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House of Representatives impeaches President Donald Trump
#21
(12-26-2019, 11:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(12-26-2019, 06:37 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Had the Japanese government recognized that all was lost, that had the war continued into late 1945 Japan would have gone into famine (the Japanese depended upon shipments of food from occupied countries while the usual farm laborers of Japan were pointing rifles at rice farmers under occupation), and had the thug regime of Japan not done such horrific crimes as the Bataan Death March as a norm, then maybe Harry Truman would have never had the opportunity to use the atom bomb on Japan. Japan was on the brink of economic collapse because of the Allied naval blockade that cut off the food that the Japanese needed. Japanese soldiers and sailors went back to the rice fields and harvested the rice crop -- and famine was averted. 

If you are thinking that Truman would have never done the same to Germany -- Germany capitulated before the US even had a working atom bomb. Had D-Day failed and the Wehrmacht started having successes in turning back Allied offensives on all fronts , then maybe Germany would have been in the war long enough to experience an atom bomb or two in the autumn of 1945. Oh, but the Germans were white, unlike the Japanese? By 1945 Americans had largely forgotten that Germans were white. The Allies would have had a pretext for using the atomic bomb on Germany -- the Holocaust. So a bunch of leading Nazis celebrate in some German city that that city is now Judenrein*... those leaders and people celebrating such with them get incinerated.    

War crimes trials excuse mistakes, including miscalculations. Those trials do not exculpate pure murder, rape, kidnapping, or plunder. 

*"free of Jews"

Don't forget that the Italians were mainly white too? We fire bombed Dresden and killed thousands of white citizens which some on today's Left could view as a war crime and use as an argument against us (America) these days too. You better start paying attention because your future (what's left of it) is most likely being determined right now. I think Middle America has had enough of the Democratic party these days. I think Heartland Democrats better figure out a way to separate/differentiate themselves from the Left pretty quick before the all the shit with today's Left raise up a notch and begins to get really serious. You dumb enough to politically tie yourself to the pretty boy governor of the liberal shit state of California? He kind of reminds me of liberal pretty boy John Edwards. Didn't he wow you as a candidate until you learned what a piece of shit human being he was at the core? Gee, if you had my instinctual capabilities and you weren't as prone to superficial human qualities and emotional feelings you get from liberal candidates, you would not have chosen him as quickly or chosen Obama as quickly either.

Italian forces ended up in the maws of much better British and American armies and found themselves all too often (for Mussolini) in a position in which they could best survive by putting up token resistance and then surrendering. By the time the German and Italian armed forces got cornered in Tunisia with no escape, the Italian armed forces were demoralized in Italy itself. By 1943, fascism rang hollow for having delivered nothing to Italians other than to fascists... and beginning with the invasions of Sicily and Sardinia the Italians generally saw the British and Americans as liberators. As an analogy, consider the American Civil War in eastern Tennessee: the people of eastern Tennessee (Mountain South) had little use for the slave system that had no use for Appalachia except as a repository for cannon fodder. Armies generally avoid mountainous areas in war, but mountainous areas are excellent zone for the advancement of an invader if the People are on the side of the Invader. Italy other than the Po Valley is even more mountainous than eastern Tennessee... and American and British (along with Free Polish) forces could steadily grind down the Wehrmacht.

There used to be a large repertory of Italian jokes expounding the cowardice of the Italian people in WWII. I ordinarily do not relate ethnic jokes, but I will deconstruct this one:

Did you hear about the new Italian tank? Four gears in reverse, and one forward... in case the Enemy gets into the rear!

The truth is far better. The Italian people formed a powerful underground resistance, a veritable fifth column*, that fought bravely against the hated Nazis and their puppets of the "Italian Social Republic"... (a rather old, but better joke -- the Italian Social Republic was neither Italian, "social", nor a republic -- but you have probably heard that of the now-defunct German Democratic Republic and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea). The Wehrmacht had to watch its back all the way to the Alps... and the Allies had little trouble in any part of liberated Italy. In the end the Italian resistance caught Mussolini failing to get out fast enough and... I will spare you the gory details. You know those too well. The Italian resistance took over much of northern Italy before the British and Americans could get there. Motivate any people adequately with something to lose, and they will be courageous.

Mussolini may have been the Enemy, but the Italian people turned into our ally, for all practical purposes.

Americans ditched the dangerous 1915 Klan, a group that had most of the characteristics of fascism before Mussolini coined the word fascismo. Give us a taste of dictatorship or despotism, and 

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will turn against it fast. Even the baby steps toward totalitarianism that Donald Trump has taken offend many of us -- liberals and conservatives alike.  We have shown our contempt for foreign tyranny, whether by Mussolini, Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or Satan Hussein in the past and there is no reason to think that we would find a tyranny that tries to call itself American would do any better here even if does better at exploiting some part of American culture. "American culture" is no monolith, and I would not force any part of my heritage upon some people (let us say Cajuns in Louisiana) who have a different  set of cultural norms than mine. If you do not think that I would endorse doing bad things to Mexican-Americans who have a long and distinguished heritage in America, then you underestimate me. Their culture is just as valid as mine. 

I am as opposed to any Totalitarian Left (you ought to have seen my arguments with kinser when he was a Stalinist! I shed no tears when Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu were "ventilated" two days more than thirty years ago. Just as liberals and social democrats get along badly with Marxist-Leninists, genuine conservatives have nothing in common with fascists than opposition to Commies.  

Paradoxically I have conservative traits. I recognize tradition as a default when radical reforms fail to deliver as promised. I recognize law and order as the first civil right without which all the enumerated rights are meaningless. I recognize that capitalism has done far more unintended good for Humanity than the intended good of revolutionary socialism and private charity. (Monopoly and entrenched power are the problem, and not capitalism). I recognize moral values worthy of cultivation, and that a good educational system promotes those values even more than the quest for knowledge and technical skills. Knowledge and skill in the hands of people who find evil useful to their designs can do greater harm than ignoramuses; the garden-variety criminal cannot do as much harm as a learned-but-amoral Josef Goebbels, and the knowledge that Ted Bundy learned in his study of psychology made him more adept in finding a 'higher' class of victims than the usual serial killer. We have a body of traditional knowledge demonstrably true from antiquity that we can only hone. Yes, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle are still valid today, and I would not cast off the great body of Jewish scholarship on ethical questions that people keep asking to this day. Human nature has changed so little that Greek drama remains relevant to this day... and that is before I even discuss Shakespeare, who is much closer to our time.

