How a Democracy Dies

[nebraska]

How a Democracy Dies

https://newrepublic.com/article/145916/d...stitutions

[pbrower2a]

Here is the supreme irony: you have linked to a good and provocative article. You could cut and paste the introductory paragraph or two (protected by the doctrine of Fair Use) to get others tempted to read the article. (I regret to say that my main computer is down, so I cannot cut-and-paste from the article while using a reader).

Dermagogues are dangerous, and our Constitution is wholly inadequate as a defense of liberal democracy (which can be very different from the wish-fulfillment of the followers of the demagogue,which could imply the refutation of liberal norms. I am speaking also of Donald Trump, but I could as easily speak of Chavez and Maduro in Venezuela, Erdogan in Turkey, or Orban in Hungary).

[nebraska]

Hollywood, the media, and advertisers brainwash Americans to be immoral, go on anti-depressants, get fat, take out student loans, go in debt, take out mortgages, get married, get divorced, go on welfare, support tyranny, and embrace wars, but maybe part of the reason the US is collapsing now is because these actions conflict with traditional American values of being moral, staying healthy, being responsible, being independent, loving freedom, and supporting peace.

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-04-2018, 06:14 PM)nebraska Wrote: Hollywood, the media, and advertisers brainwash Americans to be immoral, go on anti-depressants, get fat, take out student loans, go in debt, take out mortgages, get married, get divorced, go on welfare, support tyranny, and embrace wars, but maybe part of the reason the US is collapsing now is because these actions conflict with traditional American values of being moral, staying healthy, being responsible, being independent, loving freedom, and supporting peace.

Part of our current troubles is a divide between old values and new.  Yes, in some ways it would be nice to embrace the old values, turn back the clock, and live in a past that was in some ways better for some.  But, would it not be nice to correct flaws as well?  Are not many attempts by some to be more moral, healthy, responsible, indepenant, free and peaceful progressive?

No historical culture has been perfect.  To get better you have to change.  Different people for good reason see different needs to change.  Much of it is cultural and values driven.  Both clinging to the old and striving for the new can be driven by greed, mistaken, unaffordable, partisan, or otherwise flawed.

But mostly, the grand experiment of Democracy has run into the partisan divide of both cliques trying to force the other to change culture.  Cultures do not change lightly.  One size does not fit all.  People believe their own culture correct, the other fatally flawed, and cease to believe the other guy has good intentions.

If we cannot grow beyond that, we cannot grow.

[nebraska]

Those who stand up for freedom are on the right side of history. Communism failed.
Those who support wars, debt, and tyranny are just tools of the elites.

https://www.ocregister.com/2016/02/09/cu...socialism/

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-05-2018, 12:26 AM)nebraska Wrote: Those who stand up for freedom are on the right side of history. Communism failed.
Those who support wars, debt, and tyranny are just tools of the elites.

https://www.ocregister.com/2016/02/09/cu...socialism/

Yep.  I'm pretty well labeled a Whig around here.  Progress is real.  Communism is a form of dated autocratic government best not practiced.  It is best left on the ash heap of history with absolute monarchy.  I view conservative attempts to cling to old vaues to be similar and to be expected.  This does not mean nothing old is worth saving, nor that urban and rural cultures are the same.  However it should not mean that stability or change should be rejected out of hand.

Again, we have a problem between two cultures, one clinging to old values, one pushing to solve new problems.  I see neither as evil except being unwilling to listen and to some degree being subverted by elites.

[nebraska]

When a nation goes down, or a society perishes, one condition may always be found; they forgot where they came from. They lost sight of what had brought them along.

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-05-2018, 05:34 PM)nebraska Wrote: When a nation goes down, or a society perishes, one condition may always be found; they forgot where they came from. They lost sight of what had brought them along.

There is truth in that if you are conservative.  A progressive would say a society that failed likely did not adapt to modern conditions clung too tightly to old structures.  I look at hereditary monachies and communists and say the did not fail but could not compete with modern industrial democracies.  They were just dated.

