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"Pro-life"? It's about control of women.
#21
(10-29-2019, 02:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(10-28-2019, 08:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:
(10-28-2019, 07:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(08-24-2019, 06:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: A new poll shows what really interests 'pro-lifers': controlling women

Quote:According to self-identified “pro-life” advocates, the fundamental divide between those who want to outlaw abortion and those who want to keep it legal comes down to one question: when does life begin? Anti-abortion advocacy pushes the view that life begins at conception; the name of their movement carefully centers the conceit that opposition to abortion rights is simply about wanting to save human lives.

A new poll shows that’s a lie. The “pro-life” movement is fundamentally about misogyny.

A Supermajority/PerryUndem survey released this week divides respondents by their position on abortion, and then tracks their answers to 10 questions on gender equality more generally. On every question, anti-abortion voters were significantly more hostile to gender equity than pro-choice voters.

Do men make better political leaders than women? More than half of anti-abortion voters agreed. Do you want there to be equal numbers of men and women in positions of power in America? Fewer than half of abortion opponents said yes – compared with 80% of pro-choicers, who said they want women to share in power equally.

Anti-abortion voters don’t like the #MeToo movement. They don’t think the lack of women in positions of power impacts women’s equality. They don’t think access to birth control impacts women’s equality. They don’t think the way women are treated in society is an important issue in the 2020 election.

In other words, they don’t believe sexism is a problem, and they’re hostile to women’s rights. Pro-lifers are sexists in denial – yes, the women too.

Link to survey results

Pro-Choice respondents are defined as those who "want abortion legal in all or most cases (67%)" and Pro-Life respondents are defined as those who "want abortion illegal in all or most cases (33%)."

38% Pro-Choice | 77% Pro-Life - Agree women are too easily offended
38% Pro-Choice | 71% Pro-Life - Agree women interpret innocent remarks or acts as being sexist
24% Pro-Choice | 54% Pro-Life - Agree men generally make better political leaders than women
80% Pro-Choice | 47% Pro-Life - Agree I want there to be equal numbers of men and women in positions of power in our society
74% Pro-Choice | 35% Pro-Life - Think the way women are treated in society is an important 2020 issue
82% Pro-Choice | 34% Pro-Life - Agree the country would be better off if we had more women in political office
74% Pro-Choice | 27% Pro-Life - Think access to birth control affects women's equality
70% Pro-Choice | 23% Pro-Life - Think lack of women in political office affects women's equality
71% Pro-Choice | 23% Pro-Life - Favorable toward #MeToo movement
66% Pro-Choice | 19% Pro-Life - Believe systems in society were set up to give men more opportunities than women
I think we all know/should know that life begins at conception these days. I know that my life and the lives of everyone that I know began at conception. I can't speak for the liberals or the liberal view of having to see it alive in the flesh before being able to see it/ accept it as being a live human being. We may as well begin talking about this issue and other issues as if we are already separate nations because that is the path that we are obviously on today.

I'm not a misogynist who believes that women are incapable of doing most things on their own without male support or guidance. You would be amazed by the number of red males and females who already view each other as equals and treat each other as equals. In reality, it's so common among reddish  people these days that the blue social issues are commonly viewed as non issues as it relates to them and their lives. I'm not raising my daughter to be a blue woman reliant upon government who looks to government for support/ help/protection or reliant upon a political wing of a national party for her identity or her job or her position in life or her feeling of  self worth and so forth. I'm not raising her to have multiple fathers of her children and have multiple children that she and her sperm donors cannot afford to raise without public support. My advice, you should start thinking in terms of national splits and start thinking of the losses and what kind of people end up living where and so forth.

Are you raising your daughter to think of "blue" people as "reliant upon government who looks to government for support/ help/protection or reliant upon a political wing of a national party for her identity or her job or her position in life or her feeling of  self worth and so forth. I'm not raising her to have multiple fathers of her children and have multiple children that she and her sperm donors cannot afford to raise without public support."

Remember, when you refer to "blue" you really do refer to all Democrats. You might want to reconsider your terms if you don't mean to say this.
No, she's smart enough to be able to figure that out on her own. Yes. I'm fully aware that blue is associated with the Democratic party (Democratic voters) these days. As you already know, I'm not here recruiting or attempting to gain or exclusively looking for Democratic support either. If the Democratic don't care if they're going to be stuck paying for everything the other half of their party wants or now feels it's entitled to receive, I don't really care if that's how it turns out to be for them. You see, the Democratic people have had the luxury of half the country being opposed to the other half of their party. I'm not sure what they're going to do when the other half of the country decides that it's done with the other half of their party.

