Democrats organize to fight back

[Eric the Green]

The Number of People Who Regret Voting for Trump Is Growing

Marie Claire
Rebecca Gale
March 17, 2017
https://www.yahoo.com/news/number-people...11003.html

A new national poll released this week shows that Trump supporters increasingly feel that he's "going too far," is falling short of their expectations of him for unifying the country, and is "getting sidetracked by things that aren't important." All of which amounts to an uptick in "Trump Regretters" (i.e. people who voted for him but no longer support him) since November.

But a majority of Trump supporters still feel the President is "keeping his promises" and "getting things done."

Last month, half of Trump voters felt he was "surrounding himself with the best people." This week, 39 percent do.

But Trump-who last month tweeted "Any negative polls are fake news"-may have cause for concern if support among his base continues to fall, said Margie Omero, executive vice president for public affairs at PSB Research, who spearheaded the poll.

"He has no crossover appeal," Omero told MarieClaire.com, citing other polling outlets that have found Trump to be strong with his supporters, but dangerously weak with Democrats and independents. "So if he starts to slip with his base-as he has in our poll-where does he have room to grow?"

"He has to hold onto his base going into the midterms," she added. "If this slide continues, he is going to have some serious trouble."

Omero believes Trump has been operating largely in campaign mode since being elected. "If he was trying to reach out to Democrats, he wouldn't be doing the Muslim ban, rolling back climate change efforts, or making up accusations against Obama. He'd be focused on infrastructure funding, or meeting with CEOs, and he'd throw away his phone. He's done very little to extend an olive branch to the people who didn't vote for him, or to try to heal our country's partisan divisions."

Another cautionary flag for Trump in the PSB findings comes from Clinton voters: Voters who were "With Her" last fall are twice as likely as Trump voters to have taken some sort of politically-motivated action since January: contacting their congressional rep, donating to a cause, or switching away from a product or service whose leadership didn't share their values.

"People are looking for ways to take action," said Omero. "There may not be a vote until next November, but there's still plenty to be done between now and then."

[pbrower2a]

(03-12-2017, 03:32 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-12-2017, 01:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The anti-Trump resistance must be bigger than the Tea Party, and for good reasons.

Do you have any numbers for this?  From what I've seen its mostly wing nuts screeching in the streets.  I've been to Tea Party events and Occupy events.  I'm not seeing anything similar to Trump.  Or is this just wishful thinking?

Which demonstrates what you want to see.

Quote:

Quote:First, Donald Trump has the majority of an authoritarian Establishment on its side

And yet it is the Democrats and their darlings in Tech who want to censor the internet, even censor the President himself.  Are you sure it is the GOP that has an Authoritarian Establishment?  I mean there are authoritarians in the GOP but they are in the DEMs too.  But whose calling for censorship and who isn't?

That's a rhetorical question.

To protect patents and copyrights. I can easily end up in a position in which such becomes a very good thing for me.

Quote:

Quote:-- people who hold that people whose beliefs are contrary to theirs deserves to be rendered permanently irrelevant.

Strange, I don't recall any Tea Partiers or hell even all 5 of the Klansmen in the country calling for punching communists, yet "it's no crime to punch a nazi" (never mind that while there are nazis around they clearly are not the likes of Milo Yiannopolos a gay jew who won't shut up about black cock).

Anybody who doesn't hate Nazis and their ilk is either grossly ignorant or perverse. Heck, I have a love-hate relationship with the German part of my ancestry solely because of Nazis. Fascists often have weird obsessions about sexuality.

Quote:

Quote: Second, Donald Trump is a dictator, and he has the legislative branch under control. The only questions about the Trump dictatorship are of its competence and ruthlessness. Third, an American dictatorship would be difficult to escape and could get away from much.

Obama had the legislative branch under his control from 09-11.  I notice you didn't call him a dictator then.  Sure the GOP hacks on the board certainly did, but you didn't.

At least President Obama tried to get Republicans on his side on legislative issues. He did not try to make them permanently irrelevant.

Quote:So then if Obama can have Congress in the control of his party, and be president and not be a dictator then how come Trump is a dictator under the same conditions?  Because he's not on your particular team?