Reason, morality, and truth have much tendency to prevail. They have had some serious reverses, but as a rule people return to those when all else (such as lying, cheating, and theft) fail as they invariably do. 

*Fifth columns get a bad name, but extend the term for legitimate freedom-fighters and it becomes neutral.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#22
(12-23-2019, 11:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The counsel to the Democrats in the House says Trump could be impeached a second time if they hear more about his obstruction from McGahn. I'd say we are also waiting for a lot more: all his tax records and the documents he has withheld, and all the witnesses that the House has gone to Court to get to testify. Why not hold up the trial now until we get everything? We've got the impeachment done. And if the trial is held up for several months, that will give senators the time they need to campaign in the primary.

Actually, it might be better to let this go through, and have the public see the GOP as total sock puppets. Nothing prevents a second or third impeachment if the facts makes that necessary. No matter how this plays, we're tilling new ground. Better to have the terms set by the not-GOPpers

Eric Wrote:Trump has violated the emoluments clause by hosting foreign officials at his hotels and such. He violated campaign finance laws by using money from his charity to finance his campaign. He paid hush money to a prostitute. He obstructed justice, as the Mueller Report described. He may have committed tax fraud and made himself beholden to the Russians. What else could be revealed if we can get all the documents and witnesses that have already been subpoenaed?

Until the entire Republican Party is either shamed into doing the right thing, or shown to everyone as a sham party, this can happen again. The Democrats only have one tool: a hammer. Let the GOP be the nails.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#23
(12-26-2019, 05:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, one could argue that dropping the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima was a war crime and refer to it as a crime against humanity. I already told you what I expect to see once Pelosi lets go of it and makes it official by sending it to the Senate for a formal  trial. Like I've mentioned, you don't have worry about the Republicans, the Republicans are nothing compared us. I expect to see a real American trial. What do we need the liberals for these days? What are the liberals really good for these days?

This argument is one extended nonsequitor. Almost the entire GOP block in the Senate is onboard to violate their oath as jurors. If this was a criminal trial, the jury would get as much time as the guilty being prosecuted, because only the guilty need to fix a trial for acquittal.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#24
(12-27-2019, 08:50 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(12-26-2019, 05:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, one could argue that dropping the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima was a war crime and refer to it as a crime against humanity. I already told you what I expect to see once Pelosi lets go of it and makes it official by sending it to the Senate for a formal  trial. Like I've mentioned, you don't have worry about the Republicans, the Republicans are nothing compared us. I expect to see a real American trial. What do we need the liberals for these days? What are the liberals really good for these days?

This argument is one extended non sequitor.  Almost the entire GOP block in the Senate is onboard to violate their oath as jurors.  If this was a criminal trial, the jury would get as much time as the guilty being prosecuted, because only the guilty need to fix a trial for acquittal.

The fix will happen. Count on it. For any Republican Senator who balks at acquitting Trump, some fish will die as a warning delivered to that Senator. Democrats will be spared that threat because they would go to the FBI.

The question is whether voters will hold Republicans accountable for making a travesty of a process. Things stand to get nastier up to the election as the President becomes even more unhinged.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#25
(12-26-2019, 10:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(12-26-2019, 08:55 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I thought the Republicans were RATHER  nosy about the private affairs of Mr. Clinton. so what's this comment for?

Corrupt liberals do exist and they pay the price. Even in my district my liberal rep had some corruption and he was replaced by Ro Khanna. The district lines shifted, and now I am in the district next door, and we have a primary challenger who is very similar to Ro, and an incumbent who seems bought by the drug companies. So it took Ro a couple of runs, so we'll see what happens.
The Republicans had a right to be nosy about an affair of Mr. Clinton's that took place in the White House (the oval office) of all places while he was President. Clinton fucking over some goo goo gah gah liberal dame wasn't new or upsetting to me at the time. I wasn't a Democratic or a woman voter back then. Like I said, if he wasn't such a liberal pussy (darling) who was accustomed to being allowed to get away with shit, he would have admitted it and spared himself the misery of being forced to apologize and admit that he had lied while under oath while UNDER OATH as part of a political plea deal that would allow him to remain in office and finish out the rest of his term in office. Is Ro Khanna as sharp and as able to play with emotions as AOC? Do you have room for AOC and all her supporters when she loses her seat to a core Gen Xr who is more American minded ? I'm not worried about her movie stars. Hell, they've got the money and resources available to them to can pack up and move to California anytime they please.

There is no chance of AOC losing her seat. If you think so, it seems there's no limit to your fanciful dreams of "American minded" folks taking over. You don't demonstrate a realistic awareness of political reality, in that case. 

So no wonder you fail to understand that Clinton's impeachment was nothing but an invasion of his private life, with a young lady whom he did not fuck according to the meaning of the word is. It was only a blow job, not a fuck, and he was impeached for pointing out the distinction. I can't think of a thinner excuse for the demented, fanatical, deluded Republicans to impeach a president just because they felt entitled to the Reagan white house. And that house was Clinton's private residence as well as a public place of governance. 

And the other amazing thing is how many of the Republicans who accused him also had sexual dalliances and misconduct and covered it up too. They were all a bunch of hypocrites. Sex among consenting adults should be as free as people want it to be, anywhere. And by their conduct the Republicans showed that they agreed with this 2T boomer free morality, and even beyond it into immorality.