Unfortunately for you and your views, you don't need to be concerned about that. There is no sharp distinction between the two halves of the Democratic Party. The division between blue and red is what is sharpening. Even going back to the Democratic convention of a decade or two ago, the moderate "new" Democrat Bill Clinton said clearly that "our way works better." 





What is that way? That government needs to help support the people, including poor and middle class people, and that when the income from the rich and upper middle class is partly used (and in fact most of us contribute to some extent) to help us all to make it when we need it, this stimulates economic activity for everyone a lot better than "your way," which says let the rich keep everything they earn and in fact exploit everyone else by appropriating all the revenue from their business for themselves, and believing with ardent and baseless faith that this wealth from the "job creaters" will trickle down to everybody.

All Democrats, not just half of them, accept that taxes are needed, and that helping the poor helps all of us, and that it's prudent to provide support when a depression or a greedy or mean boss destroys your income, so that you can keep on living and find other means of support later if needed. If you watch the Democratic presidential debates this year, you'll find that although some of their fans loudly denounce the other candidates from one side or another, in fact the candidates themselves all agree that they all agree on this basic principle.

Another problem for your side is that it is being increasingly hijacked by fear and prejudice against immigrants and non-christian religions and a narrow nationalism. The red side has been captured by Trump and is tied to the hip to him, because Republicans know that he is the only current potential candidate who has any chance to win the presidency. In order the keep your AR-15s and keep your taxes low and never going to those who depend on government, you all have to go along with Trump's narrow-minded hatreds. Of course to some extent you always have, even if not totally or explicitly. But now you are all stuck with him whole hog, and you are clinging to him and you will all go down with him.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#22
The Pro-Life movement is not about controlling women.  That is ridiculous!  We have a communication breakdown on this point.  That's why the argument is not Pro-Life vs Anti-Life.  Nor is the argument Pro-Choice vs No-Choice.  the argument is always Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice... and the two sides are fighting over different things.  Pro-Lifers are fighting for the human rights of the unborn child.  Pro-Choice advocates are fighting for the human rights of the pregnant mother.  There is a conflict because the human rights of both individuals can't seem to be resolved together...it appears to be a zero sum game where mothers feel their rights are violated if they can't terminate the life of their unborn child, and Pro-Life advocates feel that they can't protect the rights of unborn children without forcing women to bear their pregnancy all the way to birth of a child.

This conflict is what it is, but you're never going to get anywhere by accusing the other side of evil.

For the time being I feel the law of the land is Pro-Choice, but I think reproduction laws also need to be changed to allow men to opt out of parental obligations also.  Right now women have all the rights.  They can terminate it or have it...their choice...and also their choice to force the father to accept obligations and responsbilities, which they themselves had the option to get out of through abortion...the current law of the land.  Men deserve the same "choice' that women are currently provided.  Men are currently the ones being "controlled" !!
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#23
Let's start with this: chastity is a valid choice. Maybe if more men and boys understood what the word "no" means we would not have so many abortions. Maybe if we didn't have so many borderline rapes we wouldn't have so many abortions.

Let's start by debunking the crass excuses of would-be rapists:

"She's going to enjoy it, and if she does it isn't rape".
"(Certain? All?) girls are sluts anyway".
"I am God's gift to women".

Or she has a fling and the unborn baby will look nothing like her husband. Whoops?

Let's also crack down on sexual trafficking. Many abortions involve prostitution, and the female is pressed into having an abortion so that she can continue to make more money for "her" pimp. She is helpless -- perhaps she is a foreigner who knows nobody here except for the pimp.

...It is safe to assume that rapists and johns have no obvious claim to any right to the unborn child. It is also clear that another cause of abortions, those mandatory for protecting the life and health (including reproductive health) of the woman or girl.

Abortions have been performed on girls as young as ten years old. What does that say aside from statutory rape?
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#24
Excuse me but if you are changing the discussion to the discussion of rape, that is a separate topic. Men who commit rape should absolutely assume financial responsibility. But that's not what we are talking bout here, we are talking bout Pro Choice. Men deserve the same choice women have.

Secondly both sexes are responsible for chastity if they prefer that option. As it is, women have the option to get out of their responsibilities after the fact and men do not.
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#25
People who support abortion rights in the general may disagree with a specific abortion and may try to persuade someone struggling with the decision of aborting or not aborting to not abort. Abortion is no trivial choice even if it is a legitimate and licit choice.

...Figuring that rapists identified as such usually get prison terms -- such men are usually not going to have the means of supporting their offspring.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#26
Well the law is currently that any woman can choose to have an abortion for any reason, moral or immoral. That is separating law from the moral question, and allows millions of women to act immorally if they so choose. To date, 65 million babies have been aborted in America, reportedly. Do you honestly believe all of those were done for a reason that could be considered moral?

