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Excuse me but if you are changing the discussion to the discussion of rape, that is a separate topic. Men who commit rape should absolutely assume financial responsibility. But that's not what we are talking bout here, we are talking bout Pro Choice. Men deserve the same choice women have.
Secondly both sexes are responsible for chastity if they prefer that option. As it is, women have the option to get out of their responsibilities after the fact and men do not.
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People who support abortion rights in the general may disagree with a specific abortion and may try to persuade someone struggling with the decision of aborting or not aborting to not abort. Abortion is no trivial choice even if it is a legitimate and licit choice.
...Figuring that rapists identified as such usually get prison terms -- such men are usually not going to have the means of supporting their offspring.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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03-17-2020, 10:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 10:31 PM by Dewdman42.)
Well the law is currently that any woman can choose to have an abortion for any reason, moral or immoral. That is separating law from the moral question, and allows millions of women to act immorally if they so choose. To date, 65 million babies have been aborted in America, reportedly. Do you honestly believe all of those were done for a reason that could be considered moral?
If there is any legitimate morality here, it should be codified into law. That very well could be: Pro-Life, unless the pregnancy occurred due to Rape; and many would agree with you, but just saying that we'll leave it to each woman to decide whether to kill a baby or not, is an immoral law according to Pro-Choice advocates.
I will state again, women want their cake and eat it too. They want full freedom to choose to abort, yet full ability to hamstring a father under the responsibilities they are choosing. This is not fair. Step one should be to equalize the fairness for men so that they have the same option to opt out of parenthood. The rights then fall completely to the mother to decide with her pro-choice what she would like to do. She can consider her own sense of morality (currently) to decide, but the man should not be forced to abide by her moral terms.
If you want to force parenthood onto fathers for whatever moral reasons you feel are legitimate, then mothers should also be forced under many circumstances to be a parent, ie...abortion not allowed. Unless in the case of proven rape, a mother that doesn't want to abort could opt to try to collect $$ from the rapist, but as you said, good luck with that.
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(03-17-2020, 10:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: Well the law is currently that any woman can choose to have an abortion for any reason, moral or immoral. That is separating law from the moral question, and allows millions of women to act immorally if they so choose. To date, 65 million babies have been aborted in America, reportedly. Do you honestly believe all of those were done for a reason that could be considered moral?
If there is any legitimate morality here, it should be codified into law. That very well could be: Pro-Life, unless the pregnancy occurred due to Rape; and many would agree with you, but just saying that we'll leave it to each woman to decide whether to kill a baby or not, is an immoral law according to Pro-Choice advocates.
I will state again, women want their cake and eat it too. They want full freedom to choose to abort, yet full ability to hamstring a father under the responsibilities they are choosing. This is not fair. Step one should be to equalize the fairness for men so that they have the same option to opt out of parenthood. The rights then fall completely to the mother to decide with her pro-choice what she would like to do. She can consider her own sense of morality (currently) to decide, but the man should not be forced to abide by her moral terms.
If you want to force parenthood onto fathers for whatever moral reasons you feel are legitimate, then mothers should also be forced under many circumstances to be a parent, ie...abortion not allowed. Unless in the case of proven rape, a mother that doesn't want to abort could opt to try to collect $$ from the rapist, but as you said, good luck with that.
H-m-m-m. This is a mixture of pro-life evangelism and well, I don't know what. Forcing anyone to be a parent is problematic, but, ultimately, it is the woman who must carry the fetus to term, and it has to be her choice to abort, if there is a choice to be made. If we men start carrying that burden, then it will be our choice -- but not until then.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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03-18-2020, 12:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2020, 12:21 PM by Dewdman42.)
There is no evangelism. I am actually completely on the fence about the issue. Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread. To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous. Men are the ones being controlled today! If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.
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(03-18-2020, 12:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: There is no evangelism. I am actually completely on the fence about the issue. Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread. To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous. Men are the ones being controlled today! If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.
Yes, the woman has that power by default. Of course, she also has the child.
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(03-18-2020, 12:53 PM)David Horn Wrote: (03-18-2020, 12:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: There is no evangelism. I am actually completely on the fence about the issue. Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread. To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous. Men are the ones being controlled today! If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.
Yes, the woman has that power by default. Of course, she also has the child.
Again, if that is her choice, then that should be her responsibility.
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(03-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: (03-18-2020, 12:53 PM)David Horn Wrote: (03-18-2020, 12:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: There is no evangelism. I am actually completely on the fence about the issue. Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread. To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous. Men are the ones being controlled today! If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.
Yes, the woman has that power by default. Of course, she also has the child.
Again, if that is her choice, then that should be her responsibility.
I never heard of immaculate conception. If you screw around, be prepared to deal with your half of the results.
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men and women share equal responsibility for screwing around. However when women are given the total choice for abortion, they should assume all responsibility for the decision regarding consequences. No woman in this country is forced to have a baby, they all have the option to abort it. If they choose otherwise, its on them at that point.
You are saying men are required to man up to 50% of the results, but women are allowed to take a pass if they want. That is not "half" of the results.
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03-18-2020, 04:09 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2020, 04:15 PM by Dewdman42.)
