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Millions of Ordinary Americans Support Trump. Here's Why.
#61
(07-28-2016, 05:48 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:
(07-28-2016, 05:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Once Republican idiots are removed from political power, our country will move forward. We are part of the whole world. Death to the IS, and death to Assad.

How about death to Ergodan ?

No, but I wish the people of Turkey would wise up and vote him out.

Quote:So, should Turkey get booted out of NATO?  Should the US continue to uphold mutual military aid with someone who abuses ethnic minorities like the Kurds? You gotta pick you know.   What's good for the goose , Assad is just as good for the Turkey, man. 
There is not the remotest comparison between those two. But if the president of Turkey becomes too authoritarian, then yes they should be booted out of NATO.

Quote:A CIA job gone bad?
http://www.voanews.com/content/turkey-us...39070.html

Who knows, right? Big Grin

By whatever the means the situation in Turkey is , well you know
[Image: Pears.jpg]
Conspiracy theory crap has no place in meaninful discourse.

Quote:I think we know the easiest and hassle free option, right?  We just take a pass on both Ergodan and Assad. That way we can just take the pat answer that Ergodan is an ally against IS.

It won't be easy. We need Turkey against Assad and the IS. But if they become more like them, then that becomes a problem for us.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#62
Rags Wrote:A CIA job gone bad?
http://www.voanews.com/content/turkey-us...39070.html

Who knows, right? Big Grin

By whatever the means the situation in Turkey is , well you know
[Image: Pears.jpg]

Eric The Green Wrote:Conspiracy theory crap has no place in meaninful discourse.

Voice Of America is hardly a conspiracy oriented media venue, you know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_America


Rags does vett his media sources to ensure there's no questionable credientials you know! Big Grin Cool Tongue
Quote:I think we know the easiest and hassle free option, right?  We just take a pass on both Ergodan and Assad. That way we can just take the pat answer that Ergodan is an ally against IS.


Quote:It won't be easy. We need Turkey against Assad and the IS. But if they become more like them, then that becomes a problem for us.

It may give Eric a bad case of cognitive dissonance, but Rags is like ol'e honey badger. 






It's getting pretty close.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/...ed-8485304

I suppose if he shells some Kurds things will be pretty damn even.

Oh, wait, already done.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/opposition-ac...tml?ref=gs

So it won't be easy for some folks. It's easy for me since I have a values free approach wrt foreign policy. I have no  "human rights" , "oh  no, somebody's being mean, we have to intervene", etc. baggage.  Since I recognize the US's shit stinks and attracts the same number of flies as any other nation state, then say in the case of Turkey, I can sweep Ergodan's indiscretions under the rug for the sake of the fight against IS. It also means no bombing of Assad, but just focus like a laser beam on IS only. Big Grin
---Value Added Cool
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#63
(07-28-2016, 08:54 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Rags does vett his media sources to ensure there's no questionable credientials you know! Big Grin Cool Tongue

When you share conspiracy theories like "The CIA did it," it usually turns out that your sources are flawed, especially if they are anti-Hillary theories.

Quote:So it won't be easy for some folks. It's easy for me since I have a values free approach wrt foreign policy. I have no  "human rights" , "oh  no, somebody's being mean, we have to intervene", etc. baggage.  Since I recognize the US's shit stinks and attracts the same number of flies as any other nation state, then say in the case of Turkey, I can sweep Ergodan's indiscretions under the rug for the sake of the fight against IS. It also means no bombing of Assad, but just focus like a laser beam on IS only. Big Grin

A values-free approach to anything does not work. You then have no guiding star. You are ruled by demonic forces in that case. Values are essential. They must be divine values.

If somebody's being mean, we do have to intervene. Not the USA alone; not by invading. We can't do it all. Humanity together needs to curtail the demonic in the world, just as much as police need to curtail the demonic in our town. And in ourselves too. We can't put up walls and hide behind them. We don't need to bomb Assad ourselves (though I wouldn't object), and Obama got slugged just for doing what he should have done and asked congress' permission first. But we need to support the rebels.