It didn't matter though. The "American minded" voters screwed up our chance for any meaningful progress by voting in that pervert Gingrich as speaker in 1994. Progress was all over for the Clinton years, and it was back to neo-liberalism in control until a mere 7 months in 2009.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#26
(12-27-2019, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: Until the entire Republican Party is either shamed into doing the right thing, or shown to everyone as a sham party, this can happen again.  The Democrats only have one tool: a hammer.  Let the GOP be the nails.
You're still stuck the Republican party as being the problem that you face when the problem that you face are the sixty some million who supported him. You've been shaming them for decades and where has that got you. What works for your own, doesn't work with us dude. You show me a hammer, I'll show you a gun and blow your fucking head off without thinking twice. Get it, that's who you are really messing with these days. Hey, if that coddled blue governor of yours who couldn't recall if he was the nigger or the clansman with the blue ego wants to flex his political muscle, I'm sure those reddish neighbors aren't going to cower to him and oblige and I'm sure that your national guard aren't going to be willing to enforce it either. Hint...Shaming them and shaming your own over the years has accomplished nothing other than further strengthening the resolve of those other side. Hint.. AS YOU TEND WEAKEN, I TEND TO GET STRONGER AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY MORE LIBERALS THERE ARE THAN ME EITHER. I thinks its fitting that some dumb liberal fucks up and forgets which country he's living in and forgets that he living in the state that George Washington lived in and so forth.  Hint, other than a liberal, who trusts the liberals these days? The Republican's have every tool that you can think of that's available for them to use today. We aren't picky as long as there's liberals involved these days. The only question right now, where does the dismantling of the Democratic party stop.
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#27
Hmmm. I kinda think the Republicans are in trouble. Thet can't win a party primary without a Trump / Tea Party endorsement. The establishment Republicans seem to know this and are loyal to Trump in absurdity. At the same time, they are letting themselves be labeled as the party of Trump, which will put the independents against the in a general election. While a lot of noise comes from the extremes, it is the independents who are driving the see saw politics of this prolonged unraveling. This Democratic revival may perhaps reach the point where it will stick beyond a few terms. The basic instinct has been to reject both extremes, to not allow either faction to run wild.

Not that the Democrats are doing each other favors. They have become a little to fond of supporting the elites. They don't have a feel for the middle of the country, or at least lean to the coasts thus earning the middle's scorn.
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#28
(12-29-2019, 03:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(12-27-2019, 08:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: Until the entire Republican Party is either shamed into doing the right thing, or shown to everyone as a sham party, this can happen again.  The Democrats only have one tool: a hammer.  Let the GOP be the nails.

You're still stuck the Republican party as being the problem that you face when the problem that you face are the sixty some million who supported him. You've been shaming them for decades and where has that got you. What works for your own, doesn't work with us dude. You show me a hammer, I'll show you a gun and blow your fucking head off without thinking twice. Get it, that's who you are really messing with these days. Hey, if that coddled blue governor of yours who couldn't recall if he was the nigger or the clansman with the blue ego wants to flex his political muscle, I'm sure those reddish neighbors aren't going to cower to him and oblige and I'm sure that your national guard aren't going to be willing to enforce it either. Hint...Shaming them and shaming your own over the years has accomplished nothing other than further strengthening the resolve of those other side. Hint.. AS YOU TEND WEAKEN, I TEND TO GET STRONGER AND IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY MORE LIBERALS THERE ARE THAN ME EITHER. I thinks its fitting that some dumb liberal fucks up and forgets which country he's living in and forgets that he living in the state that George Washington lived in and so forth.  Hint, other than a liberal, who trusts the liberals these days? The Republican's have every tool that you can think of that's available for them to use today. We aren't picky as long as there's liberals involved these days. The only question right now, where does the dismantling of the Democratic party stop.


The most recent national poll that I can find, and with the qualification that polls taken in late December are uncharacteristic due to the Holidays:

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Quote:[url=https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/t4lyjjoemc/econTabReport.pdf]The Economist/YouGov weekly tracker, Dec. 22-24, 1500 adults including 1240 RV

Adults:

Approve 40 (nc)
Disapprove 52 (+2)

Strongly approve 26 (+2)
Strongly disapprove 42 (+1)

Approve of impeachment? (previously: should the House impeach Trump?) Yes 49 (+2), No 41 (+2)

Remove Trump? Yes 44 (-3), No 41 (+3)

Registered Voters:

Approve 43 (-1)
Disapprove 54 (+1)

Strongly approve 31 (+2)
Strongly disapprove 46 (nc)

Approve of impeachment? Yes 49 (-1), No 45 (+2)

Remove Trump? Yes 47 (-3), No 44 (+2)

2020 (RV only): Generic D 47 (-2), Trump 42 (+2)

GCB (RV only): D 47 (-1), R 41 (+1)

Not all adults will vote, and there will be new voters in 2020, including people born late in 1998 and later who were never able to register to vote in any previous election for President, and some who were born as late as November 3, 2002 who will register to vote. People already registered have shown one thing that suggests that they can and will vote.   Add to that, voters who in general give a slight edge to Republicans will in many cases have dropped out of the electorate as did my father in October 2016 -- by dying. He had not missed a Presidential election since 1956, and told me that he was for the first time going to vote for the Democratic nominee for President because Donald Trump was too offensive to his conservative sensibilities. This man voted for Goldwater in 1964. About 1.5% of the electorate, generally the upper half of its age cohorts (55+) dies off every year. People about 20% more Democratic than Republican are replacing voters that give Republicans a 5% edge among themselves in the 'average' election.  

In recent years, "registered voters" have typically been more Republican-leaning than "adults"; that seems to be over. The young voters who would support the likes of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are not going away to the extent that the older Tea Party types (and Trump is practically the definition of Tea Party politics unless you would rather define the Tea Party by someone like Mitch McConnell or Scott Walker who turned the ideology into policy).

Monopolistic capitalism and an executive nomenklatura, the former destroying all traces of competition and the latter ensuring that work has very limited opportunities for people not related to the elites) offer nothing to young adults except grinding poverty or overpowering debt and unprecedented costs of housing rentals and commuter costs. American capitalism has lost every trace of humanistic values that keep capitalism from becoming another road to serfdom.  

Demographic change alone implies that on the whole, 1.5% of the electorate will be swinging away from Donald Trump. That would not matter if all that swing were in states like California, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New York that have absolutely no chance of voting for a Republican for President. The difference between a Democrat getting 57% of the vote in those states and getting 75% in those states is the difference between 97 electoral votes from those states and 97 electoral votes from those states. 