I call myself a Whig in that I see nigh on inevitable growth and change, but I most often side with the progressives.  I see history through that lens.  This does not mean I see conservatives as stupid or wrong, or any of the other insults feely available.  Humans just cling to their worldviews.  They are often unable to listen to anything that competes.

Eric the Green is as progressive as they come.  I flame at him too.

I view elites clinging to power as the common fatal flaw in human cultures (groups of peole who share similar perspectives).  The old nobility saw the ownership of land and military power as central.  They held power for about as long as that remained true, but fell when industrial influluence and power became more key.  Communism became obsolete as membership in the Party defined their elite... Party members.  They ruled for strongmen and the Party too much, to little for the benefit if the People or to compete with other nations.  Thus, they too fell.  Their flaw was in not working for the benefit of the People.

In America, the major crises each solved a major problem confronting society at the time.  This is today not rural vs urban or conservative vs progressive.  They are each half right, and should seek to avoid using government to impose their solutions and values on the other.  The real problem is elite control of the government.  The government works for a few, not for the interests of the many.  As a result, we cannot compete with nations that prioritize otherwise.

I do not argue against conservative or progressive, but would rather adapt the strength of each and use it against the elites.

[beechnut79]

(01-05-2018, 05:34 PM)nebraska Wrote: When a nation goes down, or a society perishes, one condition may always be found; they forgot where they came from. They lost sight of what had brought them along.

But wasn't this what Trump preached with his "Make America great again" slogan?

[nebraska]

Americans seem to have forgotten their own history.

Americans should be moral, be proud, and have personal responsibility.

Americans are supposed to be the good guys. We should not be Commies or Nazis.

Governments are not kind. Government is force.

Businesses are not cruel. Companies are about voluntarily transactions.

Americans wrongly think that because the US is immoral now, the USA was always immoral.

Americans wrongly think that because Americans are fat now, Americans were always fat.

Americans wrongly think that because the US has high taxes now, the USA always had high taxes.

Americans wrongly think that because the US has welfare now, the USA always had welfare.

Americans wrongly think that because the US is at war now, the USA was always at war.

Americans wrongly think that because the US has high debt now, the USA was always deeply in debt.

http://www.polidiotic.com/by-the-numbers...t-by-year/

Americans wrongly think that because the US is a police state now, the USA was never a free country.

http://onlineathens.com/opinion/2016-09-...xceptional

Instead of allowing the free market to work, the USA seems to think fixing every problem with a decree is an effective solution.

https://www.clevelandleader.com/new-poll...rettyPhoto

Instead of improving product quality, lowering wages, and using technology to increase exports, the USA would rather start a trade war by punishing foreign imports with higher tariffs.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-trade-m...06194.html

Instead of reducing regulations and ending welfare to stimulate the economy, Americans would rather increase debt with money printing and borrowing to bailout failed companies and to boost the stock market.

https://nypost.com/2017/09/06/white-hous...t-ceiling/

Instead of allowing private charities to feed the poor, Americans would rather ban feeding the homeless and panhandling.

Instead of reducing regulations and allowing people to live in tiny houses, Americans would rather ban tiny houses and use rent control decrees to try to make prices lower.

http://www.oregonlive.com/hg/index.ssf/2...nd_cl.html

Instead of hard work, careful spending, and investing, the government would rather decree that minimum wages must be higher.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-signals...iness.html

Instead of allowing people to own guns and protect themselves, our overlords would rather ban guns by decree.

Instead of allowing people to be responsible for themselves, Americans would rather have our overlords decree that we
must wear helmets, use seatbelts, and not smoke.

http://staugustine.com/florida-news/2017...ed-florida

The problem with decreeing quick fixes and ignoring the free market is that they lead to dependence, bubbles, and a false sense of wealth.