The laser beam won't work, because chaos in Syria (= Assad in power) will leave that country open to the IS, and leave us without adequate forces there to defeat it. Who is going to defeat the IS in Syria? Assad cannot. Monsters cannot stay in power in this day and age; they are overthrown by their people. Assad in power means more refugees and more terrorists in Europe indefinitely. Assad caused the rise of the IS in Syria; he can't defeat it.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
Reply
#64
Honey badger? I can imagine some dogs, especially tiger -- I mean terrier -- breeds becoming like that through evolution.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#65
Classic-Xer Wrote:My livelihood is fine. I pretty much pick and choose the jobs based on what's best as far as the bottom line. I have an abundance of paying customers.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't take a job installing heating/air conditioning in one of Trump's properties. You probably won't get paid.
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#66
(07-29-2016, 05:55 AM)Alioth68 Wrote:
Classic-Xer Wrote:My livelihood is fine. I pretty much pick and choose the jobs based on what's best as far as the bottom line. I have an abundance of paying customers.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't take a job installing heating/air conditioning in one of Trump's properties. You probably won't get paid.

Nice swipe. Donald Trump is one of the worst sorts of Boomers, the sort who believes that an association with him by working on his behalf brings wonderful results even if one does not get paid. The majesty of Donald Trump allegedly brings an air of greatness upon anyone who works for him.

Truth be told, I can't imagine anyone doing construction or installation work except for the money. There's no magical glow from doing such work for the 'right people'. It's hard, dirty work, and it deserves honest pay for genuine work done competently. Anyone who wants it done had better be ready to pay for it.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#67
(07-29-2016, 05:55 AM)Alioth68 Wrote:
Classic-Xer Wrote:My livelihood is fine. I pretty much pick and choose the jobs based on what's best as far as the bottom line. I have an abundance of paying customers.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't take a job installing heating/air conditioning in one of Trump's properties. You probably won't get paid.
 I wouldn't be in business if I was afraid of not getting paid. The possibility of not getting paid or getting burned is a risk that one must be willing and able to take because it's going to happen eventually.
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#68
(07-29-2016, 12:41 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(07-29-2016, 05:55 AM)Alioth68 Wrote:
Classic-Xer Wrote:My livelihood is fine. I pretty much pick and choose the jobs based on what's best as far as the bottom line. I have an abundance of paying customers.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't take a job installing heating/air conditioning in one of Trump's properties. You probably won't get paid.

Nice swipe. Donald Trump is one of the worst sorts of Boomers, the sort who believes that an association with him by working on his behalf brings wonderful results even if one does not get paid. The majesty of Donald Trump allegedly brings an air of greatness upon anyone who works for him.

Truth be told, I can't imagine anyone doing construction or installation work except for the money. There's no magical glow from doing such work for the 'right people'. It's hard, dirty work, and it deserves honest pay for genuine work done competently. Anyone who wants it done had better be ready to pay for it.
There's a magical glow. For me, it's the sense of accomplishment or achievement that's often felt upon completion. Plus, there's also the sense of appreciation received from customers for a job well done.
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#69
(07-29-2016, 04:34 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(07-29-2016, 05:55 AM)Alioth68 Wrote:
Classic-Xer Wrote:My livelihood is fine. I pretty much pick and choose the jobs based on what's best as far as the bottom line. I have an abundance of paying customers.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't take a job installing heating/air conditioning in one of Trump's properties. You probably won't get paid.
 I wouldn't be in business if I was afraid of not getting paid. The possibility of not getting paid or getting burned is a risk that one must be willing and able to take because it's going to happen eventually.

I know a little about accounting for contractors. Contractors rightly expect to be paid on a percentage-of-completion basis.

You would be wise of course to discuss the wisdom of some deals with a CPA who might be able to do some financial analysis of the creditworthiness of those with whom you deal.

That's if you don't know this already. As Ronald Reagan said, "trust but verify".
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#70
Eric The Greeen Wrote:When you share conspiracy theories like "The CIA did it," it usually turns out that your sources are flawed, especially if they are anti-Hillary theories.


