws denying passports for tax debts, gun and ammo stockpiles, laws outlawing protesting, Jade Helm, sneak and peek warrants, policing for profit, no refusal blood checkpoints, license plate readers, redlight cameras, speed cameras, FBI facial and voice recognition, tattoo databases, gun bans, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, searches without warrants, CISPA, SOPA, private prison quotas, supermax prisons, FOSTA, sex offender registration laws, and sex offender restriction laws.

Americans scream everything is fine, but their eyes twitch and their hands shake.

Disgusting.

[pbrower2a]

If you think California's three-strikes law is harsh, Michigan has 25-to-life for armed robbery. That's 25 years before any possibility of parole.

That's the same as the penalty for attempted first-degree murder. Of course, every armed robbery is a potential murder.

[upside2]

The USA is a bankrupt warmongering police state, but nothing will change because Americans think everything is just fine.

[pbrower2a]

(03-14-2021, 01:46 AM)upside2 Wrote: The USA is a bankrupt warmongering police state, but nothing will change because Americans think everything is just fine.

Which Americans? Donald Trump has left huge problems behind.

[upside2]

Americans say that Obama paid off the debt, ended the wars, and restored the Bill of Rights.

[pbrower2a]

(03-14-2021, 02:04 AM)upside2 Wrote: Americans say that Obama paid off the debt, ended the wars, and restored the Bill of Rights.

Reported for repetition... absurdity does not count as a valid cause.

[Bob Butler 54]

I have made it a habit to list the crisis problems of late.  No one seems to contradict my personal list explicitly.  COVID has caused a half million deaths and collapsed the economy.  There were big time protests of racism last summer.  Red violence steadily escalated during the Trump years leading to the January 6 insurrection.  Global warming is slower, has not resulted in as obvious a single trigger, but is worth at least an honorable mention and does not lack fire and hurricane catalysts.  If those were just catalysts, I would hate to see the trigger.

These are all on the agenda.  There are other things on the Biden agenda, but none I think have risen to the crisis level?

Is that the right list?  If not, how would anyone change it?

Biden's agenda seems to hit all of the above.  If I complain that the prior administration was oriented to not solve problems, those were the problems I meant.  If you can't fix the economy without beating the bug first, Trump was on the wrong side of all of it.

And yet, here there is a claim that Americans put their heads in the sand.  Over on the Generational Dynamics thread, they are still predicting wars and were recently wailing about civilization's collapse.  Some reds are working themselves up about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head.  It seems a lot of people are not focused on solving what seem to me to be the obvious problems.

Anyone real have a different list?

[pbrower2a]

The End is near -- but not of what you express as doomed. Martha2.

[David Horn]

(03-14-2021, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have made it a habit to list the crisis problems of late.  No one seems to contradict my personal list explicitly.  COVID has caused a half million deaths and collapsed the economy.  There were big time protests of racism last summer.  Red violence steadily escalated during the Trump years leading to the January 6 insurrection.  Global warming is slower, has not resulted in as obvious a single trigger, but is worth at least an honorable mention and does not lack fire and hurricane catalysts.  If those were just catalysts, I would hate to see the trigger.

These are all on the agenda.  There are other things on the Biden agenda, but none I think have risen to the crisis level?

Is that the right list?  If not, how would anyone change it?

Biden's agenda seems to hit all of the above.  If I complain that the prior administration was oriented to not solve problems, those were the problems I meant.  If you can't fix the economy without beating the bug first, Trump was on the wrong side of all of it.

And yet, here there is a claim that Americans put their heads in the sand.  Over on the Generational Dynamics thread, they are still predicting wars and were recently wailing about civilization's collapse.  Some reds are working themselves up about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head.  It seems a lot of people are not focused on solving what seem to me to be the obvious problems.

Anyone real have a different list?

My list and yours overlap, but differ a bit. Here are my 5 must-dos, not that we will actually, you know, do them:

1. COVID.  Clearly the most important in the near term, but it's coming under control, or it will if the "freedom-to-die" crowd will allow it.  Luckily, it appears that the never-vaccers are losing steam.  Let's hope the decline gets the job done without even more misery.
   