Partisan hack detected.  Don't feel bad--it isn't news to anyone.

I admit to being partisan.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:So we have no heritage of executive despotism? Neither did the Germans going into 1933.

Are you sure about that?  Kaiser Willhelm II ran a pretty tight ship, as did Bismark before him.  Or is that Fake History?

Neither set up extermination camps. Both Bismarck's Prussia and (until 1914) Imperial Germany had active, divided legislatures with political competition and responsibility for the national budget. (I have no intention of letting Wilhelm II off for the genocide against the Herero). There was some modicum of competition for seats in the legislature. Hitler culled the Reichstag until it was nothing more than an echo chamber for his agenda.

Maybe we are now seeing how incompetent a leader "Daddy" is. His style has been utterly despotic.

Quote:

Quote:Except for those Americans who have first-hand experience under a dictatorial regime we don't fully understand what we are dealing with. (OK, blacks of a certain age in the Jim Crow South... but that would now be people over age 60 who might know the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission as a KGB-like organization in the service of segregation).

I know lots of people who have first hand experience with dictatorships--primarily Latin Americans but my Neighbor Lady survived the Holocaust (yeah she's pretty old but we check up on her...nice lady).  Both types of such persons have detected no dictatorships.

Heck, I had a near-neighbor who was born in the Russian Empire -- in Lithuania. She lived to be over 100. I never thought to ask her about the politics that she knew as a child or a young adult... mercifully her family got out of Lithuania when the leaving was good.

I've known people from Chile, Argentina, Iran, and Vietnam.Tyranny is awful. I'm in the wrong part of the country to know many Cubans.

Quote:I'm sorry PBR but to put it quite simply mature democracies have no history of reverting to autocracies.  No matter how much anyone may wish for that to happen.

We Americans are no longer a people mature politically, culturally, or morally. Enough of us fell for a crass demagogue, a symptom of impatience and political immaturity.

[Kinser79]

  PBR, must you unnecessarily clutter the tags?  That question is rhetorical--of course you do.  It distracts from your lack of arguments.

PBR Wrote:Which demonstrates what you want to see.

So the answer to my question is that you don't have any actual numbers to back up your claim that there is a large anti-Trump "resistance".  Good to know.

PBR Wrote:To protect patents and copyrights. I can easily end up in a position in which such becomes a very good thing for me.

Facebook "fact checking" news stories from alternative media, youtube restricting alternative media so you have to log in to see it and HRC calling to shut down Infowars and Breitbart have nothing to do with patents or copyrights.  Good to see you're keeping up with your tradition of utter clueless-ness though.

PBR Wrote:Anybody who doesn't hate Nazis and their ilk is either grossly ignorant or perverse. Heck, I have a love-hate relationship with the German part of my ancestry solely because of Nazis. Fascists often have weird obsessions about sexuality.

One needn't like Nazis to support their right to speak.  The actual liberal position (not that you are a liberal--you're a regressive leftist) would be to allow all points of view space to be aired.  The best disinfectant for bad ideas is sunlight and public scrutiny.

Funny thing though, you bring up your German ancestry, yet you would likely support virtual book burning.

PBR Wrote:At least President Obama tried to get Republicans on his side on legislative issues. He did not try to make them permanently irrelevant.

That's not how the game is played.  Politics is about power.  As for making the Dims permanently irrelevant, they don't need Daddy's help.  They're doing just fine on their own.

PBR Wrote:some stuff about extermination camps that is irrelevant to executive despotism

As usual you completely miss the point.  Fascism has never arisen in a country with mature democratic institutions.  Do those countries have individuals that might subscribe to fascism?  Sure.  The UK had Oswald Mosley after all, and Charles Lindbergh Jr admired Hitler.  Did either ever have a chance at wielding power?  No--never.

PBR Wrote:We Americans are no longer a people mature politically, culturally, or morally. Enough of us fell for a crass demagogue, a symptom of impatience and political immaturity.

I would contend that a symptom of political immaturity was the assumption on the Left that HRC could run on "I have vagina" and get the presidency. 

Everyone else already has realized that we can either have identity politics for everyone which means you have to have a seat at the table for the likes of Spencer and Taylor or we have identity politics for no one which means running on being black or a woman or a queer is off the table.