Nothing has been fixed since the 2008 crash. Banking fraud was rewarded with bailouts instead of being punished with jail sentences. No effective laws have been enacted to restrain Wall Street fraud and the debt is larger now.

https://www.postandcourier.com/opinion/b...26b2a.html

Almost every single problem in the US is caused by the government:

Outlawing drugs makes drug prices higher, increase taxes. and enlarges the police state, but doesn't stop drug use.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/fea...e-20150625

College is expensive because of government loans.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/prest...tion-costs

Medical costs are expensive because of government regulations.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/201...lemedicine

Rent is expensive because of government regulations.

http://homes1.statesman.com/stories/5105...n-s-d-area

Families are broken because of government welfare.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201...le-poorer/

Illegal immigrants are flooding the country because the government won't enforce immigration laws.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/texas/article...434637.php

The economy is bad because of government regulations.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/stor...416597001/

Taxes are high because of government waste, subsidies, wars, welfare, and debt.

https://nypost.com/2017/09/01/americans-...d-clothes/

There are terrorism and refugees because of US wars.

http://www.daily-times.com/story/opinion.../76674546/

Part of the reason the USA is collapsing now and drug use, alcoholism, suicides, and STD rates are rising is because the elites have changed the rules. Some Americans are not reacting well to the changes. Instead of having personal responsibility, being moral, and working hard, Americans are now told to be lazy, immoral, and dependent.

https://nypost.com/2016/06/03/overdoses-...cans-hard/

Since everything was illegal in the USSR, Russians just gave up. Now we're seeing the same thing happening in the US.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20160...306119961/

Why bother doing anything if you're just going to go to jail?

Why work if your taxes pay for illegal immigrants, debt, war, curfews, gun bans, NSA wiretapping, checkpoints, forfeiture, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, torture, kill lists, no fly lists, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, FBAR, FATCA, TSA groping, secret FISA courts, and Jade Helm?

The USA is collapsing.

Americans have no rights, everything is illegal, and the US is no longer a democracy.

The US is in debt, is conducting multiple wars, is a police state, is flooded by illegal immigrants, and has become immoral.

Americans are either ignoring the decay or think that nothing can be done to stop the decline. Almost no one thinks the US can be saved.

No one appears to be worried about tyranny because liberals think the police state only applies to conservatives and conservatives think the police state only affects liberals.

The truth seems to be that the elites want to wipe out the strong white men and plan to send the weak liberals to the gulags where they will be starved and killed. The 1% will then divide the wealth and land of the US among themselves.

How else can you explain the destruction of the USA? Economics isn't rocket science. If you want a strong economy, don't punish hard work with taxes and regulations while rewarding laziness with welfare and allowing millions of 3rd world immigrants to flood the country.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/...itics.html

https://acculturated.com/rogue-one-makes...my-future/

http://www.returnofkings.com/82647/how-t...vilization

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/rud...ternatives

http://www.tylerpaper.com/TP-Opinion/287...-consumers

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201...rd-spiral/

http://www.tylerpaper.com/TP-Opinion/283...oil-wealth

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comme...mmigration

Tyranny has never worked out well anywhere. Those fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Sadly Americans won't realize what is happening until it is too late.

Never underestimate the inhumanity of man towards man. Greed has no bounds.

Anyone who supports the police state, wars, debt, regulations, or welfare is just a tool for the elites.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/revisiting-dis...43360.html

Wake up.

Think.

Pass the word.

http://f2bbs.com/bbs

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-05-2018, 09:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Americans seem to have forgotten their own history.

Humans will typically read history selectively in an attempt to justify their own perspective.

(01-05-2018, 09:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Americans should be moral, be proud, and have personal responsibility.

Humans should be moral, be proud, and have personal responsibility, but often find selective readings of history preferable.  Thus, self interest often replaces what it would be nice if it were true. People are not always moral, proud and have personal responsibility, regardless of what continent they might come from.  Truth tumps cultural half truths. 

(01-05-2018, 09:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Americans are supposed to be the good guys. We should not be Commies or Nazis.   Governments are not kind. Government is force...   Businesses are not cruel... Companies are about voluntarily transactions.

In the 1930s, it seemed obvious to many that industrial democracy had failed and that a Communist revolution was necessary.  They were wrong, based on what was learned in the history that unfolded.  Marx was wrong in his solutions.  He counted on the People to maintain his revolution rather than the party becoming a corrupt selfish dominant elite.  Marx was quite correct in identifying the problems.   A capitalist system with an elite ruling class that monopolizes control is a problem.