2. Global Warming.  This speaks for itself, but it's worth noting that this issue operates by its rules and on its timeline.  That's why I would normally put it first ... that and the degree of seriousness.
   
3. Rising Inequality.  The rate at which this is amassing wealth for the few and penury to many -- all that in the world's wealthiest nation -- shows how quickly we can revert to something akin to Feudalism.  We can control this, but it requires the will to oppose the richest and most powerful among us.
   
4. Paranoia and Conspiracy.  With the arrival of Deep Fakes, the ability of large numbers of otherwise rational people to fall through a rathole just got bigger.  Since this is not limited to the US, I may have to move this up the list in the future.
   
5. Decline of the Commons.  Infrastructure decay is the most obvious example of this, but even the vaunted military is now just another cash cow for the .01% who effectively rule us.  But this isn't limited to physical decay, the phenomenon described in Bowling Alone has only gotten worse.  As social institutions fade, the connection of Americans to one another is bent and finally broken.  This is one the government CAN'T fix.  We need to solve this on the human level.
   

So that's my shortlist.  Other than COVID, we're not making a lot of headway on any of them.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2021, 05:20 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-14-2021, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have made it a habit to list the crisis problems of late.  No one seems to contradict my personal list explicitly.  COVID has caused a half million deaths and collapsed the economy.  There were big time protests of racism last summer.  Red violence steadily escalated during the Trump years leading to the January 6 insurrection.  Global warming is slower, has not resulted in as obvious a single trigger, but is worth at least an honorable mention and does not lack fire and hurricane catalysts.  If those were just catalysts, I would hate to see the trigger.

These are all on the agenda.  There are other things on the Biden agenda, but none I think have risen to the crisis level?

Is that the right list?  If not, how would anyone change it?

Biden's agenda seems to hit all of the above.  If I complain that the prior administration was oriented to not solve problems, those were the problems I meant.  If you can't fix the economy without beating the bug first, Trump was on the wrong side of all of it.

And yet, here there is a claim that Americans put their heads in the sand.  Over on the Generational Dynamics thread, they are still predicting wars and were recently wailing about civilization's collapse.  Some reds are working themselves up about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head.  It seems a lot of people are not focused on solving what seem to me to be the obvious problems.

Anyone real have a different list?

My list and yours overlap, but differ a bit. Here are my 5 must-dos, not that we will actually, you know, do them:

1. COVID.  Clearly the most important in the near term, but it's coming under control, or it will if the "freedom-to-die" crowd will allow it.  Luckily, it appears that the never-vaccers are losing steam.  Let's hope the decline gets the job done without even more misery.
   
2. Global Warming.  This speaks for itself, but it's worth noting that this issue operates by its rules and on its timeline.  That's why I would normally put it first ... that and the degree of seriousness.
   
3. Rising Inequality.  The rate at which this is amassing wealth for the few and penury to many -- all that in the world's wealthiest nation -- shows how quickly we can revert to something akin to Feudalism.  We can control this, but it requires the will to oppose the richest and most powerful among us.
   
4. Paranoia and Conspiracy.  With the arrival of Deep Fakes, the ability of large numbers of otherwise rational people to fall through a rathole just got bigger.  Since this is not limited to the US, I may have to move this up the list in the future.
   
5. Decline of the Commons.  Infrastructure decay is the most obvious example of this, but even the vaunted military is now just another cash cow for the .01% who effectively rule us.  But this isn't limited to physical decay, the phenomenon described in Bowling Alone has only gotten worse.  As social institutions fade, the connection of Americans to one another is bent and finally broken.  This is one the government CAN'T fix.  We need to solve this on the human level.
   

So that's my shortlist.  Other than COVID, we're not making a lot of headway on any of them.

I think Biden rightly put the priority on the cabinet and the COVID recovery bill.  The others could follow.

I see the emphasis in getting the economy working rather than ending the division of wealth.  While the inequality of wealth is on the short list for future awakenings or crises, I see no evidence that catalysts or triggers are pointed specifically at that yet.

You have paranoia and conspiracy while I have red violence.  These are obviously related.  Yours is wider.

The decline of the commons is more subtle.  Catalysts?  Trigger?