Thankfully I think that since this is a Mega-Unraveling what we'll see is by the end of the 4T is a killing of the old awakening and a return to more rational discourse based on ideology.  I'm seeing it already with Zeds (not surprising really since Xers focus on ideology too).

[Eric the Green]

It is clear that Trump's man is the one who is for censorship, given his FCC decisions and his attack on internet neutrality, which would give more internet speed to big companies. Not to mention Daddy Drump's attack on the free press. No, the attack on the free press is all from the Drump side, not the Democratic side.

Reports I have seen say that the Trump protests are dozens of times larger than the stupid Tea Party madness. The "women's" marches on Jan 21 were among the largest ever in history; hundreds of thousands in many countries each. The one in DC dwarfed Drump's inauguration. Ryancare was defeated by the massive town hall protests.

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/01/21/p...bined.html

Hillary spoke like a mature leader offering real, well-researched proposals. Anyone with any ability to read and observe could see that, as could anyone who paid attention during the debates. A mature, thoughtful, compassionate policy wonk was defeated in an 18th century outdated voting system that protected slaves by a racist, xenophobic, sociopathic, thoughtless, narcissistic pig.

[Eric the Green]

Meet the man who may end gerrymandering: A retired Wisconsin law professor’s Supreme Court case could save democracy

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/26/meet-the...democracy/

[Eric the Green]

I'm with Daily Kos on this. I signed. Shut it down!


Eric, sign the petition to Senate Democrats: Delay everything. Absolutely everything.

Sign the petition

Senate Republicans just killed the filibuster on Supreme Court nominees. They did so in order to confirm a nominee by a President who has a sub-40% approval rating and is under FBI investigation regarding Russian efforts to sabotage his election.

Senate Democrats have absolutely no choice now. They must obstruct all business in the Senate. This includes, but is not limited to:

Denying unanimous consent on everything;
Forcing regular quorum calls;
Continuously speaking on the floor of the Senate to use all 30-hours of post-cloture debate time.

When Democrats are unable to stop really bad legislation or appointees, they must at least use all tools available to delay the damage.

Sign the petition to Senate Democrats: Delay everything. Absolutely everything.
Sign the petition

We have a year and a half before the midterm elections, and three and a half years before the next presidential election.

We are counting on Senate Democrats to delay and obstruct all Senate business from this moment on in order to minimize the total damage Trump and Republicans can inflict, as well as to be a voice for the resistance on Capitol Hill.

Sign the petition to Senate Democrats: Delay everything. Absolutely everything.
Sign the petition

Keep fighting,
Paul Hogarth, Daily Kos



Daily Kos, PO Box 70036, Oakland, CA, 94612.

[pbrower2a]

The Reactionaries have now steamrollered a pet pick for the Supreme Court; I expect this to be just the start of transforming America into the purest plutocracy since the Confederate States of America. Unfortunately the Confederacy is a part of our political heritage.

Welcome to the Union of Christian and Corporate States. I find the value of life greatly diminished in America.

[Eric the Green]

Eric,

Thank you so much for every bit of money, time, energy, and passion you have given to this Supreme Court fight.

It's a fight we needed to be in and, even though Neil Gorsuch will now become a Supreme Court justice, the progressive movement won in some big ways by fighting with everything we had.

Together, we exposed Gorsuch for the dangerous extremist he is. And we mustered the votes to BLOCK his confirmation under the longstanding rules.

We didn't make Mitch McConnell and every single Republican senator change those rules -- by pulling the trigger on the "nuclear option" to ram Gorsuch through with a simple majority. That was their choice -- one that exposed their lack of integrity and lack of respect for our democracy. And it was a tremendously unpopular choice that we are going to do everything we can to make them pay for in 2018 and beyond.

Republicans have shown over these last several years that they live by what Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne called "the politics of power-grabbing and bullying." It was time for Democrats to stand up, and with very few exceptions, stand up they did.

But the reason they stood up was because of grassroots pressure and your incredible efforts. Red-state Democrats like Jon Tester, Claire McCaskill, and others deserve our appreciation. And Minority Leader Chuck Schumer was nothing short of a hero in championing our cause in the Senate and doing what was needed to rally his caucus to deny Gorsuch 60 votes.