Buisnessmen are not generally cruel but they generally consider the size and strength of themselves and their company as all important.  In this they often are like those obsolete elites and governments who considered land (agriculture) and military power as primary.  They often focus on themselves.  Thus one often ends up with forces pulling in nigh on as many direcions as there are companies with little concern as to whether there is any advantage to the People.

I know, it is fairly obvious, that conservatives today favor corporations, while the progressives favor government.  To me, this is a false dichotomy.  There ought to be balance between the two and both should be working in the interests of the People.  If the little fish are doing well, it generally follows that the big fish will do fine, will find plenty of prey.

(01-05-2018, 09:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Americans wrongly think that because the US is immoral now, the USA was always immoral.

Morality can seem relative.  I essentially minored in philosophy, but only learned how easy it is to create a supposedly moral system that justifies one's supposed goals.  Still, it is hard to call monarchy, colonial imperialism, slavery or unchechecked capitalism moral.  Civilization has always been flawed.  As I see it, removing these flaws through crisis is the job of progressives forcing down conservatives.  This does not imply that everything old is bad, but that is the way is has always been.  Global warming is one of the latest cases.  I expect lots of revenge when the next generation of prophets comes of age.

***

I could go on, but you have chosen a path impossible to rebut in reasonable sized posts.  All I can do is show that your opinions are not uniquely true.  They involve one particular, selective and thus flawed approach.  I too could spam and provide links to often partisan sources, but that isn't the tradition here.  Can you defend your short biased posts?

[nebraska]

Things fall apart.

Clean-cut, moral Americans who were taught to hate Communism, be hard-working, be responsible, respect free speech, support religious freedom, defend gun rights, oppose warrantless searches, seizures, and torture must be in a state of shock to watch the USA become Socialist.

The elites and the media are pushing wars, tyranny, debt, illegal immigrants, offshoring, moral decay, and Socialism.

Americans pretend everything is fine and put their heads in the sand to ignore the obvious decline.

One day Americans may wake up and wonder how bankers can commit fraud and be rewarded with billion dollar bailouts instead of being jailed. Americans may ask why they should obey the law when the government and illegal immigrants don't. Why can the police kill unarmed Americans, the CIA can torture, officials can lie to Congress, IRS agents can target conservatives, and the EPA can pollute, but Americans can't?

Angry Americans might start resisting by lying on government forms, getting fake ID's, failing to pay taxes, not buying insurance, not wearing seatbelts, not registering guns, not getting driver licenses, and smoking in public.

The government will retaliate by increasing punishments with higher fines, longer sentences, and more draconian laws.

Americans might push back with sniper attacks on police checkpoints and terrorism.

As the economy dies due to debt and regulations, the elites will try to pump up the economy by nationalizing companies and outlawing private property and try to distract Americans by launching WWIII with North Korea, Iran, Russia, and China.

Americans will eventually end up in the concentration camps.

How many Americans will wish that they had spoken out against the police state earlier as they get pushed into the ovens?

Americans deserve everything coming to them.

How can Americans look in the mirror today without feeling shame and disgust?

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them.

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-06-2018, 06:38 AM)nebraska Wrote: Things fall apart.

There is a see saw.  The Republicans and Democrats are taking turns trying to change culture.  The result is that neither dominant culture is made up of happy people.  You do a decent job of highlighting one side of the coin.  There are two.

(01-06-2018, 06:38 AM)nebraska Wrote: Clean-cut, moral Americans who were taught to hate Communism, be hard-working, be responsible, respect free speech, support religious freedom, defend gun rights, oppose warrantless searches, seizures, and torture must be in a state of shock to watch the USA become Socialist.

Would it surprise you to learn that I'll advocate for all of the above?  Have I not relegated Communism to the ash heap of history?  Am I not the one progressive who has come out advocating gun rights?  (Well, that last is before you came on site.)  You are not arguing against my perspective.  To a great degree you are not listening,  You are just repeating a common perspective which has been spammed many times before.