But even without the demographic change, an election involving an incumbent has the incumbent as the focus. If that incumbent even gets mediocre results or the perception thereof, then he ordinarily wins.  As an example, Dubya will go down in history as one of the worst presidents based on things that seemed to go well in his first term souring in his second term -- the Second Gulf War becoming laden with reverses and the implosion of a speculative boom that he had sponsored in his first term. He still got re-elected. The states close in 2000 in electoral results were similarly close in 2004, so he had a chance. Trump has offended so many sensibilities that he has offended constituencies that he needs for winning in 2020. Like Dubya he won a majority of the votes of the Electoral College; so far, the states that barely voted against him (ME-at large, MN, NH, and NV) are spiraling away from him, and states that he barely won show poor approval and disapproval numbers for him.     

Trump needs miracles or skullduggery to get re-elected. Barring miracles (he so far shows no signs of being a miracle-worker and I discern no reason for that to change) he can win only in a rigged election. An effective President can win despite demographic or cultural change working against him, but Trump faces both his own incompetence and cultural change to his detriment.

As for the tools that the Republicans have at their disposal -- God help us if those are truncheons and revolvers. Such are the tools of someone like Benito Mussolini. 

We liberals know what country this is. Yosemite, Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon, and the Great Smoky Mountains are not in some other part of the country. We have Hollywood and India has Bollywood. New York, Boston, New Orleans, Chicago, and San Francisco have no obvious imitations elsewhere. Besides, nobody would confuse St. Petersburg, Florida with St. Petersburg, Russia -- let alone Paris, France with Paris, Texas or Warsaw, Indiana  with Warsaw, Poland. 

No other country has Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, and FDR. Trump? that's the one harder to distinguish from some bad rulers of different times and places. He is more like Rafael Trujillo than like Barack Obama. We have been fortunate to wisely eschew demagogues who promise opposite sides of a logical contradiction and turn against the people when they catch on to the fraud. We are not so lucky this time.

I cannot yet tell you what the cure is, but it certainly isn't more of the same in Donald Judas Trump. We have over 200 years of tradition in constitutional government, and one part of America (Massachusetts) has the oldest freely-elected legislature in the world -- and it is nearly 400 years old. We have a political heritage that includes Puritans who insisted upon responsible government, Quakers who insisted upon order and justice with equity, Backwoods settlers who insisted that nobody step on them, and the descendants of slaves demanding recognition of their basic humanity. Add to that immigrants who came here to get away from situations impossible for economics or politics, and latched on vehemently to whatever tradition welcomed them or that they could take over. Tradition may prove more powerful than institutions. Classic X'er, the tradition that prevails may not be the one for which you show support. Note well: the people who now wield the Presidency will dispose of you unceremoniously and without any display of kindness when they no longer need you -- if they can get away with it. The only reason for those elites not pushing euthanasia upon the worn-out and the economic failures is that prisons and nursing homes are profitable to them.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#29
McConnel has thrown  out a set of rules giving a minimum amount of time to both sides, and I am trying to figure out how I would use it.  The Trump defense basically doesn't pretend he didn't do it.  The call was supposedly perfect.  Nothing rose to the level of an impeachable defense.  You don't have to do anymore than agree with the defense that he did it, provide a minimum evidence of guilt to those who sleeps through the House testimony.

That leaves two law school like precedents that the Senate is setting for all time.  If you know what precedent you want to set, you vote accordingly.

Do you want foreign governments meddling in our elections, with or without invitation?  I would say no.  Foreign agents should have to follow the same laws of campaign and similar things as domestic people.

Does the Constitution include oversight which includes subpoenas.  Contempt of Congress seems to be an old law applying to any federal official.  The president is given no immunity.  Does the Constitution and federal law code have its sections regarding congressional oversight rendered effectively void, or what exactly did the founding fathers mean when the specified the president should be overseen by Congress?  How can they do that if the president does not respond to subpoenas?

It seems to me that the impeachment should be settled by the desired precedent rather than whether an impeachable offense occurred.  The precedents could be presented in a grad level law school class.  Each of the points could be covered in a few hours of school time, or if you'd watched a fraction of the House inquiry.

Why months of listening to politicians ramble?

Other thoughts would include a bunch of amendments to make the Senate trial public, at reasonable hours, include witnesses, request documents, etc... They could take the opportunity to make the Republicans in general and McConnel in particular look bad. I also anticipate the Democrats sending representatives around the media studios to fight the Republican attempts at silence.
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#30
I am beginning to think of the White House and McConnell's strategy as the "Three Monkeys" defense. They will refuse to look at the evidence, hear the evidence, or vote on the evidence.

I think they are trading one year of keeping control of the White House for destroying the current Republican Party as it exists. Those voters with intense belief in God or the Constitution will reject what they are doing entirely.

If that is what they want...
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#31
(01-20-2020, 11:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ...  I also anticipate the Democrats sending representatives around the media studios to fight the Republican attempts at silence.

Oddly, this task assignment has been taken by a group of former Republicans called The Lincoln Project.  They've already targeted Susan Collins, and several other Senators are on their hit-list.  These folks are pros, so I would expect typical pre-Trump GOP political tactics.  Let's see how that plays.

For those of you unfamiliar with any of these people, I'll note three of interest (to me, at least):
  • George Conway - the husband of Kelly-Ann Conway.  He has been a non-stop bane of Trumps from day one.
  • Steve Schmidt - a heavy hitter for a long time.  His client list includes John McCain and George W Bush.
  • Rick Wilson - he just published his second book on Trump, and he's thoroughly entertaining.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#32
(01-21-2020, 08:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am beginning to think of the White House and McConnell's strategy as the "Three Monkeys" defense.  They will refuse to look at the evidence, hear the evidence, or vote on the evidence.  

I think they are trading one year of keeping control of the White House for destroying the current Republican Party as it exists.  Those voters with intense belief in God or the Constitution will reject what they are doing entirely.

If that is what they want...

The Trump acolytes are still firmly in his camp.  He speaks to their fears and anger, and many are afraid, angry or both.  Look at our own Classic-Xer, as a prime example.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#33
(01-22-2020, 02:19 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-21-2020, 08:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am beginning to think of the White House and McConnell's strategy as the "Three Monkeys" defense.  They will refuse to look at the evidence, hear the evidence, or vote on the evidence.  

I think they are trading one year of keeping control of the White House for destroying the current Republican Party as it exists.  Those voters with intense belief in God or the Constitution will reject what they are doing entirely.