If there is any legitimate morality here, it should be codified into law. That very well could be: Pro-Life, unless the pregnancy occurred due to Rape; and many would agree with you, but just saying that we'll leave it to each woman to decide whether to kill a baby or not, is an immoral law according to Pro-Choice advocates.

I will state again, women want their cake and eat it too. They want full freedom to choose to abort, yet full ability to hamstring a father under the responsibilities they are choosing. This is not fair. Step one should be to equalize the fairness for men so that they have the same option to opt out of parenthood. The rights then fall completely to the mother to decide with her pro-choice what she would like to do. She can consider her own sense of morality (currently) to decide, but the man should not be forced to abide by her moral terms.

If you want to force parenthood onto fathers for whatever moral reasons you feel are legitimate, then mothers should also be forced under many circumstances to be a parent, ie...abortion not allowed. Unless in the case of proven rape, a mother that doesn't want to abort could opt to try to collect $$ from the rapist, but as you said, good luck with that.
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#27
(03-17-2020, 10:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: Well the law is currently that any woman can choose to have an abortion for any reason, moral or immoral.  That is separating law from the moral question, and allows millions of women to act immorally if they so choose.  To date, 65 million babies have been aborted in America, reportedly.  Do you honestly believe all of those were done for a reason that could be considered moral?

If there is any legitimate morality here, it should be codified into law.  That very well could be: Pro-Life, unless the pregnancy occurred due to Rape; and many would agree with you, but just saying that we'll leave it to each woman to decide whether to kill a baby or not, is an immoral law according to Pro-Choice advocates.

I will state again, women want their cake and eat it too.  They want full freedom to choose to abort, yet full ability to hamstring a father under the responsibilities they are choosing.  This is not fair.  Step one should be to equalize the fairness for men so that they have the same option to opt out of parenthood.  The rights then fall completely to the mother to decide with her pro-choice what she would like to do.  She can consider her own sense of morality (currently) to decide, but the man should not be forced to abide by her moral terms.

If you want to force parenthood onto fathers for whatever moral reasons you feel are legitimate, then mothers should also be forced under many circumstances to be a parent, ie...abortion not allowed.  Unless in the case of proven rape, a mother that doesn't want to abort could opt to try to collect $$ from the rapist, but as you said, good luck with that.

H-m-m-m.  This is a mixture of pro-life evangelism and well, I don't know what.  Forcing anyone to be a parent is problematic, but, ultimately, it is the woman who must carry the fetus to term, and it has to be her choice to abort, if there is a choice to be made.  If we men start carrying that burden, then it will be our choice -- but not until then.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#28
There is no evangelism.  I am actually completely on the fence about the issue.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread.  To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous.  Men are the ones being controlled today! If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.
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#29
(03-18-2020, 12:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: There is no evangelism.  I am actually completely on the fence about the issue.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread.  To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous.  Men are the ones being controlled today!  If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.

Yes, the woman has that power by default.  Of course, she also has the child.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#30
(03-18-2020, 12:53 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 12:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: There is no evangelism.  I am actually completely on the fence about the issue.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread.  To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous.  Men are the ones being controlled today!  If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.

Yes, the woman has that power by default.  Of course, she also has the child.

Again, if that is her choice, then that should be her responsibility.
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#31
(03-18-2020, 01:32 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 12:53 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(03-18-2020, 12:17 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: There is no evangelism.  I am actually completely on the fence about the issue.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy shown in this thread.  To say that men are trying to control women through pro choice is ridiculous.  Men are the ones being controlled today!  If a woman “decides” to carry a baby full term all the way to birth, that is her choice and her responsibility.

Yes, the woman has that power by default.  Of course, she also has the child.

Again, if that is her choice, then that should be her responsibility.

I never heard of immaculate conception. If you screw around, be prepared to deal with your half of the results.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#32
men and women share equal responsibility for screwing around. However when women are given the total choice for abortion, they should assume all responsibility for the decision regarding consequences. No woman in this country is forced to have a baby, they all have the option to abort it. If they choose otherwise, its on them at that point.

You are saying men are required to man up to 50% of the results, but women are allowed to take a pass if they want. That is not "half" of the results.
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#33
Also, I'm sure this will cause you and others to blow a gasket when I say this, but if anything women are MORE responsible for screwing around. In western society, women have always been given the last say regarding how and when to have sex and whom to have sex with. Men on the other hand are subject to constantly suppressing their nature biological urges in order to conform to that, which is good, don't get me wrong, but still, it is very much women that are in the driver's seat of that interaction, not men... (aside from Rape of course, which is a separate and isolated situation that should be considered differently then the mass majority).