Conservatives often label any attempt to help the People Socialist.  I would ignore most such.  Those who say that governments have never helped people are just unfamiliar with history.

(01-06-2018, 06:38 AM)nebraska Wrote: The elites and the media are pushing wars, tyranny, debt, illegal immigrants, offshoring, moral decay, and Socialism...

From here you are one who finds fault with things as they are.  In some ways I sympathize.  Republican wars often show profit underneath the surface.  Bush 43 had a cabanet full of military and oil men.  Am I to blame for thinking he wanted to put troops near the oil?  Democrats are eager to spread western values and defend against terror.  Spreading any values at gunpoint is hard at a scale less than Atlanta in 1864 or Berlin in 1944, but attempts by sincere people to try it are understandable.  It is hard to impossible to succeed, though, with secular values discredited by years of colonial imperialism and economic exploitation continuing.  Thus we see perverted religious values and tactics which we would prefer not to be used.  Why are stupid easily checked tactics unused?  Duh...  When formal war with uniforms, tanks and front lines is not likely to lead to victory, it is tempting to destroy the civilian will to fight.  Tempting, but there is a long phase were you only unite and provoke the enemy.

Things are complicated.  It is not surprising, though, to see Republicans and Democrats alike favoring simplistic perspectives.

[nebraska]

Everything the government can do, the free market can do.

Part of the USA is decaying is because even though everything illegal, Americans are starting to question why they should obey the law when the government and illegal immigrants don't and the US is no longer a democracy.

The US is an immoral bankrupt warmongering police state.

The USA is declining by almost every measure.

The US pretends to be a moral country, but is immoral.

The US pretends to be a free country, but is a police state.

The US pretends to be a peaceful country, but is a warmonger.

The US pretends to have a booming economy, but it is bankrupt.

Profits, copper prices, housing starts, home ownership, sales, orders, rail traffic, confidence, mortgage applications, labor participation, futures, and spending are falling. GDP is weak. Wages are flat. Foreclosures, deficits, jobless claims, debt, and inflation are rising.

Drug use, alcoholism, suicides, divorce, and STD rates are rising.

There has always been immorality in the USA, but there was a time when most Americans went to church, and homosexuality, drug use, abortions, sex before marriage, and divorces were shocking.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion.../16467677/

The elites, advertisers, Hollywood, and the media are trying to weaken and divide Americans by pushing immorality, welfare, debt, and illegal immigration.

No fault divorce laws, domestic violence laws, child support laws, and alimony laws discourage men from getting married. Girls would rather marry the state than marry a man. Why would men get married when marriage is so risky and men could lose half of their property in a divorce? Why would men get married if girls are willing to have sex before marriage?

Technology and science are also enabling immorality. Arranged marriages are rare now that people can arrange one night stands online. People aren't so trusting of religion when churches have sex scandals and corruption. People have doubts when the church is proven wrong about the Sun revolving around the Earth or evolution. Why pray to God when you get sick if you can just take medicine or have surgery?

Encouraging immorality is easy since everything takes the easiest path. People, animals, and water prefer to avoid obstacles.

Why start a business when hard work is punished with taxes and regulations and laziness is rewarded with welfare?

Why work if your taxes pay for illegal immigrants, debt, war, curfews, gun bans, NSA wiretapping, checkpoints, forfeiture, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, torture, kill lists, no fly lists, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, FBAR, FATCA, TSA groping, secret FISA courts, and Jade Helm?

There's not much hope for the US.

Americans have gone insane.

The default American response to the US collapse is to ignore the decay, excuse government abuse, attack the messengers who warn of the dangers of tyranny, and to blame everyone else except themselves for the decline.

Americans are ignoring the obvious collapse of the US by sticking their heads in the sand and focusing instead on bread and circuses, celebrities, sports, movies, music, alcohol, drugs, and sex.

Americans don't care about government corruption and scandals.