[David Horn]

(03-15-2021, 05:50 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-15-2021, 05:20 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-14-2021, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have made it a habit to list the crisis problems of late.  No one seems to contradict my personal list explicitly.  COVID has caused a half million deaths and collapsed the economy.  There were big time protests of racism last summer.  Red violence steadily escalated during the Trump years leading to the January 6 insurrection.  Global warming is slower, has not resulted in as obvious a single trigger, but is worth at least an honorable mention and does not lack fire and hurricane catalysts.  If those were just catalysts, I would hate to see the trigger.

These are all on the agenda.  There are other things on the Biden agenda, but none I think have risen to the crisis level?

Is that the right list?  If not, how would anyone change it?

Biden's agenda seems to hit all of the above.  If I complain that the prior administration was oriented to not solve problems, those were the problems I meant.  If you can't fix the economy without beating the bug first, Trump was on the wrong side of all of it.

And yet, here there is a claim that Americans put their heads in the sand.  Over on the Generational Dynamics thread, they are still predicting wars and were recently wailing about civilization's collapse.  Some reds are working themselves up about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head.  It seems a lot of people are not focused on solving what seem to me to be the obvious problems.

Anyone real have a different list?

My list and yours overlap, but differ a bit. Here are my 5 must-dos, not that we will actually, you know, do them:

1. COVID.  Clearly the most important in the near term, but it's coming under control, or it will if the "freedom-to-die" crowd will allow it.  Luckily, it appears that the never-vaccers are losing steam.  Let's hope the decline gets the job done without even more misery.
   
2. Global Warming.  This speaks for itself, but it's worth noting that this issue operates by its rules and on its timeline.  That's why I would normally put it first ... that and the degree of seriousness.
   
3. Rising Inequality.  The rate at which this is amassing wealth for the few and penury to many -- all that in the world's wealthiest nation -- shows how quickly we can revert to something akin to Feudalism.  We can control this, but it requires the will to oppose the richest and most powerful among us.
   
4. Paranoia and Conspiracy.  With the arrival of Deep Fakes, the ability of large numbers of otherwise rational people to fall through a rathole just got bigger.  Since this is not limited to the US, I may have to move this up the list in the future.
   
5. Decline of the Commons.  Infrastructure decay is the most obvious example of this, but even the vaunted military is now just another cash cow for the .01% who effectively rule us.  But this isn't limited to physical decay, the phenomenon described in Bowling Alone has only gotten worse.  As social institutions fade, the connection of Americans to one another is bent and finally broken.  This is one the government CAN'T fix.  We need to solve this on the human level.
   

So that's my shortlist.  Other than COVID, we're not making a lot of headway on any of them.

I think Biden rightly put the priority on the cabinet and the COVID recovery bill.  The others could follow.

I see the emphasis in getting the economy working rather than ending the division of wealth.  While the inequality of wealth is on the short list for future awakenings or crises, I see no evidence that catalysts or triggers are pointed specifically at that yet.

You have paranoia and conspiracy while I have red violence.  These are obviously related.  Yours is wider.

The decline of the commons is more subtle.  Catalysts?  Trigger?

I'm in a bit of a quandary.  When we spike the economy, and that's underway as we post, how do we also assure that all that public money doesn't become instant private wealth? The alternative is to do nothing, which is guaranteed to be a disaster (been there, done that in 2009). Building new infrastructure poses similar issues.  In other words, have we allowed wealth aggregation to go on for too long to contain it? I hope not, but can't be sure.

It doesn't help that people have been aligned against each other, and seem destined to remain misaligned for the foreseeable future.  It's impossible to do the hard things if we disagree on what they are and how to solve them. To be frank, all my items concern me, but #5 the most, because I haven't a clue on how to address it.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2021, 09:38 AM)David Horn Wrote: I'm in a bit of a quandary.  When we spike the economy, and that's underway as we post, how do we also assure that all that public money doesn't become instant private wealth? The alternative is to do nothing, which is guaranteed to be a disaster (been there, done that in 2009). Building new infrastructure poses similar issues.  In other words, have we allowed wealth aggregation to go on for too long to contain it? I hope not, but can't be sure.

It doesn't help that people have been aligned against each other, and seem destined to remain misaligned for the foreseeable future.  It's impossible to do the hard things if we disagree on what they are and how to solve them. To be frank, all my items concern me, but #5 the most, because I haven't a clue on how to address it.