Those who said this fight wasn't worth it or that we should wait until the next Supreme Court nomination, perhaps to fill the seat of one of the current moderates on the Court, were dreadfully wrong. McConnell would have just pulled this move to ram through the next nominee, another one hand-picked by the Right Wing. It would have been a grave mistake not to stand up and call out Republicans' unyielding extremism in this fight.

Because the progressive movement and most Senate Democrats stood up, we'll be in a better position for the next fight, not a worse one. Laying down and giving in without a fight would have been a disaster for the resistance movement over the hard four years to come.

There's no sugarcoating the sad fact that Gorsuch is an extremist who will do vast harm to countless Americans on the Supreme Court. But there is value in fighting. And from this fight, future victories will be born.

You should feel immensely proud of all that you have done, for all that we have accomplished together, and for all that we will accomplish as we work tirelessly to hold Republicans accountable for their reckless power grab.

Thanks again!

Onward,

Michael Keegan, President

[Ragnarök_62]

(11-14-2016, 02:52 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: So the Democrats are going to double down on their losing strategy?  Excellent.

Yes, I do believe you're correct there.
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/na...trategy-in

We Democrats need to dispense with assorted litmus tests and ideological rigidity.  What plays in Sacramento for example, will not, ever fully play in Oklahoma City. Yeah, I've been thinking this over, ... a lot. After all, there are, believe it or not, a lot of planks what will work in both places. As such:

1. Adopt a 50 state strategy, like yesterday, man. Let's look at issues that make , lil ole me a Democrat.

a.  Access to health care, NOT health insurance.  Democrats need to grow a pair and just go with Medicare for all. That of course includes a funding mechanism.  I'd ditch payroll taxes. [I can't figure out the infatuation with Democrats with payroll taxes. Going forward, this can't possible work. The number of employed folks is falling which means the tax base is rotten. Let's take Trump's "border tax" and substitute a VAT tax. Yup, lots of folks here know my own favoritism wrt VAT. So, just 2 things need to happen to implement that plank. The first is to discard the Medicare part of the payroll tax. Next set the age of Medicare eligibility to 0.  Now put Tricare, Medicaid, and any other government program out of business since they now are redundant. With a single program, the administrative costs will go down. A counter to Republican nagging wrt a tax is simple. The VAT tax will replace insurance premiums. [I don't care if health insurance companies sell Medigap insurance, or concierge insurance for those who want that].  Republicans can bitch all they want about "new taxes". I'm betting most folks would love to just ditch private health insurance because of coding hassles, THEY are hopelessly bureaucratic entities like no other.
b. Legalize drug imports. There was a bill drafted by Bernie Sanders.  YO, Democrats, make the vote on that an issue. It's Republicans who want to deny folks access to cheaper alternatives. I've nagged my representatives about voting no on this. I in fact called them shills for Big Pharma!.

c. Legalize weed. Weed is a veritable pharmacopoeia, Schedule I is just some lame political thing. Rags wonders if Big Pharma/ Big Cotton are behind said scheduling.

d. Tax reform:  I don't think any destitute/working poor/lower middle class/middle class voter benefits from our spaghetti code tax code. Here's the place for repeal/replace. All income, regardless of source shall be taxed at the same rate. There shall be no loopholes/special cases/ etc.  Just tote up your income and apply the proper bracket.  I don't care if HR block /accountants lose business.  Tax preparation is an utter waste of economic resources, man.

e. The immigration/farm worker mess.  Let's try this out.  Dunno what others think.  And.. so. I think a good compromise would be to have a "guest worker" program.  If Mexicans , for example are doing stuff US citizens won't do, then here's a plan. A Mexican citizen can register as a guest worker. This person would then be issued a legit TIN and thus would not be underground anymore and subject to exploitation.  Worker exploitation screws all workers, not just those who are not legal. The guest workers would be afforded the same rights as citizen workers, except for access to social programs. That's the compromise.  Nextly, if certain states want to pay for additional benefits, then that's OK as well.

f. Global warming.  I think us Democrats have that issue pretty well settled. No change needed here.

g. Trashing the environment.  Hopefully , add some sort of deposit on plastic stuff. Most plastics are forever. Plastic in future rock layers will be a good marker for the Anthropocene.