Americans will vehemently attack anyone who dares criticize their beloved government overlords by shouting "fake news!" or calling patriots spammers, trolls, shills, bots, racists, or nutjobs and demanding that the truth-tellers be censored, banned, get IRS audits, be arrested, or be killed.

Americans quickly blame China, Russia, libtards, homosexuals, Communists, Nazis, blacks, atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, feminists, or illegal immigrants for the fall of the USA, but if Americans really want to know who is responsible, they just need to look in the mirror.

The collapse of the US is shocking and disgusting.

How can Americans sleep at night now?

Every country has the government it deserves.

Anarchists did not try to carry out genocide against the Armenians in Turkey; they did not deliberately starve millions of Ukrainians; they did not create a system of death camps to kill Jews, gypsies, and Slavs in Europe; they did not fire-bomb scores of large German and Japanese cities and drop nuclear bombs on two of them; they did not carry out a Great Leap Forward that killed scores of millions of Chinese; they did not attempt to kill everybody with any appreciable education in Cambodia; they did not launch one aggressive war after another; they did not implement trade sanctions that killed perhaps 500,000 Iraqi children. In debates between anarchists and statists, the burden of proof clearly should rest on those who place their trust in the state. Anarchy’s mayhem is wholly conjectural; the state’s mayhem is undeniably, factually horrendous.

[pbrower2a]

(01-05-2018, 09:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Americans seem to have forgotten their own history.

[/quote]

Because they can interpret history selectively and to fit their ideologies, they can turn history into a quagmire.

Quote:Americans should be moral, be proud, and have personal responsibility.

Many of us should register shame for supporting Donald Trump, a crassly-immoral person far worse than Hillary Clinton, and for supporting empty-suit pols who will solve nothing except to concentrate wealth and power on behalf of their corporate backers. 

Quote:Americans are supposed to be the good guys. We should not be Commies or Nazis.

Americans elected Donald Trump, who is not a good guy. Maybe we are not so much evil as naive'

Quote:Governments are not kind. Government is force.

Government representing a good and honest People, and reflecting the benign character (including integrity) of the People, will themselves be good. Governments can suppress such evil as slavery, fraud, abuse, and chicanery. We may largely be good, but there are good reasons for police, prosecutors, courts, and prisons.

Quote:Businesses are not cruel. Companies are about voluntarily transactions.

Businesses are no better than owners and management. When ownership and management are corrupt and cruel, then the 'voluntary' character of ordinary business transactions becomes suspect. Don't be fooled; Mafia-like organizations are businesses.

To be sure, businesses must deal with flawed people as suppliers, customers, and employees. Businesses need internal controls (which explains the importance of accountants).

Quote:Americans wrongly think that because the US is immoral now, the USA was always immoral.

America is no better than the morality of those in command, as is true of any political entity in existence. A nation under the command of slave-owning planters is by necessity evil.

Quote:Americans wrongly think that because Americans are fat now, Americans were always fat.

Obesity came into vogue in the Gilded Age among people who had often been under-nourished. People found out the hard way that such was not good for personal health. Obesity is most common among people barely-educated, people who respond to the advertising for foods heavy in fats and sugar. These are the people who, like a cousin that I had who died at 48 of a heart attack while weighing over 400 pounds, often went to a fast-food place, supersized his order and then doubled it.

Obesity is commonplace among jailbirds, a group of people generally not known for making wise choices in life.

Yes, it is possible to avoid obesity even if one eats fast food. Portion control, and picking a salad over a milkshake can keep one from becoming bigger than the average bear.

Quote:Americans wrongly think that because the US has high taxes now, the USA always had high taxes.

High taxes and good services can make a land of opportunity and equity. Low taxes and low services can make a society with opportunity for a few and little equity. I look back to those low-tax, low-service times that plutocrats like Donald Trump so love (the 1920s and earlier) and I see the 70-hour workweeks and 40-year lifespans commonplace for industrial workers, the ravaging of the environment for such productivity as there was, the subjection of women and minorities, children dropping out of school to support their families if the breadwinner father died, pervasive expressions of separate-but-equal (note the oxymoron -- it is impossible to achieve an oxymoron as a program) practices, and of course the extreme inequality and I question whether the 'good old days' were good for any but the elites of the time. Lower technology? If I had to choose between the modern technologies that we now know or the improved social conditions that have existed since the mid-1930s, I would give up the former. Sure, I am practically an Internet addict... but at least I have some purpose as such.

