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It looks like Trump is setting the mood for the 1T.
#21
So I should be thankful to work as a convenience-store clerk in a horrible part of the country and praise the new Great and Glorious Leader?

I have an idea of what I just might do on January 20, 2017. Since liberalism is becoming irrelevant in America, maybe I might just join the Communist Party. The ideology of the Reactionary Party violates my ethical values even more than does Satanism.

(You may have thought that I was going to have an in-house cookout on a charcoal grill, didn't you? I don't want to make it easy for you).

To make a reference to Gilbert and Sullivan... I will be making a list. You don't want to be on it.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#22
(11-14-2016, 01:41 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: So I should be thankful to work as a convenience-store clerk in a horrible part of the country and praise the new Great and Glorious Leader?

I have an idea of what I just might do on January 20, 2017. Since liberalism is becoming irrelevant in America, maybe I might just join the Communist Party. The ideology of the Reactionary Party violates my ethical values even more than does Satanism.

(You may have thought that I was going to have an in-house cookout on a charcoal grill, didn't you? I don't want to make it easy for you).

To make a reference to Gilbert and Sullivan... I will be making a list. You don't want to be on it.

Trump is not responsible for your career choices and geographic location.  As for the state of the economy, Trump didn't do that.  If the Republican Party violates your values more than Satanism then all I can say is that you have one screwed up set of ethical values.  That would go a long way towards explaining your on-line behavior.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#23
I also have been wondering what is the cause for him panicking about his career options and what it has to do with Trump. I wish he would explain why he thinks it has anything to do with Trump.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#24
(11-14-2016, 02:12 AM)taramarie Wrote: I also have been wondering what is the cause for him panicking about his career options and what it has to do with Trump. I wish he would explain why he thinks it has anything to do with Trump.

Its a bad case of cognitive dissonance so logic, reason and evidence don't matter to the person suffering this.  If anything Trump has always been clear about trying to improve the conditions of the average American.  No way to know if he will be successful but the status quo is simply not working.  When that happens, a course change is in order and Hillary was not that.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#25
(11-14-2016, 03:10 AM)Galen Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 02:12 AM)taramarie Wrote: I also have been wondering what is the cause for him panicking about his career options and what it has to do with Trump. I wish he would explain why he thinks it has anything to do with Trump.

Its a bad case of cognitive dissonance so logic, reason and evidence don't matter to the person suffering this.  If anything Trump has always been clear about trying to improve the conditions of the average American.  No way to know if he will be successful but the status quo is simply not working.  When that happens, a course change is in order and Hillary was not that.

I am here because my parents moved back to the hick town where they lived as children when I was unemployed... and I have since ended up as a caretaker for them. Now that they are gone I am stuck with an emptiness in a place that I outgrew every way but financially. The money is gone, and I am 60 with Asperger's - practically unemployable, and then only in jobs that are a travesty of a living. I wish I had the chance to do otherwise -- but that's how undiagnosed Asperger's works. It truly messes up the life of someone who has all sorts of raw ability, like me.


In Donald Trump I see a reckless, cruel, selfish leader who gets angry easily and turns to brutality when he does not get his way. In Congress we have people who believe that the other party is simply to obey the winners. One election, one time decides everything indefinitely. Life is to be nothing but sacrifice on behalf of the super-rich, the only people who matter.

Yes, I understand that many who voted for Trump thought that they were voting against an elite that they saw and thought hostile -- the Middle Class that does not appreciate country music, reality TV, and ultimate sports, who thinks that auto racing is a bore, and laughs at covers of the great bastion of journalism sold at grocery checkouts.  People who shout "Jail Hillary! exemplify the American equivalent of the "Two-Minute Hate" from 1984. Don't fool yourself. It isn't going to change. Those people who thought the Middle Class was bad are going to find out what evil is.

As a liberal with a conscience I expect to find myself increasingly alien in the country in which I was born. Many people have done what some of our ancestors did, taking off from places where they felt alien in their country because of their religion or their political view and going to America where those did one no harm. I may need to do the inverse.

So the common man must work harder and pay harsher taxes on behalf of the Master Class whose indulgence and power is the new measure of a right to get what it wants. Make America Great Again? As in the Gilded Age? With a norm of 70-hour workweeks and 40-year lifespans for industrial workers? Without old-age insurance or disability insurance? Without welfare? All so that elites can wax even fatter?  So what are we to find as comfort? A religion that tells us that only in return for unqualified obedience to God's Law (including some prescribed political choices) we might get into Heaven but for any slip-up even in voting we go to Hell?