Women are the ones that control when and how sex will occur, and in what manner. At any moment they are legally empowered to say "no stop". If they choose to continue and they get pregnant, they are further empowered to have an abortion and escape any moral obligation that has traditionally been placed on them by getting pregnant. They have total and complete power over the situation. It is their choice. Men are the ones being controlled, even prior to sex! After getting pregnant, women continue to be in control with the complete choice.

With choice comes responsibility. This is not a responsibility that women today wish to acknowledge or accept, because for centuries it has all been different. But now, they have options. Well, women have options. Men have none. That is why men are increasingly backing away from dating, courtship and marriage....all of that represents enslavement of men...and if they make someone pregnant in a moment of passion, they are SOL with no resource or options whatsoever but do as the woman demands.
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#34
(03-18-2020, 04:09 PM)Dewdman42 Wrote: Also, I'm sure this will cause you and others to blow a gasket when I say this, but if anything women are MORE responsible for screwing around.  In western society, women have always been given the last say regarding how and when to have sex and whom to have sex with.  Men on the other hand are subject to constantly suppressing their nature biological urges in order to conform to that, which is good, don't get me wrong, but still, it is very much women that are in the driver's seat of that interaction, not men...  (aside from Rape of course, which is a separate and isolated situation that should be considered differently then the mass majority).

The consequences have been more severe for the woman (or girl, in case not an adult). She endures the pregnancy if there is one, and she gets to have the regrets in case she has an abortion, keeps the child only to raise it in abject poverty, or puts the child up for adoption. Abortion is rightly a moral issue and not one for the State to decide on her supposed behalf. 

If she does choose an abortion, then let it be safe and legal. This will be a tough philosophical decision almost invariably by someone who does not fully understand the realities of her choice.   


Quote:Women are the ones that control when and how sex will occur, and in what manner.  At any moment they are legally empowered to say "no stop".  If they choose to continue and they get pregnant, they are further empowered to have an abortion and escape any moral obligation that has traditionally been placed on them by getting pregnant.  They have total and complete power over the situation.  It is their choice.  Men are the ones being controlled, even prior to sex!  After getting pregnant, women continue to be in control with the complete choice.
 
Not if she changes her mind after sex is initiated. She suddenly realizes that her fling is with a brute, a pervert, or a creep. What then does she do?

 
Quote:With choice comes responsibility.  This is not a responsibility that women today wish to acknowledge or accept, because for centuries it has all been different.  But now, they have options.  Well, women have options.  Men have none.  That is why men are increasingly backing away from dating, courtship and marriage....all of that represents enslavement of men...and if they make someone pregnant in a moment of passion, they are SOL with no resource or options whatsoever but do as the woman demands.

No fooling. Those who would outlaw abortion have not thought it through themselves. The debate on abortion is full of righteous indignation to a far greater extent than of philosophical inquiry. Women in similar circumstances with the same choice could make three different, stark choices.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#35
(03-18-2020, 04:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The consequences have been more severe for the woman (or girl, in case not an adult). She endures the pregnancy if there is one, and she gets to have the regrets in case she has an abortion, keeps the child only to raise it in abject poverty, or puts the child up for adoption. Abortion is rightly a moral issue and not one for the State to decide on her supposed behalf. 

If she does choose an abortion, then let it be safe and legal. This will be a tough philosophical decision almost invariably by someone who does not fully understand the realities of her choice.   

Yea, I'm certainly not saying pregnancy is easy, but still women today have the choice to bear it or not. its their responsibility at that point.


Quote: 
Not if she changes her mind after sex is initiated. She suddenly realizes that her fling is with a brute, a pervert, or a creep. What then does she do?

There are many laws on the books to protect women today from sex being forced on them. My understanding is that is woman always has the power to say "no stop" at any time, including once it has been initiated. The poor little dears don't want to accept responsibility to determining if a man is a creep before actually letting him enter her? Are you serious? Yes that is your right to say no at any time, but its also your responsibility to pre-screen who you sleep with!! If you didn't know he was a creep 2 seconds before starting sex, what makes you think you will suddenly know differently 5 seconds later? That is not a reasonable argument. Grow up and act like an adult! Women must accept responsibility for adult acts such as sex.

Quote:No fooling. Those who would outlaw abortion have not thought it through themselves. The debate on abortion is full of righteous indignation to a far greater extent than of philosophical inquiry. Women in similar circumstances with the same choice could make three different, stark choices.

This is why I'm totally on the fence about it. I don't belong to any religion and have no religious belief system clogging my brain. There are pragmatic reasons that make it sensible for society to allow it. However, on the other hand, we live in a country that believes in human rights...so taking away or disregarding entirely the human rights of unborn babies is a very slippery slope. I will not argue strongly either side of the argument. What I am arguing now is the assertion made that Pro-lifers are trying to control women. That is patently false. Pro-Choicers are trying to control men!
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