Quote:Americans wrongly think that because the US has welfare now, the USA always had welfare.

True. it had hunger. It had people dying of starvation. 

Quote:Americans wrongly think that because the US is at war now, the USA was always at war.

America was rarely at peace with First Peoples from the 1780s to about 1890. We live in a militaristic culture no less than was Prussia.

Quote:Americans wrongly think that because the US has high debt now, the USA was always deeply in debt.

We could be more careful about private as well as public debt. By the way -- technically, your currency and your bank deposits are public debt.

[/quote]

[nebraska]

Wow.

Everyone seems to agree that wars, debt, and tyranny are the main problems facing the US. The issue seems to be what the answer is for the decline.

Government is not the solution, but rather the cause of our problems.

One wonders if food stamps lead to obesity. Watch any documentary from the 1970's to see how skinny Americans used to be.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074605/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

If you work 70 hours a week, whose fault is that?

If you turn on a lawnmower and chop off your hand then do you blame the lawnmower company, the government, or yourself?

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/2016120...-socialism

When was there ever mass starvation in the USA?

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n...-46713514/

https://www.infoplease.com/us/american-w...d-veterans

https://news.goldcore.com/us/gold-blog/4...-standard/

Perhaps one solution to the US collapse is secession. Liberals could live on the East and West coasts, the Conservatives could live in the Midwest and the South, and Libertarians could have New Hampshire.

No matter what happens, Americans should stay healthy, make plans, stock up, buy gold, buy guns, and get the word out now.

[Bob Butler 1954]

I am into world views and values. These are so close as to be interrelated. A world view is a shortcut, a way of looking at the world lest one have to look at it directly. It filters and makes sense of what is happening. Some are so strong as to make one unable to perceive things which conflict with the world view. A set of values is related. These too are a often a short cut, guiding one to achieving success given the world view is more or less correct.

World views and cultures are often centered on life styles. They can be political, scientific, religious, military, artistic or other. They can be more specific. It makes sense to talk of conservative, moderate or progressive world views or values. World view and values are often unique, personal. It makes sense to speak of Bob Butler’s world view, or Nebraska’s.

Most world views are nigh on impossible to change without a complete failure of the world view. For example, my world view would collapse if I were convinced that people could easily shift opinions, or if world views often changed. Many are supposedly flexible. Scientific world views supposedly can be changed by a single experiment or repeatable observation. Even then, the scientific mind would only consider part of his way of looking at things invalidated. Faith in the scientific method is apt to be unshaken. If a contradiction is found, this only begins a search for resolution that often is directed in a way that leaves the scientific method intact. (Dark matter, anyone?)

I see my world view and values to be scientific first, political second, and religious third. I see Nebraska’s as partisan political. As such, as neither of us share world views or values, it is essentially impossible to truly communicate. Our recent attempts demonstrate this. Many who visit this forum have partisan progressive world views. Same thing. I am not convinced of their ability to perceive of things that contradict their core beliefs.

I can accept that Nebraska sincerely believes that his position is moral and true, I will accept most other progressive positions, such as Eric the Green’s, as comparably moral and true. I will accept the two come from radically different places, both figuratively and literally, that their life experience provides reasonable justification for very different ways of looking at things…

If you disregard facts and truths which conflict with your world view, which is a very big if in both these cases.

Definitions: A culture is a group of people who share similar world views and values. An S&H crisis is the major way a culture recognizes a world view or set of values isn’t working and must change.

It is fairly obvious that Nebraska isn’t going to change, isn’t going to see the problems that are forcing a need for change, and represents a whole lot of people.