The economy is a trial and error problem with a low number of repetitions. in Obama's time, we did too little. This is too much. Is it possible that we did too much? Certainly.

Infrastructure? Wealth division? Can we contain it? I suspect enough will be done to keep us afloat. I expect enough will be spent to restart the economy, and taxing the rich will be recognized as inevitable. But it won't go beyond that. Truly attacking it will be left for another time.

Agreed, the division is hard to address. The Democrats can prove government could serve the people. The desire to hurt minorities by hurting the working poor has hurt enough people to change the basics. But it is kind of hard to go behind the obvious, wait on the awakening, and hope for the best?

[David Horn]

(03-15-2021, 10:42 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The economy is a trial and error problem with a low number of repetitions.  in Obama's time, we did too little.  This is too much.  Is it possible that we did too much?  Certainly.

Infrastructure?  Wealth division?  Can we contain it?  I suspect enough will be done to keep us afloat.  I expect enough will be spent to restart the economy, and taxing the rich will be recognized as inevitable.  But it won't go beyond that.  Truly attacking it will be left for another time.

As it stands, the top 1% own 85% of all stock and roughly the same percentage of rental property.  Pre-COVID those numbers were in the low 70s.  How long can we wait with differentials already that large and growing?

Bob Butler Wrote:Agreed, the division is hard to address.  The Democrats can prove government could serve the people.  The desire to hurt minorities by hurting the working poor has hurt enough people to change the basics.  But it is kind of hard to go behind the obvious, wait on the awakening, and hope for the best?

I've had my money on the next 2T for a while.  Judging by my age, I won't see it through, so I'll have to hope for the best.

[pbrower2a]

(03-15-2021, 05:20 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-14-2021, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I have made it a habit to list the crisis problems of late.  No one seems to contradict my personal list explicitly.  COVID has caused a half million deaths and collapsed the economy.  There were big time protests of racism last summer.  Red violence steadily escalated during the Trump years leading to the January 6 insurrection.  Global warming is slower, has not resulted in as obvious a single trigger, but is worth at least an honorable mention and does not lack fire and hurricane catalysts.  If those were just catalysts, I would hate to see the trigger.

These are all on the agenda.  There are other things on the Biden agenda, but none I think have risen to the crisis level?

Is that the right list?  If not, how would anyone change it?

Biden's agenda seems to hit all of the above.  If I complain that the prior administration was oriented to not solve problems, those were the problems I meant.  If you can't fix the economy without beating the bug first, Trump was on the wrong side of all of it.

And yet, here there is a claim that Americans put their heads in the sand.  Over on the Generational Dynamics thread, they are still predicting wars and were recently wailing about civilization's collapse.  Some reds are working themselves up about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head.  It seems a lot of people are not focused on solving what seem to me to be the obvious problems.

Anyone real have a different list?

My list and yours overlap, but differ a bit. Here are my 5 must-dos, not that we will actually, you know, do them:

1. COVID.  Clearly the most important in the near term, but it's coming under control, or it will if the "freedom-to-die" crowd will allow it.  Luckily, it appears that the never-vaccers are losing steam.  Let's hope the decline gets the job done without even more misery.
   
2. Global Warming.  This speaks for itself, but it's worth noting that this issue operates by its rules and on its timeline.  That's why I would normally put it first ... that and the degree of seriousness.
   
3. Rising Inequality.  The rate at which this is amassing wealth for the few and penury to many -- all that in the world's wealthiest nation -- shows how quickly we can revert to something akin to Feudalism.  We can control this, but it requires the will to oppose the richest and most powerful among us.
   
4. Paranoia and Conspiracy.  With the arrival of Deep Fakes, the ability of large numbers of otherwise rational people to fall through a rathole just got bigger.  Since this is not limited to the US, I may have to move this up the list in the future.
   
5. Decline of the Commons.  Infrastructure decay is the most obvious example of this, but even the vaunted military is now just another cash cow for the .01% who effectively rule us.  But this isn't limited to physical decay, the phenomenon described in Bowling Alone has only gotten worse.  As social institutions fade, the connection of Americans to one another is bent and finally broken.  This is one the government CAN'T fix.  We need to solve this on the human level.
   