If that is what they want...

The Trump acolytes are still firmly in his camp.  He speaks to their fears and anger, and many are afraid, angry or both.  Look at our own Classic-Xer, as a prime example.
Dude, Trump doesn't have to do or say much at this point. The liberals and their party have spent years turning voters off and pissing voters off or digging their own graves. Classic-Xer isn't even close being one of your these days. This is your community. I just pop in and post for a while when life permits. So, what have they proved that they didn't seem able to take the time or make an effort to prove before impeaching Trump and eventually delivering their verdict to the Senate for trial? So, was impeaching Trump the top priority (what was needed by most liberals to keep their campaign promises and remain in office) for liberals in the House? I don't know for sure but it sure looks like it to me. You're a liberal, what do you think? As I mentioned, I hoped that the liberals weren't dumb enough to impeach Trump with nothing more than here say and an accusation that a know liberal candidate of theirs is known to be guilty of actually committing himself. Fox news has the tape of Biden talking about what he did to get rid of a corrupt investigator who may have been bribing/extorting him personally or may have been targeting the company that his son was employed by at the time.

Honestly, I didn't believe that the new wave of Democrats would be dumb enough or uncaring enough about their political jobs to go along with them. Right now, the congresswoman of yours has no other choice but to run as liberal Democrat in a conservative district that has a long history of crushing liberal candidates. I mean, even Dear Abbey's son openly lied to independent/conservative voters to get himself elected. I predict he's going to be crushed too. As far as the future goes, do you really want the Republicans to have the right to do what the liberals did in the House? Can you imagine how many times Obama would have been impeached without any rules or standards in place. The liberals can say what they want and keep believing but Trump didn't receive a fair trial in the House because the liberals in the house had already decided to impeach Trump.
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#34
(01-21-2020, 08:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am beginning to think of the White House and McConnell's strategy as the "Three Monkeys" defense.  They will refuse to look at the evidence, hear the evidence, or vote on the evidence.  

I think they are trading one year of keeping control of the White House for destroying the current Republican Party as it exists.  Those voters with intense belief in God or the Constitution will reject what they are doing entirely.

If that is what they want...

It practically reduces to "are you going to believe me or are you going to believe your lying eyes?", usually a final effort to prevent the inevitable break-up.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#35
(01-22-2020, 02:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-20-2020, 11:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ...  I also anticipate the Democrats sending representatives around the media studios to fight the Republican attempts at silence.

Oddly, this task assignment has been taken by a group of former Republicans called The Lincoln Project.  They've already targeted Susan Collins, and several other Senators are on their hit-list.  These folks are pros, so I would expect typical pre-Trump GOP political tactics.  Let's see how that plays.

For those of you unfamiliar with any of these people, I'll note three of interest (to me, at least):
  • George Conway - the husband of Kelly-Ann Conway.  He has been a non-stop bane of Trumps from day one.
  • Steve Schmidt - a heavy hitter for a long time.  His client list includes John McCain and George W Bush.
  • Rick Wilson - he just published his second book on Trump, and he's thoroughly entertaining
Dude, you might as well get used to idea of living out the rest of your life in a partisan country. Those dudes are done. I doubt she's going to care about anything they have to say or threaten her with because she's being judged by the Republican base who is deciding whether to keep her in office or let go of her all together because who really wants a wishy washy Republican Senator representing their primary interests these days. That's reality. Also, you shouldn't expect a partisan punk move not to be countered by a partisan moved that's legally justified.
Reply
#36
(01-22-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-22-2020, 02:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-20-2020, 11:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ...  I also anticipate the Democrats sending representatives around the media studios to fight the Republican attempts at silence.

Oddly, this task assignment has been taken by a group of former Republicans called The Lincoln Project.  They've already targeted Susan Collins, and several other Senators are on their hit-list.  These folks are pros, so I would expect typical pre-Trump GOP political tactics.  Let's see how that plays.

For those of you unfamiliar with any of these people, I'll note three of interest (to me, at least):
  • George Conway - the husband of Kelly-Ann Conway.  He has been a non-stop bane of Trumps from day one.
  • Steve Schmidt - a heavy hitter for a long time.  His client list includes John McCain and George W Bush.
  • Rick Wilson - he just published his second book on Trump, and he's thoroughly entertaining
Dude, you might as well get used to idea of living out the rest of your life  in a partisan country. Those dudes are done. I doubt she's going to care about anything they have to say or threaten her with because she's being judged by the Republican base who is deciding whether to keep her in office  or let go of her all together  because who really wants a wishy washy Republican Senator representing their primary interests these days. That's reality. Also, you shouldn't expect a partisan punk  move not to be countered by a partisan moved that's legally justified.

Hmm. You are counting on the 2016 environment, where the Republican base could win elections on a Trump endorsement. Recently, whenever Trump goes out and makes a 'win one for the gipper' speech, his candidate loses. Trump has just reneged on too many of his promises to the people who make up the middle of the country, and a lot of elected Republicans have not figured this out yet. He could end up electoral poison easily, carrying his base but not enough to win elections.

I still think the middle of the country is looking for someone to make the unraveling / Reagan memes work: small government, low taxes, strong military, racim, etc... The establishment Republicans have discarded themselves, giving too much to the elites, unable to have any of their candidates compete in 2016. Palin almost got there. Trump did. At this point, I anticipate Trump has flipped the flop. Whenever one party goes too far, the Independents gives the White House to the other. The question is whether the Republicans destroy themselves completely enough to break the middle of the country from the unraveling memes. I am not at all sure they have.

I will give them credit for trying, though.
Reply
#37
(01-22-2020, 11:47 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Hmm.  You are counting on the 2016 environment, where the Republican base could win elections on a Trump endorsement.  Recently, whenever Trump goes out and makes a 'win one for the gipper' speech, his candidate loses.  Trump has just reneged on too many of his promises to the people who make up the middle of the country, and a lot of elected Republicans have not figured this out yet.  He could end up electoral poison easily, carrying his base but not enough to win elections.