Now in the above post Nebraska uses many short phrases which to me seem half truths, I could find in most useful values and agree with him. I could find in many counter examples, situations in which his principles seem to me to break down. I can also find where the statements are counter factual. For example, companies in a free market must not do things that leave other companies unfree, while governments can put limits on companies. This is a problem with his mode of thinking. The US in World War II dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. It did not drop them on multiple Axis powers. This shows ignorance of history, but is easily corrected, is not a flaw in his perspective. Both show Nebraska undoubtedly wrong, and could be used to reject what he is trying to say. His entire post echoes these examples.

Thus, I don’t know what to do with Nebraska’s above post. My most open question is with justification for force. He seems to dwell on the cusp between conservative and anarchist world views. Does the current situation justify force? Is someone who uses force responsible to replace the status quo with something better? Communist revolutions only put the most ruthless person in charge. The resultant cultures simply could not compete with the West. Beyond parroting virtues, what can be done to assure improvement?

I am labeled a Whig. As such, I do not want democracy, equality, human rights and similar mechanisms dismantled. I do not want to see progressive steps achieved in prior crises lost. I do not think the current situation perfect. Thus I have the progressive urge to change.

This doesn’t make certain old perspectives and virtues unappealing. I’ll just note that values now considered old were once new.

[nebraska]

A shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases.

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-06-2018, 07:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Wow.

Everyone seems to agree that wars, debt, and tyranny are the main problems facing the US. The issue seems to be what the answer is for the decline.

Government is not the solution, but rather the cause of our problems.

I might replace tyranny with global warming, but global warming isn't as visible yet.

The government as is is the problem, not necessarily government.  I anticipate we'll have government after the next crisis, but hope it will be very different.

(01-06-2018, 07:57 PM)nebraska Wrote: Perhaps one solution to the US collapse is secession. Liberals could live on the East and West coasts, the Conservatives could live in the Midwest and the South, and Libertarians could have New Hampshire.

No matter what happens, Americans should stay healthy, make plans, stock up, buy gold, buy guns, and get the word out now.

The Constitution originally specified that the states would remain sovereign, that the federal government would be limited to powers granted by law.  Over the centuries, the power of the federal government grew.  Much of this is to blame on the Supreme Court, whose members are nominated and ratified by feds.  Does anyone see a problem there?  I would not be surprised by movement back in the direction of state power and one culture not attempting to force change on the other.  I am not sure secession is the way to go about it, but am not eliminating it out of hand.

On the other hand, I am glad the united states were united to face the Civil War, Great Depression, World War II and Civil Rights movement.  The problems we faced were best solved once, not fifty times.  As much a fan of state power as I am now, as much as I want to see federal power weakened, each culture left alone, I would not change the past if I could.

I would use the word 'humans' rather that 'Americans'.   I am not as sure we should all buy guns as I am of what the founding fathers believed and wrote into law.  Otherwise, I can see the logic of where Nebraska wants to go, if not the extemes he takes it.

Nebraska also talks primarily of domestic policy.  I am concerned also of foreign policy.  Many strive to change cultures abroad at gunpoint, which is no easier than changing domestic culture.  If we remain blind to others, we will continue to set policy that fails.  Too many believe in corporate power, in using military force to guarantee access to resources.  This should be quashed.  We try to extend our use of force around the world.  If we try to do this, we will be behind Russia, China, Europe and other continental powers with nigh on the same resources we have.  We will be unable to do as much for the local population as others have proven possible.

I think it impossible to get rid of government, but it sure needs to change.  I don't see us changing to yesterday, as we are facing new problems requiring new solutions.  

It is often useful to honor and practice old values and virtues.  In many respects Nebraska and many conservatives are right.

I also note that during the Industrial Age, superpowers didn't vanish.  Spain, France, Great Britain, Germany and Russia are still on the map.  They are no longer the superpowers they were at various times, but they are still there and their people generally have livable life styles.  Even given the worst case of US succession, crisis war and partition, we could go into the global warming time of troubles no worse than many.

[Bob Butler 1954]

(01-07-2018, 08:49 PM)nebraska Wrote: A shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases.

But can we at least admit one shoe doesn't fit all?  We souldn't try to force everyone into wearing the same size shoe?