[Eric the Green]

The plastic bag bans are great. I don't know why some hicks in the CA sticks can't put the stuff they buy at Walmart into a bag they bring or buy. They have the same ability to bring a bag as hipsters like me do. Their arms work just as well, and maybe better.

The hick areas were pissed already. Almost every state has strong right-wing rural areas. The Bakersfield/lower valley area and the mountains in the northeast might as well be in Idaho or Kansas, and have been that way for decades. I say, let them be pissed along with the folks in West Virginia and Kentucky and Alabama. Same types.

CA knows what's best, compared to most other states. We've cleaned up gerrymandering; that alone puts us miles ahead of others. We have legal weed now too, as long as Trump/Sessions don't knock us down. We're the leader in energy and climate. Imagine a state as large as ours, #1 in population, just about right on top in energy efficiency. Now we just need to get rid of the death penalty. In that respect, we are still barbaric.

I don't see how the new ammo laws, which the voters passed easily, put gun hobbyists out of business; iirc those are limits on how much ammo you can buy per gun. It doesn't raise the price of ammo.

To those who say liberals should ditch the gun issue, I say simply, we can't, because we care. That's what liberals do. If you want to be armed against the state (meaning in general, not CA), I understand. But that doesn't mean that the state you are fighting, is going to agree with you.

When civil war or revolution beckons, all bets are off, and it may well be time to get armed. But it will take far more than armed citizens to win anyway. If possible, a non-violent approach is best, depending on how tyrannical the opponent is. Clearly, non-violent revolution did not work in Syria, for example. They faced a monster named Assad.

[Ragnarök_62]

(04-25-2017, 05:39 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(04-25-2017, 04:46 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(11-14-2016, 02:52 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: So the Democrats are going to double down on their losing strategy?  Excellent.

Yes, I do believe you're correct there.
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/na...trategy-in

We Democrats need to dispense with assorted litmus tests and ideological rigidity.  What plays in Sacramento for example, will not, ever fully play in Oklahoma City. Yeah, I've been thinking this over, ... a lot. After all, there are, believe it or not, a lot of planks what will work in both places. As such:

1. Adopt a 50 state strategy, like yesterday, man. Let's look at issues that make , lil ole me a Democrat.

a.  Access to health care, NOT health insurance.  Democrats need to grow a pair and just go with Medicare for all. That of course includes a funding mechanism.  I'd ditch payroll taxes. [I can't figure out the infatuation with Democrats with payroll taxes. Going forward, this can't possible work. The number of employed folks is falling which means the tax base is rotten. Let's take Trump's "border tax" and substitute a VAT tax. Yup, lots of folks here know my own favoritism wrt VAT. So, just 2 things need to happen to implement that plank. The first is to discard the Medicare part of the payroll tax. Next set the age of Medicare eligibility to 0.  Now put Tricare, Medicaid, and any other government program out of business since they now are redundant. With a single program, the administrative costs will go down. A counter to Republican nagging wrt a tax is simple. The VAT tax will replace insurance premiums. [I don't care if health insurance companies sell Medigap insurance, or concierge insurance for those who want that].  Republicans can bitch all they want about "new taxes". I'm betting most folks would love to just ditch private health insurance because of coding hassles, THEY are hopelessly bureaucratic entities like no other.
b. Legalize drug imports. There was a bill drafted by Bernie Sanders.  YO, Democrats, make the vote on that an issue. It's Republicans who want to deny folks access to cheaper alternatives. I've nagged my representatives about voting no on this. I in fact called them shills for Big Pharma!.

c. Legalize weed. Weed is a veritable pharmacopoeia, Schedule I is just some lame political thing. Rags wonders if Big Pharma/ Big Cotton are behind said scheduling.

d. Tax reform:  I don't think any destitute/working poor/lower middle class/middle class voter benefits from our spaghetti code tax code. Here's the place for repeal/replace. All income, regardless of source shall be taxed at the same rate. There shall be no loopholes/special cases/ etc.  Just tote up your income and apply the proper bracket.  I don't care if HR block /accountants lose business.  Tax preparation is an utter waste of economic resources, man.