I still think the middle of the country is looking for someone to make the unraveling / Reagan memes work: small government, low taxes, strong military, racim, etc...  The establishment Republicans have discarded themselves, giving too much to the elites, unable to have any of their candidates compete in 2016.  Palin almost got there.  Trump did.  At this point, I anticipate Trump has flipped the flop.  Whenever one party goes too far, the Independents gives the White House to the other.  The question is whether the Republicans destroy themselves completely enough to break the middle of the country from the unraveling memes.  I am not at all sure they have.

I will give them credit for trying, though.
2016??? It's 2020. Like liberals, we weren't really sure about Trump either back in 2016. The Republican party was sort of shredded/wounded by Trump during the 2016 primary. I actually view 2016 as more of a low point for the Republican party and President Trump. I admit that Trump pulled off a major upset in 2016 pretty much on his own with little Republican support. Dude, we were all surprised by the election outcome. I had a strong hunch that he would win but I understood that the odds were heavily against him doing it. He's kept every promise that he made to his working class voters and Republican so far. The border wall is being built despite an obvious liberal road block that resulted in a government shutdown that lasted a month. NAFTA is gone. Phase1 of the new China deal is now completed and waiting for congressional approval. The Islamic State no longer exists. Republican supporters have two solid conservatives serving in the Supreme Court so far. The Republican Senate has also been balancing the courts with conservative judges.

Personally, I see construction of new factories and other new facilities in the area. I'm also been seeing nice increases in annual sales since 2017 and I've been seeing more customers who aren't afraid to spend money when they have to spend it or afraid to invest in their homes like they were before Trump entered office. If people are looking for work there are plenty of jobs available these days. Unemployment is at an all time low.

Personally, I think the liberals went to far with their impeachment of Trump and will most likely lose the house because of it. Times are different. I mean, other than a liberal who can really trust a liberal these days. Dude, I don't even use the term Democrat anymore because there aren't any true Democrats left these days and I don't recognize/view the people who call themselves liberals as actually being liberals these days either.
Reply
#38
(01-22-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-22-2020, 02:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-20-2020, 11:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ...  I also anticipate the Democrats sending representatives around the media studios to fight the Republican attempts at silence.

Oddly, this task assignment has been taken by a group of former Republicans called The Lincoln Project.  They've already targeted Susan Collins, and several other Senators are on their hit-list.  These folks are pros, so I would expect typical pre-Trump GOP political tactics.  Let's see how that plays.

For those of you unfamiliar with any of these people, I'll note three of interest (to me, at least):
  • George Conway - the husband of Kelly-Ann Conway.  He has been a non-stop bane of Trumps from day one.
  • Steve Schmidt - a heavy hitter for a long time.  His client list includes John McCain and George W Bush.
  • Rick Wilson - he just published his second book on Trump, and he's thoroughly entertaining
Dude, you might as well get used to idea of living out the rest of your life  in a partisan country. Those dudes are done. I doubt she's going to care about anything they have to say or threaten her with because she's being judged by the Republican base who is deciding whether to keep her in office  or let go of her all together  because who really wants a wishy washy Republican Senator representing their primary interests these days. That's reality. Also, you shouldn't expect a partisan punk  move not to be countered by a partisan moved that's legally justified.

The adage that nothing is permanent save change remains true, and permanence of a political consensus is as delusional as any mirage. Even technological advances are themselves transitory. The giant mainframe computer with huge arrays of blinking incandescent lights as one saw on the original Star Trek series or the more obscure Desk Set  (a 1957 flick involving Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn) is now grossly obsolete, but both once suggested either contemporary or distant-future modernity; we now handle synthetic knowledge far differently, as even a gaming machine or a Kindle has far greater simplicity of display and operation.  Even the incandescent light that Thomas Edison invented and Gutenberg's printing press have shown signs of being supplanted by more-sophisticated technologies. What might be permanent as a consequence of and Gutenberg's printing press and Edison's incandescent light is the human habits (literacy and 24-hour cycles of life fully occupied) that more sophisticated and economical inventions allow.

I may remember when partisan divides were less severe, when some of the most politically-liberal people were Republicans. Do you remember Ed Brooke? Charles Percy? Mark Hatfield? You may be surprised that if you look at an overlay between the elections of Dwight Eisenhower and Barack Obama that both won what are now the most politically-liberal states in America.  OK, I have explained that one before: 

Quote:[Image: genusmap.php?year=2008&ev_c=1&pv_p=1&ev_...&NE3=2;3;7]
 
gray -- did not vote in 1952 or 1956
white -- Eisenhower twice, Obama twice
deep blue -- Republican all four elections
light blue -- Republican all but 2008 (I assume that greater Omaha went for Ike twice)
light green -- Eisenhower once, Stevenson once, Obama never
dark green -- Stevenson twice, Obama never
pink -- Stevenson twice, Obama once 

No state voted Democratic all four times, so no state is in deep red. 

(This site uses the very old red for Democrats and blue for Republicans... I do not make waves about that in that website).

To be sure, one would expect any winning President to win almost entirely states that FDR won in 1936 (all then voting except Vermont and Maine), that Nixon won in 1972 (all but Massachusetts), or Reagan won in 1980 (all but Minnesota).  But the overlay between Obama and Eisenhower fits far better includes all four such states that FDR, Nixon, and Reagan won in nearly-complete wins of the entire USA. As another coincidence, Eisenhower was the first Republican to win Virginia since 1928 (24 years) and Obama was the first Democrat to win the Old Dominion since 1964 (44 years) -- and both won the state twice.
   
OK, Eisenhower and Obama were similar in temperament despite differences in origin and curricula vitae, and Eisenhower was least effective in winning votes in states in or on the fringe of the South. Although Obama did badly in states whose economies had large sectors of ranching and mining, he also did well except in those states and those that Eisenhower typically lost. Obama did not win by landslides similar to those of Eisenhower, but even with differences of partisan identity the correlation is strong. Except for the states in which ranching is a big part of the economy (mining has declined as a share of the American economy) both Eisenhower and Obama fared best, in general, in states in which had the highest levels of formal education as norms.  Massachusetts and Minnesota are infamously hostile to anti-intellectual appeals now and were also so in the 1950's. Without intention, Adlai Stephenson, John McCain, and Mitt Romney did well with dumb white people who have more fear of the schoolmarm as an exploiter than of the feudal-style big landowner or the sweatshop exploiter. 