So that's my shortlist.  Other than COVID, we're not making a lot of headway on any of them.

1. The current President treats COVID-19 as a risk on the scale of a Crisis war. The solution for a Lincoln or FDR is to get it over with as quickly as possible at the expense of the ruin and suffering of the Enemy. We can safely treat a nasty little virus with the vehemence that Hitler had for the Jews, except that the Jews are human and COVID-19 is as far from human as an enemy can be. He has the Army delivering many of the inoculations. If you want to get something done that nobody else can do and the consequences of failure are far greater than the cost, then turn to the Army to get it done. 500 thousand dead so far indicates the cost, and if we Americans could erupt in anger about far lesser death tolls such as those of Pearl Harbor or 9/11... well, guess what we do. 

2. Global warming isn't causing mass death yet, but it is on the brink. How ineptly we as Humanity deal with it will decide how large the death toll. Humanity can get away with a slow sequence of events involving global warming, but that depends upon agricultural productivity catching up to human needs in what are now northern Russia, Siberia and most of Canada. Whether the food that feeds 150 million people comes from Finland or from Bangladesh matters little. People can relocate as their world becomes insufferable or unavailable -- if they have the means. But if the farmland upon which hundreds of millions of peasant farmers feed a few more people than themselves disappears under the oceans, then what can those people do if they have nowhere to go?

There is no techno-fix for hunger. It is easy for people to neglect the role of agriculture in the world economy, but if agriculture fails, then all else is irrelevant except wars waged as callously toward soldiers in World War I or the Iran-Iraq war (about which Henry Kissinger said of the opposing belligerents "I wish they could both lose") and the genocidal attitudes toward pariahs among Axis leaders in World War II. Indifference toward human suffering and death can have the same effect as a masterfully-designed genocide.   

If you thought the Holodomor and Holocaust horrific, then just consider what is possible with global warming with its inundation of huge areas of heavily-populated farmland and desertification of much other productive farmland.

3. This will likely reverse. The ethos of the last forty years among the economic elites was that the vast majority of people are to be overworked and underpaid because such creates the capital (through profit) necessary for investment in plant and equipment that create jobs -- well, the exploitation appeared as large dividends and unprecedented levels of executive compensation, so it has proved nothing more than exploitation), and that those who are nominally successful are to be fleeced through gouging and inordinate levels of personal debt. The neoliberal era that began with Reagan and became a sick parody under Trump has likely gone under. This economic exploitation has gone as far as it can without achieving anything other than elite indulgence incompatible with a democratic society. It has not created a level of prosperity that has made inequality a trivial matter. 

4. The January 6 insurrection demonstrates that our political culture has some screws loose. Before that we could all take for granted that elections operate in accordance with rigid rules that clearly define who wins. Maybe some electoral hanky-panky by local pols (Florida in 2000?) or even by foreign actors (disruption of the campaign of Hillary Clinton by foreign interests in 2016?) is possible, but we generally accepted the results. We have the Electoral College, a relic of the time in which the Founders believed that the right way to keep the nation from splintering was to ensure that the States elected the President. That is how things worked in 1896, 2000, and 2016... and not that someone can change the rules at a whim to ensure victory under any circumstances. That is how Duvalier (either one) did things in Haiti and how things are done today in Belarus. 

We need to redevelop a consensus on what is rational thought and explain clearly whether it is preferable even if it is transitorily inconvenient. This is not deference to "dead white males" even if the "dead white males" once did an adequate job. We know a few more things, and we have more temptations; besides the snake-oil salesmen of our time vend more dangerous wares these days. The fundamentals of logic may be all but identical with common sense, but too few people can look outside their desires to see reality. Maybe if they could adapt to reality they could better use it to achieve their desires. 

5. The decline (often called tragedy) of course results from people thinking that if they can manipulate everything to their advantage, that all will go well.  Such hurts others, and if enough people hurt others, then almost everyone is hurt. A few may profiteer, but those become objects of hatred.

[TML]

You know that the US is bad now when you think about freedom and start crying.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-15-2021, 08:11 PM)TML Wrote: You know that the US is bad now when you think about freedom and start crying.

I guess that I didn't start crying when the regeneracy arrived determines things?