I would reject that religion, an earthly Hell in itself.

Of course I belong elsewhere. Suffer with a smile -- that is out of my character. Even I can't keep that act up.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#26
(11-14-2016, 01:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: what would be your ideal career, Pbrower?

I'm not sure. With Asperger's, it is likely either academic or creative. The clumsiness that goes with 'my' Asperger's precludes science. I am high-functioning enough to teach. I should have gone in that direction in the 1970s, but everyone told me that new teachers weren;t being hired -- so you might as well go into business as a clerk.

Retail sales clerk with a college degree. I once got a raise only because my existing pay would have been below the minimum wage. I thought that by showing some loyalty I might show a desirable trait for something better.

Not knowing that I had Asperger's made me unaware of what a bad fit I was for allegedly easy jobs that 'anyone could do'.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#27
Brower, you need to calm down, people were doing the same kind of catastrophizing when Bush was elected in 2000.

In fact, I don't think I ever remember a time when the losing side of the presidential election DIDN'T thought it was the end of the world. I remember as a kid all the right-wingers ranting about Bill Clinton's "communist UN black helicopters".
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#28
Maybe. Enough has gone wrong with my life, and I see Donald Trump unlikely to do any good. I see no quick recovery in life, and I can see myself at the point of the ultimate surrender. Leave the world to those who can truly enjoy it, unlike me. All in all, this has so far been a grim, dreary, and largely-joyless world that I would not miss if I ended up in one of the gentler circles of Dante's Inferno.  Learning physics from Albert Einstein and getting painting lessons from Hokusai? I am ready now! That sounds far better than some insipid paradise for dullards that Fundamentalist Protestantism has to offer.

I know of people who will be perfectly happy working more hours for the indulgence of the Master Class because they are satisfied that God so wills. I have no such faith. I can never see unforced suffering as the Will of God; indeed, if it is the Will of God that someone have Parkinsonism or senile dementia as I saw in my parents to the exclusion of all else in life for much of five years then God is to be resisted.   

I did not fly off the handle as much with Dubya because he did not stoop to the same level of rancor against out-groups. So far as I know, the marital life of George W. Bush is completely unobjectionable. I never heard him brag about grabbing women by their crotches. Dubya was an orthodox conservative, and even if his inadequacies would be known, he at least would not be a classic sociopath. Dubya did not make the contradictory promises of a demagogue. The biggest joke about Donald Trump is that he calls himself "Christian".

I dread a Trump Presidency, especially when there are few checks upon him. I question whether I have much will to live in the event that I have some medical crisis in which the will to live is essential to survival.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#29
(11-14-2016, 11:22 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(11-12-2016, 08:48 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We have a chance of a revolution to topple the fascist regime of Donald Judas Trump. A Red revolution.

Red as in hammer-and-sickle motifs.

If we have a revolution I think it would be more like a hybrid of Communitarianism and the ideas laid out by Gary Hart in "Restoration of the Republic."

At some point I want to get some more in depth discussions going about that book / PhD thesis.

Communitarianism looks likely to become a form of tribalism under Trump. I think that people will become even more connected to identity politics. But tribalism is inevitable in a political order that divides people into 'good' and 'bad' based upon ethnicity, religion, class, and the like. Let's just hope that the 'white' tribe splinters, as it might if the demands of the Trump Administration become inhuman.

...Liberalism goes into hibernation except at the local level (a city like Ann Arbor) and the state (like New York) level. It goes into hibernation in most states  for the next year and a half (when governors like Walker, Scott, and Snyder are up for re-election or must give way to open-seat elections). There will be plenty of nastiness to defend by any Reactionary Governor seeking a third term or any Republican running to follow in the open seat. Where I live (a very right-wing community in a midwestern state) I will be tempted to go on protests in some cities 80 to 120 miles away. Nice excuse to see a city and get away from this soul-crushing peasant village.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#30
(11-14-2016, 05:48 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 01:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: what would be your ideal career, Pbrower?

I'm not sure. With Asperger's, it is likely either academic or creative. The clumsiness that goes with 'my' Asperger's precludes science. I am high-functioning enough to teach. I should have gone in that direction in the 1970s, but everyone told me that new teachers weren;t being hired -- so you might as well go into business as a clerk.

Retail sales clerk with a college degree. I once got a raise only because my existing pay would have been below the minimum wage. I thought that by showing some loyalty I might show a desirable trait for something better.