(All right -- Nevada and New Mexico used to be decidedly-conservative states when those two states were far more rural and less urban than they are, when mining and ranching were big shares of the economic life of both states and before the states had politically-potent Hispanic majorities concentrated heavily in the largest cities. See how Arizona and Colorado have trended, too. California used to be more conservative than the US as a whole because it concentrated conservatives from elsewhere in America; that is over). Nevada and New Mexico have become very liberal while miners in Kentucky and West Virginia used to turn out reliably for Democrats have lost relevance.        

Historical results are permanent influences; the world still has repercussions of the Roman Empire and of the spread of Islam. Most significantly, human nature seems to change little. Judaism remains a vibrant community while seeming to answer the same questions that it did more than two millennia ago because key aspects of human nature do not change. Ancient Greek philosophy remains a cornerstone of modern intellectual life because it explains natural realities and aspects of human interaction that we cannot deny. Plato's Republic  offers portents both to Adam Smith in recognizing individual specialization as the key to economic achievement and  to Sigmund Freud's tripartite division (id, ego, and superego). Ancient Greek art and architecture art still appeals to us because the same aesthetic realities hold true today. 

Fads are transitory in the extreme, and catastrophic failures discredit themselves. The catastrophic failures of the Third Reich and of thug Japan make Germany and Japan far less likely to fall for militaristic, genocidal regimes than the USA. The Germans and Japanese have learned the hard way that conquest and subjection of helpless people to be transformed into helots or corpses is the most effective way to experience national disgrace and political trauma. If there are any people least likely to replicate KZ-lager Dachau or the Bataan Death March, then such people are the Germans and Japanese. Even Vladimir Putin, who has a repressive regime in Russia, dares not revive the Gulag among people who dread it. I can think of Americans who would establish KZ-lager or inflict such horrors as the Bataan Death March:

[Image: 220px-Children_with_Dr._Samuel_Green%2C_...C_1948.jpg]  

A fair warning to such people: in view of the military successes of the Japanese thug empire of WWII, I would warn people like this that without thuggery, Japan would beat the crap out of a fascistic thug America in a "Second Great Pacific War" if there were such a war  because of its ability to improvise a fearsome war machine that, after conquering American outposts of brutality would behave itself well as conquerors and judge any American war criminals that it caught as harshly as American conquerors treated Japanese war criminals in the  "First Great Pacific War" (the Pacific theater of WWII). Japan may have a good record on civil rights and political freedom, but it treats criminals harshly. It hangs murderers and subjects garden-variety criminals to the sort of treatment that China uses upon the political offenders that it does not execute -- thought reform. Do not go to Japan if you are a criminal.   

........

That Obama wins look more like Eisenhower wins than like those of any other Presidents despite the two being from the opposite Parties as political constructs shows how political loyalties can change. American politics are coalition politics, and people with cultural dissimilarities  and differences of social position can become allies. As an example, Mexican-Americans may not seem much like Ashkenazic Jews, but both have much respect for formal education (even if more recent Mexican-American immigrants and their descendants have been less successful in getting formal education as a group) and see anti-intellectual demagoguery as threats to either their established positions (Jews with high social-economic status, or SES) or their hopes (Mexican-Americans with low SES but high respect for formal learning).  

The political reality of America is very different from what it was in 1976. To be sure, the 2008 Presidential election was not really close, and the 1976 Presidential election was close:

Now, Carter vs. Obama 

Quote:If anyone has any doubt that the Presidential Election of 1976 is ancient history for all practical purposes:

Carter 1976, Obama 2008/2012    

[Image: genusmap.php?year=2004&ev_c=1&pv_p=1&ev_...&NE3=2;1;5]

Carter 1976, Obama twice  red
Carter 1976, Obama once pink
Carter 1976, Obama never yellow
Ford 1976, Obama twice white
Ford 1976, Obama once light blue
Ford 1976, Obama never blue

....As you can see, Carter lost a raft of states (among them California, Oregon, Washington, Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, Vermont, and Maine) that Democratic nominees for President have not lost after 1988, and some states (Iowa, Nevada, Michigan, New Hampshire, and New Mexico) that Democrats have not LOST in Presidential wins. On the other side, Carter was the last Democrat to win Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, or Texas. Barring a major realignment of the states in partisan identity or an electoral blowout, Republicans are unlikely to win more than a state or two in white and Democrats are unlikely to win more than a state or two in yellow for the next couple of decades..



In view of current approval polls and polls showing match-ups between Trump and every potential Democratic challenger in 2020, I expect to see an electoral map of 2020 with the Democrat winning an electoral map that looks much like 2008 or 2012, if not like 1952 or 1956 for Eisenhower. I understand that you see Donald Trump as the Wave of the Future in American politics, and I see him as a severe aberration who exploited economic distress and cultural divisions and solved nothing. I see analogues to Trump in exploiting economic distress (FDR, Reagan, Obama) and political divisions (Eisenhower, Reagan, Obama) for electoral success but see him completely unable to solve anything -- which makes him a poor analogue to such political successes as FDR, Eisenhower, Reagan, and Obama. I see him having the level of political failure as Carter without the personal decency of Carter.

You probably believe that Americans will come to their senses, recognize the impeachment of Donald Trump as an unmerited witch-hunt, recognize the greater importance of guns and Bibles than even personal prosperity, and accept that poverty is a fitting sacrifice for the only prosperity possible in America, that of extant elites gloating in their sybaritic indulgence with great opportunities for America in building castles and palaces gaudier than Schloss Neuschwanstein followed by the armies of domestic staff that will 'solve' problems of unemployment (if not poverty). Donald Trump is about as batty as Ludwig II of Bavaria, and he will have a shorter stay on the American political 'stage' than Ludwig II. Americans have yet to show a love for zany incompetence in political figures at the national level, and if they have only transitory tolerance for chilly rationalists like Eisenhower and Obama, Americans have a tendency to go back in that direction when political life gets crazy or shaky. Maybe Hillary Clinton was too much 'more of the same' as Americans got tired of such in Obama, just as Americans were ready for an ebullient John Kennedy after the dry-as-dust Dwight Eisenhower. America seems ready for another Eisenhower or Obama that the Republicans cannot now offer so long as Trump or Pence is President. 