e. The immigration/farm worker mess.  Let's try this out.  Dunno what others think.  And.. so. I think a good compromise would be to have a "guest worker" program.  If Mexicans , for example are doing stuff US citizens won't do, then here's a plan. A Mexican citizen can register as a guest worker. This person would then be issued a legit TIN and thus would not be underground anymore and subject to exploitation.  Worker exploitation screws all workers, not just those who are not legal. The guest workers would be afforded the same rights as citizen workers, except for access to social programs. That's the compromise.  Nextly, if certain states want to pay for additional benefits, then that's OK as well.

f. Global warming.  I think us Democrats have that issue pretty well settled. No change needed here.

g. Trashing the environment.  Hopefully , add some sort of deposit on plastic stuff. Most plastics are forever. Plastic in future rock layers will be a good marker for the Anthropocene.

You might be surprised. Just now the urban / non-hick part of CA is ruling with an iron fist but there are plenty of hick areas that are very pissed. Among the more recent insults are gun laws (and now, ammo laws) on top of the existing pile of them, which essentially put shooters with limited means out of business. Another recent insult hitting the inland / rural folk is a plastic bag ban. Bag bans are really neat for hipsters (and their moms and dads - EtG's subculture) who buy all their groceries and stuff at Trader Joe's and Whole Paycheck but for salt of the earth folk at Walmart / Food Inc / Grocery Outlet they are hell.

1. I get the gun debate stuff. I'd prefer a compromise where that's just a state option and leave the Federal Government out.  I see no reason to have the BATF around. Alcohol and tobacco are just legal drugs, so the FDA should run the show there. Arkansas legalized weed and Oklahoma would have legalized weed if it weren't for our lame , dumb fuck Attorney General who rewrote the petition language such that the petition writers vacated there stuff. We'll give it another go in 2018 but that doesn't solve the basic problem, GOP control. Oklahoma will forever be a polluted , education stunted state , unless we wise up to the GOP agenda. Look, I'm kicking myself for moving back here to be with family.  If there's a way, any way, I'd move away from this hell hole. Oklahoma keeps regressing, more and more.  My youngest sister tried to get on Obama care, BUT guess what? Oklahoma didn't do the Medicaid expansion and she literally blew up when we applied for her Obamacare.  She was fucked, literally.  She made too much for the regular medicaid , and too little to get the subsidy.  She has Bipolar like I do.  So damn the GOP to hell, damn them forever for fucking over family. Anyone who makes less than $30,000 / year is an idiot.
I'm just venting , sorry, there XY_MOX_4AD, it's not you, it's not the forum, it's not even the DNC's screw ups, but shit , man, the GOP is just getting to be just plain evil. If you're a member of the working poor economic class, the GOP has no use for you. They are the party of the MIC, the party of Big Pharma, the party of Big Ag, the party of just plain simple evil. They are also the party of "who gives a fuck about privacy". Damn, them to hell, damn them to hell, may the GOP and especially the "Freedom Caucus" burn forever in hell. So... perhaps Eric is right, some people do in fact choose ignorance over enlightenment. I read Eric's posts.  Perhaps he's right.  As time passes, the more I long for that second choice, Leadville, CO.  I fucking should have moved there instead of Oklahoma. I think the folks of Colorado are more aligned with my own political views. I also know that living at 10,000 feet up is actually healthy. You get "free exercise" there.

2. I'm a give and take sort of person. I'm not going to dictate the rules for California because I don't live there. As for Oklahoma, I think the DNC has a chance if they drop the regressive left stuff about being PC. PC is something that really grates. Oklahoma does have a lot of mixed Native American/Euro Americans. With that said, there is no use for PC stuff at all. We do want a race agnostic government. So the DNC , if it were wise , would just drop that, because it doesn't work. 

3. Hicks:   Guns/ammo are yeah, a big deal. I'd prefer the DNC just let sleeping dogs lie on that one. As for the plastics problem, there is an opening.  Plastic litter winds up in water ways.  Hicks go fishing and hunting.  One needs to link plastic pollution to some sort of degradation of wildlife supply.  Some plastics via endocrine disruption turn male species into females. Now, tie that into feminiziation of humans. So, if you're a "real man", do you want "man boobs", infertility, shrunk penises, and etc. ?

