debate

[TheNomad]

Is anyone else dumbfounded?

I urge anyone to pay attention to what is really happening between the 2 ancient emblems. Attacks and numbers. Pledging things, then spewing numbers, then the other guy attacking the numbers as false, repeat.

i'm not shocked ppl don't want to vote and see it as purposeless. As much as we want to see a different face and embodiment up there, the effort even to be involved weighed against possible benefit is a very difficult thing for a younger person to take or accept.  Younger people want to be involved and excited. They know problems can be solved. They are simply lost in a ditherment of older folks who either don't trust them or don't believe in them, or the elders have something else, a very personal crusade they are on, with America as their weary platform.

[Bob Butler 54]

The problems is that you are worshiping a fixed system with a closed mind, converting a non hate based system into a hate based system, and not checking against reality.

Well, maybe not all the problems, but that will do for a start.

[TheNomad]

(03-15-2020, 10:10 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The problems is that you are worshiping a fixed system with a closed mind, converting a non hate based system into a hate based system, and not checking against reality.

Well, maybe not all the problems, but that will do for a start.

I am always putting myself in the position to learn and grow.  What's the fixed system?  Are you saying I am hateful? Like, on a personal level in this medium?  I guess we can begin there.

I'm of late becoming hesitant when anyone says "reality" that way. As in "you don't accept reality" - there is a fixed, defined system I worship and know to be true, my mind is closed, you are outside that "reality".

Can anyone really do this ^^ with a straight face anymore?

But forget that, I want to learn.

[Bob Butler 54]

The fixed system is a variant of S&H, with boomers portrayed negatively and the younger stereotypes positively.  Things will allegedly get better when the boomers go away.  This is opposite of S&H where the portray each generational stereotype positively as well as viewing the Crisis configuration especially as constructive, and multiple stereotypes meshing well.

No, it is not a personal hatred, but more like how the red and blue treat each other generally.  Many cling to one perspective and distrust the other.  I know I at least do not apply the S&H stereotypes in personal life.  There are real people out there, and I would be very reluctant to assume they have specific traits until they are demonstrated.  But if people believe in small government, cut taxes, and the other common Red patterns, the familiar elements of confrontation come out.  You have similar confrontational elements with respect to the generations.

You are not really alone.

World views come in many flavors: political, scientific, religious, etc…. I am or try to be more scientific, though there are certain questions that cannot be verified so easily.  I assume, for example, that all men are created politically and legally equal, but how does one prove something so abstract?  I just find the political systems I like tend to make the equality assumption.  But there are so many more concrete questions that can more easily be checked.  If you can check them, you do.

One thing I find is that certain easily verified things just bounce off you.  For example, If your understanding of the S&H generational stereotypes and generational alignments are challenged, you just ignore the challenge and continue to discuss your system as if the problem had not been pointed out.  The habit of ignoring verifiable fact and just repeating your fixed system does not speak well of your ability to learn.

But in this you are hardly alone.  In talking guns, you get some people who will insist that prohibition will work this time.  When the talk is about the economy, other people will insist that this time voodoo economics will not inevitably collapse after about seven years in.  When talking religion, some people are dedicated to the Bible being literally true, and throw away whole branches of science and politics if they contradict.  People buy into weird alternate realities.  The Fox News perspective is just one of the more famous.  Your own system is one of many that has this flaw.

If you aren’t dedicated to scientific fact, that you verify as much as one can against reality, you get into trouble.  That you do not do this habitually, that you detach yourself from checking against reality, seems a problem.  Too many people will these days.

[TheNomad]

(03-16-2020, 06:00 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The fixed system is a variant of S&H, with boomers portrayed negatively and the younger stereotypes positively.  

I did not do that at all.  If anyone will not read entire posts, they shouldn't be commenting.  I took no positive v negative stand. You may also be stuck in a sort of dualism when a completely spectrum should be a focus.

Prophet flushes out a stale culture.   I think many would say that is a positive.  Although, not to the lovers of smooth Jazz of the 1950s and the idea TV should depict what should be instead of what is (reflecting only certain Americans).  This was much needed and none of us can imagine a world where the 1960s did not happen.  Back when I was younger and did not know as much, I may have said the 1960s was unnecessary and even perhaps vain, and I may have taken this "inner journey" thing as a total offense.  But it was so necessary. So many people were liberated even by default. A forcegrip of the old regime broken open to allow the freedom to grow and change - to evolve. I am not one who will say "the dirty hippies ruined everything".  I'm smarter than that.  I demand credit.

Every arm of the Saeculum has both positives and negatives.  The positive of Nomad is the total and complete practicality and pragmatism they bring.

*everything I have just said is within the realm of Straus and Howe*

What is ALSO in the realm of Strauss and Howe you don't want to deal with, the idea the time of the benefit of the Prophet is over. The Prophet is now holding on too long (they said it in plain words if not very implied) and some could say they are further injuring America simply by remaining.  But nut just by being alive.  But by refusing to relinquish power due to their belief ONLY THEY can get us through.  ONLY THEY have the ability to see through this. 

ONLY THEY can save us.  When, in fact, in so many ways, they are keeping us within this spiral of blocked bowel syndrome.

I would guess every archetype in the Strauss & Howe Saeculum model has benefits but also hindrances.  It's always best to know when you are helping and when hindering.