Kennedy seemed on the way to a solid re-election before Lee Harvey Oswald took a pot-shot at him. Trump is not on the way to a solid re-election. I can easily see scenarios of narrow defeat (Ford in 1976), decisive defeat (GHWB in 1992) or even catastrophic defeat (Hoover 1932, Carter 1980), and I cannot select between those yet -- and I am choosing between incumbents as analogues. Losing about the same margin in popular votes from 2016 to 2020 as Obama did causes him to lose a little more than Obama did from 2008 to 2012... which is a loss.

 I can see that from generational change alone even if people generally hold the same political views that they had in 2016 that Trump loses. Voters over 55 are about 5% more Republican than Democratic but the new voters that supplant such voters who die off (about 1.5% of the electorate every year) now come almost exclusively from the Millennial generation that is about 20% more Democratic than Republican. He easily loses Michigan and readily loses Pennsylvania and puts the Democrat at 268 electoral votes, which is not enough to defeat President Trump. One electoral vote from the potentially-wayward districts ME-02 or NE-02 is enough to put the choice of President into the House of Representatives in which state delegations decide. In such a case, gerrymanders from 2010 give the votes of Michigan and Pennsylvania delegations to the Republicans and a 50-member difference in the delegation from California will mean less than the single Republican Representatives from North Dakota and South Dakota. (Should the Democrats negate such a reality in the House then they have probably won a wave election on the scale of that of 1958 in the House and Senate as well as a 1964-scale landslide for the Presidency as well). Both ME-02 and NE-02 as well as Michigan and Pennsylvania give the Democrat the Presidency. Any full state in addition to Michigan and Pennsylvania -- the electorally-smallest within imagination being Iowa, and Trump has no reasonable way of winning Colorado, Maine, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, or Virginia, the states that he lost by less than 10% in 2016 in view of polls that I have seen) -- wins for the Democrat. Trump does not have a firm grip on Arizona, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Ohio, or Wisconsin, states themselves very different in political culture and economic reality.   

To win re-election, Trump must convince people who thought Hillary Clinton acceptable and that he wasn't that he is acceptable this time -- or get about a 50-50 split among new voters. Trump does not fit Millennial culture and has no clue about it. To them he is the classic expression of the creepy Dirty Old Man with some screws loose, someone whom parents would tell their children to avoid (to be sure that type has existed in all generations, and is not specific to Boomers) -- and that is before anyone discusses the political scandals of our time. The sort of creepy Dirty Old Man who has some screws loose that their parents warned children about is just as ominous to a young adult, especially to young women.  

I must go into mental contortions to imagine a Trump re-election. "He loses TEXAS!" is even easier for me to imagine -- and I consider that highly unlikely.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
#39
(01-22-2020, 07:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-22-2020, 02:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-20-2020, 11:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: ...  I also anticipate the Democrats sending representatives around the media studios to fight the Republican attempts at silence.

Oddly, this task assignment has been taken by a group of former Republicans called The Lincoln Project.  They've already targeted Susan Collins, and several other Senators are on their hit-list.  These folks are pros, so I would expect typical pre-Trump GOP political tactics.  Let's see how that plays.

For those of you unfamiliar with any of these people, I'll note three of interest (to me, at least):
  • George Conway - the husband of Kelly-Ann Conway.  He has been a non-stop bane of Trumps from day one.
  • Steve Schmidt - a heavy hitter for a long time.  His client list includes John McCain and George W Bush.
  • Rick Wilson - he just published his second book on Trump, and he's thoroughly entertaining

Dude, you might as well get used to idea of living out the rest of your life  in a partisan country. Those dudes are done. I doubt she's going to care about anything they have to say or threaten her with because she's being judged by the Republican base who is deciding whether to keep her in office  or let go of her all together  because who really wants a wishy washy Republican Senator representing their primary interests these days. That's reality. Also, you shouldn't expect a partisan punk  move not to be countered by a partisan moved that's legally justified.

These are pros.  They're playing the numbers game.  If 5 or 6 Senate seats switch GOP to Dem, Mitch McConnell is out as Majority leader and the Senate nonsense of the last 5 years will end abruptly.  So will Trump's ability to manipulate Congress and operate with impunity -- assuming he is reelected.  Remember, the House is almost certainly going to remain in Dem hands, so impeachment, 2.0 is very possible.  With Mitch out, the rules will shift to full-trial mode. Even barring a second impeachment, no Trump legislation will pass through Congress, nor will any Trump appointments.

If The Lincoln Project succeeds, it's more likely that Trump will fall with the Senate.  At that point, the Dems will have full control and no reason not to run the board.  McConnell and Trump have made that not just possible but nearly inevitable. After all, they argued that bad behavior is part and parcel of winning elections.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
Reply
#40
(01-23-2020, 04:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Personally, I see construction of new factories and other new facilities in the area. I'm also been seeing a nice  increase in annual  sales since 2017 and I've been  seeing more customers who aren't afraid to spend money when they have to spend it or afraid to invest in their homes like they were before Trump entered office. If people are looking for work there are plenty of jobs available these days. Dude, employment is at an all time low.

Trump's obscene tax cut have dumped about $2 Trillion into the economy so far. That would be Keynesian stimulus on steroids, if it hadn't been targeted at the wealthy and corporations. So yes, there has been stimulus, but less than that much should have created. Now it's running out of steam. The added debt is still there, though, and more is on the way. What happens when interest rates shoot up dramatically? All this debt needs to be financed, and the old debt needs to be as well. Debt service on $22 Trillion is $440 Billion annually at 2%. If that goes up to 4%, as it has in the past, the debt service rises to just under a $1 Trillion. Massive new debt and zero stimulus adds up to a major recession.

Classic-Xer Wrote:Personally, I think the liberals went to far with their impeachment of Trump and will most likely lose the house because of it. I mean, other than a liberal, who can really trust a liberal these days. Dude, I don't even use the term Democrat anymore and I don't recognize/view the people who call themselves liberals as actually being liberals these days either.

Congratulations, you are now a product of the massive disinformation campaigns by the Russians, Fox News and the rest of the alt-right conservative influence peddlers. Remember, fantasy is just that: just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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