Not knowing that I had Asperger's made me unaware of what a bad fit I was for allegedly easy jobs that 'anyone could do'.
What is stopping you from pursuing an academic or creative career now?
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#31
(11-14-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 05:48 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 01:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: what would be your ideal career, Pbrower?

I'm not sure. With Asperger's, it is likely either academic or creative. The clumsiness that goes with 'my' Asperger's precludes science. I am high-functioning enough to teach. I should have gone in that direction in the 1970s, but everyone told me that new teachers weren;t being hired -- so you might as well go into business as a clerk.

Retail sales clerk with a college degree. I once got a raise only because my existing pay would have been below the minimum wage. I thought that by showing some loyalty I might show a desirable trait for something better.

Not knowing that I had Asperger's made me unaware of what a bad fit I was for allegedly easy jobs that 'anyone could do'.
What is stopping you from pursuing an academic or creative career now?


Six-zero.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#32
(11-14-2016, 03:26 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 05:48 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 01:10 AM)taramarie Wrote: what would be your ideal career, Pbrower?

I'm not sure. With Asperger's, it is likely either academic or creative. The clumsiness that goes with 'my' Asperger's precludes science. I am high-functioning enough to teach. I should have gone in that direction in the 1970s, but everyone told me that new teachers weren;t being hired -- so you might as well go into business as a clerk.

Retail sales clerk with a college degree. I once got a raise only because my existing pay would have been below the minimum wage. I thought that by showing some loyalty I might show a desirable trait for something better.

Not knowing that I had Asperger's made me unaware of what a bad fit I was for allegedly easy jobs that 'anyone could do'.
What is stopping you from pursuing an academic or creative career now?


Six-zero.
Just a number. I have known people way older than you who have been in school, gotten degrees and chosen a different career. No, I think it could be partially depression that is holding you back. You wanna do it DO it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#33
(11-14-2016, 11:36 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 07:58 AM)Odin Wrote: Brower, you need to calm down, people were doing the same kind of catastrophizing when Bush was elected in 2000.

In fact, I don't think I ever remember a time when the losing side of the presidential election DIDN'T thought it was the end of the world. I remember as a kid all the right-wingers ranting about Bill Clinton's "communist UN black helicopters".

This is different.

Bush was a main stream Republican. I know that many hard core Leftists lump everyone on the Right together, but that is wrong headed.

Trump is Alt-Right / NBP / Red-Brown. We have never had someone this radical as PotUS. The camel's nose is now inside the tent.

All I'm saying is that it is too early to start freaking out. It's still too early to know yet if it is going to be Bannon, Priebus, or Pence who is the driving force in Trump's White House. He might shock us all and be a reasonable, sane moderate for all we know.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#34
America is the body. It has a sickness. Trump is the example of what that sickness has developed into. That is why it is now being addressed and why some people are starting to see signs of the 1T ahead. It is making some people think. Check out Prince Ea videos on this. Interesting way of looking at it.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#35
The working out of the Crisis is simply the most dangerous part of the 4T. This will likely be a time of great civil unrest, economic distress, and even political instability. America has never had a despotic ruler, and it is questionable whether Americans will take well to a leader who imposes great suffering on behalf of economic elites. I see ethnic groups becoming veritable tribes... and regional divisions becoming dangerous. Add to this an unsteady hand in foreign policy, and the international scene can go very bad very fast.

Transformation of America into a social order with plantation-style inequality will not be easy. I would expect terrorism to flourish in a resistance against economic elites. I can imagine kidnappings... and massacres.

This 4T probably ends with an America very different from what Donald Trump wants. It could end in climactic violence that forces Americans to decide whether they want to split into separate communities with a map very different from anything that we now know except for locations of cities and bodies of water. Even the 50-state pattern could become a thing of the past. Names of the sundry successor states are mostly beyond current imagination.

We could see independent city states in seas of rural areas, with areas just beyond the urban fringe being as different from the nearby cities as ... well, choose your analogy. Rural America and urban America are now very different countries.

About all that might be left would be easy travel between the independent political entities and a customs union. That may be all that anyone wants.

The 4T will end when people quit seeking to kill each other over differences. That might not be enough to save America. We could end up with a map of Germany around 1700. Of course there was no Germany except as a linguistic zone.

People will wonder how so impressive a political order as the USA could shatter -- and the explanations will be:

1. People gaming and perverting the political order perhaps even into tyranny.
2. Polarization of America along regional, religious, and ethnic lines.
3. People demanding the subjection of others and those called to subject themselves refusing to do so.
4. Atrocities.