Also, I'm sure this will cause you and others to blow a gasket when I say this, but if anything women are MORE responsible for screwing around. In western society, women have always been given the last say regarding how and when to have sex and whom to have sex with. Men on the other hand are subject to constantly suppressing their nature biological urges in order to conform to that, which is good, don't get me wrong, but still, it is very much women that are in the driver's seat of that interaction, not men... (aside from Rape of course, which is a separate and isolated situation that should be considered differently then the mass majority).
Women are the ones that control when and how sex will occur, and in what manner. At any moment they are legally empowered to say "no stop". If they choose to continue and they get pregnant, they are further empowered to have an abortion and escape any moral obligation that has traditionally been placed on them by getting pregnant. They have total and complete power over the situation. It is their choice. Men are the ones being controlled, even prior to sex! After getting pregnant, women continue to be in control with the complete choice.
With choice comes responsibility. This is not a responsibility that women today wish to acknowledge or accept, because for centuries it has all been different. But now, they have options. Well, women have options. Men have none. That is why men are increasingly backing away from dating, courtship and marriage....all of that represents enslavement of men...and if they make someone pregnant in a moment of passion, they are SOL with no resource or options whatsoever but do as the woman demands.
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(03-18-2020, 04:09 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: Also, I'm sure this will cause you and others to blow a gasket when I say this, but if anything women are MORE responsible for screwing around. In western society, women have always been given the last say regarding how and when to have sex and whom to have sex with. Men on the other hand are subject to constantly suppressing their nature biological urges in order to conform to that, which is good, don't get me wrong, but still, it is very much women that are in the driver's seat of that interaction, not men... (aside from Rape of course, which is a separate and isolated situation that should be considered differently then the mass majority).
The consequences have been more severe for the woman (or girl, in case not an adult). She endures the pregnancy if there is one, and she gets to have the regrets in case she has an abortion, keeps the child only to raise it in abject poverty, or puts the child up for adoption. Abortion is rightly a moral issue and not one for the State to decide on her supposed behalf.
If she does choose an abortion, then let it be safe and legal. This will be a tough philosophical decision almost invariably by someone who does not fully understand the realities of her choice.
Quote:Women are the ones that control when and how sex will occur, and in what manner. At any moment they are legally empowered to say "no stop". If they choose to continue and they get pregnant, they are further empowered to have an abortion and escape any moral obligation that has traditionally been placed on them by getting pregnant. They have total and complete power over the situation. It is their choice. Men are the ones being controlled, even prior to sex! After getting pregnant, women continue to be in control with the complete choice.
Not if she changes her mind after sex is initiated. She suddenly realizes that her fling is with a brute, a pervert, or a creep. What then does she do?
Quote:With choice comes responsibility. This is not a responsibility that women today wish to acknowledge or accept, because for centuries it has all been different. But now, they have options. Well, women have options. Men have none. That is why men are increasingly backing away from dating, courtship and marriage....all of that represents enslavement of men...and if they make someone pregnant in a moment of passion, they are SOL with no resource or options whatsoever but do as the woman demands.
No fooling. Those who would outlaw abortion have not thought it through themselves. The debate on abortion is full of righteous indignation to a far greater extent than of philosophical inquiry. Women in similar circumstances with the same choice could make three different, stark choices.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(03-18-2020, 04:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The consequences have been more severe for the woman (or girl, in case not an adult). She endures the pregnancy if there is one, and she gets to have the regrets in case she has an abortion, keeps the child only to raise it in abject poverty, or puts the child up for adoption. Abortion is rightly a moral issue and not one for the State to decide on her supposed behalf.
If she does choose an abortion, then let it be safe and legal. This will be a tough philosophical decision almost invariably by someone who does not fully understand the realities of her choice.
Yea, I'm certainly not saying pregnancy is easy, but still women today have the choice to bear it or not. its their responsibility at that point.
Quote:
Not if she changes her mind after sex is initiated. She suddenly realizes that her fling is with a brute, a pervert, or a creep. What then does she do?
There are many laws on the books to protect women today from sex being forced on them. My understanding is that is woman always has the power to say "no stop" at any time, including once it has been initiated. The poor little dears don't want to accept responsibility to determining if a man is a creep before actually letting him enter her? Are you serious? Yes that is your right to say no at any time, but its also your responsibility to pre-screen who you sleep with!! If you didn't know he was a creep 2 seconds before starting sex, what makes you think you will suddenly know differently 5 seconds later? That is not a reasonable argument. Grow up and act like an adult! Women must accept responsibility for adult acts such as sex.
Quote:No fooling. Those who would outlaw abortion have not thought it through themselves. The debate on abortion is full of righteous indignation to a far greater extent than of philosophical inquiry. Women in similar circumstances with the same choice could make three different, stark choices.
This is why I'm totally on the fence about it. I don't belong to any religion and have no religious belief system clogging my brain. There are pragmatic reasons that make it sensible for society to allow it. However, on the other hand, we live in a country that believes in human rights...so taking away or disregarding entirely the human rights of unborn babies is a very slippery slope. I will not argue strongly either side of the argument. What I am arguing now is the assertion made that Pro-lifers are trying to control women. That is patently false. Pro-Choicers are trying to control men!
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