Voice of America is flawed/a conspiracy theory source.  Well, let's just go with it's the US version of Pravda and is a propaganda source.  Let's agree for whatever reasons and abolish VOA because we both don't like it.

Quote:A values-free approach to anything does not work. You then have no guiding star. You are ruled by demonic forces in that case. Values are essential. They must be divine values.

No, the approach is just unadulterated pragmatism.  No angles or demons necessary.

Quote:If somebody's being mean, we do have to intervene. Not the USA alone; not by invading. We can't do it all. Humanity together needs to curtail the demonic in the world, just as much as police need to curtail the demonic in our town. And in ourselves too. We can't put up walls and hide behind them.

No, again, the US needs to go back to kindergarten and learn to keep its hands to itself. The peoples of Latin America, Africa, and the MIdeast , I know would thank us! Big Grin 

Quote:We don't need to bomb Assad ourselves (though I wouldn't object), and Obama got slugged just for doing what he should have done and asked congress' permission first. But we need to support the rebels.


Naww, do the easy thing and let Putin do it.


Quote:The laser beam won't work, because chaos in Syria (= Assad in power) will leave that country open to the IS, and leave us without adequate forces there to defeat it. Who is going to defeat the IS in Syria? Assad cannot.

Either Putin or a US/Russia coalition to do it.  Either way is fine.


Quote:Monsters cannot stay in power in this day and age; they are overthrown by their people. Assad in power means more refugees and more terrorists in Europe indefinitely. Assad caused the rise of the IS in Syria; he can't defeat it.

I guess Ergodan's gonna go away as well...
---Value Added Cool
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#71
(07-29-2016, 05:52 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Voice of America is flawed/a conspiracy theory source.  Well, let's just go with it's the US version of Pravda and is a propaganda source.  Let's agree for whatever reasons and abolish VOA because we both don't like it.

Fine with me.

Quote:No, the approach is just unadulterated pragmatism.  No angels or demons necessary.

Spoken like a true "nomad" Xer. But the angels and demons are within us. We need to be aware of them and choose. The "better angels of our nature" as Lincoln called it, is needed if we are to accomplish our aims. These better angels are expressed by our values.

Quote:No, again, the US needs to go back to kindergarten and learn to keep its hands to itself. The peoples of Latin America, Africa, and the Mideast , I know would thank us! Big Grin 

That's not "pragmatic." It's a high ideal. It won't work; this is a world of rampant power, and someone needs to keep order. It's just that I'd rather it be the UN and such groups rather than Uncle Sam alone.

Quote:Naww, do the easy thing and let Putin do it.

I don't think he will. Putin doesn't like quagmires any more than Uncle Sam does. And again, only a tiny minority will be left inside Syria even in case Syria becomes a Russian colony. The rest will have been fled, giving rightwing demogogues in The West plenty of fuel for their take-off and ascension. Once they take over, Katy bar the door as far as war is concerned.

Quote:Either Putin or a US/Russia coalition to do it.  Either way is fine.

WHAT, you say? Now you are sounding more like me. I think those two, plus a coalition of allied powers, can arrive at a plan to replace Assad and the Islamic State (both will have to be replaced; that's where we disagree I guess), and restore a government by the Syrians. Kerry is working on just that. I have predicted progress for next year. No doubt it is extremely difficult, because Assad will not agree, and Russia is, well.... Putin. But at least some progress may be gained by next year. The "stars" are right. But no coalition between Russia and the USA can happen to defeat the IS unless deposing Assad is also agreed to. Because Assad is the cause of the IS in Syria, and would continue to be.

Quote:I guess Ergodan's gonna go away as well...

It depends on how much of a monster he becomes, on a permanent basis. That's not quite clear yet. But many young people already rose up against him in the Arab Spring era. Such a possibility can't be ruled out.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#72
I remember Kinser saying that we would have to trade the continuation of an Assad regime for the extermination of the IS. I'm pretty sure Trump would be willing to do that, given how much he likes Russia/Putin and how Putin wants Assad still in power. But we cannot continue to do so. We must take out both the IS and Assad.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again."
—Thomas Paine, Common Sense (1776)

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes."
—Mark Twain

'98 Millennial
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