As the political reality stabilizes and violence abates, the 1T will be underway. Population exchanges will supplant massacres. people How things are in an area around Indianapolis could be very different from areas only 40 miles away from the city limits, and much more similar to a city so far away as Seattle. I see no possibility of any homogenization of the rural-urban dispute.

We are not in the climax yet. We aren't even near it, most likely about six years from now.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#36
"People will wonder how so impressive a political order as the USA could shatter "
I do not know if Americans have noticed this but many around the world are not impressed with America at all. Instead they shake their heads at what they hear goes on. May be painful to hear for some proud Americans but it is the truth.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#37
(11-14-2016, 09:02 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 08:11 PM)taramarie Wrote: "People will wonder how so impressive a political order as the USA could shatter "
I do not know if Americans have noticed this but many around the world are not impressed with America at all. Instead they shake their heads at what they hear goes on. May be painful to hear for some proud Americans but it is the truth.

This is what you get when what started out as a maritime (and therefore, reasonably globally connected and worldly) former British colony expands into a continental power. The vast interior turns into Slobovistan. An insular, inward looking people evolves in such zones. But, those who people the coasts* remain globally connected and worldly. Rancor arises, as the coastal people look down on the inlanders and vice versa. The supposed "Alanticist" vs "Eurasianist" style of conflict comes into our own sphere as a domestic conflict. Wish us luck!

* About the Gulf Coast and Southern Atlantic Coast. Somehow those areas did not retain the maritime connection with Europe. It's understandable, given the gazillion islands in the Gulf and Caribbean. It has its own type of insularity.
Oh believe me I am wishing you guys only the very best. I hope it is all sorted eventually. The toxic division is insane over there.
1984 Apollonian Civic
ISFP - The Artist.






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#38
(11-14-2016, 09:02 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(11-14-2016, 08:11 PM)taramarie Wrote: "People will wonder how so impressive a political order as the USA could shatter "
I do not know if Americans have noticed this but many around the world are not impressed with America at all. Instead they shake their heads at what they hear goes on. May be painful to hear for some proud Americans but it is the truth.

This is what you get when what started out as a maritime (and therefore, reasonably globally connected and worldly) former British colony expands into a continental power. The vast interior turns into Slobovistan. An insular, inward looking people evolves in such zones. But, those who people the coasts* remain globally connected and worldly. Rancor arises, as the coastal people look down on the inlanders and vice versa. The supposed "Alanticist" vs "Eurasianist" style of conflict comes into our own sphere as a domestic conflict. Wish us luck!

* About the Gulf Coast and Southern Atlantic Coast. Somehow those areas did not retain the maritime connection with Europe. It's understandable, given the gazillion islands in the Gulf and Caribbean. It has its own type of insularity.

With America the divide is cultural, low-brow vs. high-brow. Donald Trump is an economic elitist playing the undereducated  white people against minorities of all classes and the middle class of all ethnicities on behalf of people who think much like feudal lords: that people exist at the privilege of the lord, abandoning all hopes and desires to that lord in return for survival at the lord's terms... and that if one refuses to accept the feudal lord as the unqualified leader one is to be killed.

What does the low-brow culture offer? NASCAR racing, Ultimate Fighting, tabloid media, country music, FoX News... I certainly belong in a different country.

This will go badly.  I fear the community in which I live because the other side gloats with anger about its victory. It is my fault that I cannot be a cultural simpleton willing to take a menial job for starvation pay.

So why do I not belong there? I think, therefore I am a traitor.

Donald Trump could be the Slobodan Milosevic of America even to the point of stoking anti-Muslim sentiments. I could never convert to Islam, but at the least I can recognize its virtues just by contrasting heavily-Muslim Dearborn against godless Southwest Detroit. Addicts, drunks, whores, and pimps are busted if they venture  into family-friendly Dearborn. Of course one need not be a Muslim to like things that way. Many Christians and Jews have no problem with such.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#39
So maybe I have my own idea of how a 1T can be: diverse in opportunities based upon talent but without oppression; accepting of cultural and religious diversity; respectful of formal learning; family-friendly because such gives security to the people who most need it; giving plenty of room for small business; accepting of divergences that do no harm (can I compare Asperger's syndrome to homosexuality? Both are harmless to the overall society, and nobody would ever choose either. They can make pariahs out of people who might otherwise make worthy contributions).

And surely contemptuous of Donald Trump for being its antithesis!
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#40
Diversity and acceptance of diversity sound nice, but unfortunately the whole point of a first turning is convergence of culture and elimination of diversity.
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