4. I grew up with paper sacks.  Clue me, clue me, why do paper sacks suck so much? I know they hold more groceries.  The only folks I can see who may have a problem are the Walmart cart drivers. If yer fat as a sow, perhaps 5 pounds is all your body can carry allow.  Just look how Walmart clashes with the human genome.





Humans are the penultimate predators. We attained that status as being the ultimate endurance predator.
The lack of fur, the ability to store away calories as fat, and the smarts to know the prey did that.  Walmart really messes that up with the fact there's no hunt , no effort to get the calories.

[Bob Butler 54]

(04-26-2017, 05:36 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Humans are the penultimate predators. We attained that status as being the ultimate endurance predator.
The lack of fur, the ability to store away calories as fat, and the smarts to know the prey did that.  Walmart really messes that up with the fact there's no hunt , no effort to get the calories.

I'm not sure you can blame Wall Mart for humans evolving out of the endurance predator role.  I think bows, arrows and agriculture beat them to it.  

Sides, it was a team effort.  The dogs did the endurance predator end of things.  The humans with weapons eventually caught up and did the killing.

[pbrower2a]

Endurance predator? I did some edits on "superpredator" and "apex predator" in Wikipedia, and I insisted that the predatory team of "Homo tigris" and "Canis tigris" is as lethal as any single land predator, including Panthera tigris (tiger) or Ursus maritimus (polar bear), in much of the world. Dogs are as monstrous as any predators, and all that keeps them from being man-eaters is their good behavior.

Needless to say, our genetic material does not suit us well to being of the same size as bears.  Longevity has its virtues, like living long enough to be grandparents or to take the grandparent role. The land animal closest to us in raw intelligence is the elephant, a creature that you do not want to contest in a war of wits. Elephants have a very long gestation period, and they have potential lifespans near ours... and they assume the grandparent role competently. But they are made for extreme bulk that makes them unsuitable prey for even lions and saltwater crocodiles.

I admit to having used those scooters -- when I had a gout attack. If you have never had a gout attack (it feels like a broken bone), you might not understand my need for the cart at the time.

[Bob Butler 54]

I understand 'endurance predator' means one that can keep on running. There are lots of ways a predator can become dangerous to prey, or how prey can defend themselves. One human strength in the hunter-gatherer era was long distance running. We're good at marathons. There are lots of species who can out sprint us, but if we can keep to the trail there aren't a lot of species that can keep going for the long haul.

Dogs are one of them. Like us, dogs are pack hunters, and their scent scent allows them to follow many a trail that humans would lose. Humans with any sort of weaponry, be it as simple as thrown rocks and clubs, can do the killing part well. For a time, that strategy and team was impressive.

[pbrower2a]

(04-27-2017, 10:06 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I understand 'endurance predator' means one that can keep on running.  There are lots of ways a predator can become dangerous to prey, or how prey can defend themselves.  One human strength in the hunter-gatherer era was long distance running.  We're good at marathons.  There are lots of species who can out sprint us, but if we can keep to the trail there aren't a lot of species that can keep going for the long haul.

Dogs are one of them.  Like us, dogs are pack hunters, and their scent scent allows them to follow many a trail that humans would lose.  Humans with any sort of weaponry, be it as simple as thrown rocks and clubs, can do the killing part well.  For a time, that strategy and team was impressive.

Wolves stage their attacks so that a deer runs a gauntlet of killers. As one wolf (dogs are still wolves) approaches exhaustion, another is waiting. The deer eventually tires, and the  other wolves (or dogs) have their feast as they come to eat the deer. Our dogs don't get to form packs with other dogs, but the extended human family has much the same structure of a wolf pack that a dog can fit into almost by instinct.  Dogs are still wolves. Their domestication has made them no less lethal -- just more predictable.

[Bob Butler 54]

(04-28-2017, 10:07 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Dogs are still wolves. Their domestication has made them no less lethal -- just more predictable.

A lapdog is not a wolf. Dogs have instincts such as herding and barking when territory is violated which have evolved since the wolf days. Many breeds have many behaviors, often as distinct from each other as from their wolf origin.

You seem to be obsessed with the dog = wolf meme. There are still some shared traits, but it's like saying lions = house cats. It's a very shallow limited meme.

Then again, some people can't seem to tell donkeys from elephants...

[Ragnarök_62]

(04-28-2017, 12:48 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(04-28-2017, 10:07 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Dogs are still wolves. Their domestication has made them no less lethal -- just more predictable.

A lapdog is not a wolf.



Pic of a wolf crossed with an Alaskan Malamute..  So Bob, what would you call this specimen?


 Dogs have instincts such as herding and barking when territory is violated which have evolved since the wolf days.  Many breeds have many behaviors, often as distinct from each other as from their wolf origin.

You seem to be obsessed with the dog = wolf meme.  There are still some shared traits, but it's like saying lions = house cats.  It's a very shallow limited meme.

Then again, some people can't seem to tell donkeys from elephants...

Uh, dogs are just domesticated wolves. Wild wolves and dogs can interbreed freely which mean they are the same species. Domestication is a genetic selection process that weeds out what humans think are undesirable traits in the wolf and for that matter domestic cats.   Here is a pic of the African Wildcat:



As far as house cats go, we have the ancestor, Cattus Silvesterus lybica, I think that's where Warner Brothers got the name for Sylvester, the cat.    As far as the "domestication process",  have gander at the cabbage family:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_oleracea


If you think cats and dogs cause a mindfuck, they ain't go nothing over Brassica.

[pbrower2a]

German shepherds, which look like very primitive dogs, are a rather recent breed -- from the late 19th century. They are relatively-recent descendants of crossbreeds between (tame) dogs and (wild) wolves. It's domestication that separates wolves and dogs, the exceptions being feral dogs descended from once-tame dogs.

Wolves try to domesticate humans, which is not good for humans. We cannot live to adulthood on the raw-meat diet of wolves; it's just too much protein for our kidneys. It is worth remembering that the legendary Romulus and Remus and the fictional Mowgli die young -- probably from kidney failure. It's not for a lack of affection.

The domestication of wolves into dogs depends paradoxically upon some wolves being just aggressive enough to approach humans while recognizing that small children are not meat. An extended human family has much the same structure as a wolf pack -- but even if the alpha humans are much in charge, some subordinate wolves can still breed.

Wolves can thrive on the cooked meat and fish that we humans eat. They can also thrive upon bone marrow which wolves can get by cracking bones as we humans generally can't. They don't need to expend as much energy. They also get a partnership with a creature with color vision that wolves do not have. Color vision is good for spotting bears and big cats that can prey on solitary dogs and wolves -- and for detecting prey. Dogs' night vision is far better than human vision at night, so that is a valid partnership. Add to this, dogs in the presence of humans are far less likely to get into dangerous fights for dominance.

Except for humans and dogs, wolves are the least dangerous of large predators to humans. It's arguable that under some conditions a dog is even more dangerous, as when defending its turf.
Wolves undergoing domestication were more likely to survive and breed than wild wolves. But humans were more likely to survive if they had dogs around. Two of the nastiest predators in the animal world made a unique partnership in the animal world.

It may be paradoxical, but the smallest dogs generally became almost cat-like in their predatory habits -- and similarly efficient. Some terriers have become almost as tiger-like in behavior as the more obvious cousins of tigers of like size. I have my idea of a plot for a horror story -- a Yorkshire terrier that grows into a big dog yet maintains terrior-like (and in many ways tiger-like) behavior.

[The Wonkette]

(04-29-2017, 01:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Wolves try to domesticate humans, which is not good for humans. We cannot live to adulthood on the raw-meat diet of wolves; it's just too much protein for our kidneys. It is worth remembering that the legendary Romulus and Remus and the fictional Mowgli die young -- probably from kidney failure. It's not for a lack of affection.

Where does Mowgli die young? He didn't in the Disney movie Jungle Book. I checked Wikipedia's entry for Mowgli and nothing said anything about him dying young.

[pbrower2a]

That's what I recall from my last reading of the book. Disney isn't completely true to Kipling.