Quote:Things will allegedly get better when the boomers go away.  This is opposite of S&H where the portray each generational stereotype positively as well as viewing the Crisis configuration especially as constructive, and multiple stereotypes meshing well.

This is untrue.  Rather, this is a misrepresentation (I will try to avoid sounding like a personal attack).  They do not portray each archetype as positive OR negative.  They examine each archetype based on - I guess - for what they wrote the texts for.  But they didn't seem to me to be doing a dualistic thing.  Is that from you or from them?

Quote:Many cling to one perspective and distrust the other.  

No clingy for you tho?  

Quote:I know I at least do not apply the S&H stereotypes in personal life.  

They are meant to be applied stereotypically.  How else can they be applied?  The archetypal models (ALL ARCHETYPES) are - by definition - stereotypes.  That word is not a bad word.  It means generalization.

[TheNomad]

I apologize to anyone coming to comment about the debate, this became a different thing.

[Bob Butler 54]

The primary feature of your 'System" is that when the evil boomers go away, things will get better. There is some truth to that in that the demographic shift has the red older than the blue. Thus, it wouldn't be surprising, other things being equal, to see the red philosophies aging out and losing ground. The logjam will break when the refusal to see problems so that one can have a small government that is part of the Red way of looking at things dies.

This is not S&H. They saw the ideological generation in elder hood, the nomads in middle management, and the civics in young adulthood as a fortunate advantageous configuration. Lots of stuff happened in the Industrial Age in this configuration. In the Information Age, we have been struggling to get an effective Trigger in part due to the reluctance to start a MAD Crisis war. Crisis wars started often in the Industrial Age. Until the virus, we have not had a clear Trigger, and it is early days for the virus. Thus, I saw the Awakening or even the High as the transforming time. If the virus catches on as a trigger, we might have a transforming Crisis after all. if not military.

It does seem obvious that people stick to their own beliefs rather than yield to argument. In this you are hardly alone. A good deal of this is that dedication to one's own beliefs overcomes the desire to check against reality. In my youth, attending university, I was an engineering major who belonged to the Christian Fellowship. My worldview struggled between scientific and religious. Science won. Science depends heavily on experiment and observation, checking against reality. For a lot of people, religion or politics is more important than science or reality. If their beliefs are heavily engaged, they will stop checking against reality. They will insist something is true which is obviously not.

You have this problem, as do many. Your lack of ability to comprehend the above is an indicator. Not agree, but ability to comprehend. I can keep trying to make my point in ever clearer ways. Part of why I am here is to try to communicate with people who do not want to communicate. They are more interested in proving their beliefs true. They will argue their own perspective, but avoid listening to other perspectives.

Learning can involve listening as well as observing reality. However, should you ever listen enough to think you have learned something, still you might still want to check against reality.

[Eric the Green]

(03-15-2020, 09:25 PM)TheNomad Wrote: Is anyone else dumbfounded?

I urge anyone to pay attention to what is really happening between the 2 ancient emblems. Attacks and numbers. Pledging things, then spewing numbers, then the other guy attacking the numbers as false, repeat.

i'm not shocked ppl don't want to vote and see it as purposeless. As much as we want to see a different face and embodiment up there, the effort even to be involved weighed against possible benefit is a very difficult thing for a younger person to take or accept.  Younger people want to be involved and excited. They know problems can be solved. They are simply lost in a ditherment of older folks who either don't trust them or don't believe in them, or the elders have something else, a very personal crusade they are on, with America as their weary platform.

It's too bad younger voters are represented by a 78-year old, and older voters by a 77-year old. Both sets of voters are on the blue team. One is deep blue, while the other is some shade of blue lighter; no-one is sure how much lighter, including the candidate.

But relatively speaking, both candidates are on the side of solving problems, not on some personal crusade. The candidates available are purely a function of the candidates who ran. Most were not good candidates, and a good president needs to be a good candidate to win, and those two characteristics are not the same. If the best candidates do not run, we are stuck with who steps up. We were always going to be stuck with 3 old geezers or maybe 4 no matter what, not because the candidates running are geezers, but because that's all that are available.

The younger folks will either need to get behind the blue candidate, or just sit back and watch the country turn and whistle in the wind as it falls apart in its tumble towards banana republic status. Which may happen anyway if the light-blue candidate cannot get things moving.

There's a chance it may survive in well-enough shape 4 years from now so that destruction leads to a new rebirth in 2024-25. But only a chance, and the resistance to change from Herd B (as you call them) will be so powerful and feel so entitled by then that violence between the herds will be inevitable, now matter who wins in 2024. And the side that brings on the violence will lose. And if it's Herd A that has to violently revolt, the country is done.

[TheNomad]

(03-16-2020, 11:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [quote pid='50255' dateline='1584325507']
But relatively speaking, both candidates are on the side of solving problems, not on some personal crusade.

[/quote]
If you care (not care as in you have a tear in your eye but want to understand) this shocks me.
When I read it the first time, it shocked me.  But then, I became sort of shocked with an outrageous shock level.
You can't mean Sanders is not on a crusade. I perhaps align most with him in this, in that change must be THAT strong. But I cannot in any context view him as someone not completely driven by ideology and that somehow, he is the only one that can bring the change. Not him as in he wants to rule or whatever, but his OFFICE, the thing he embodies. He is channeling the lightning. Maybe it is. I can't envision anyone to almost 8- and with heart conditions and wants the most stressful job on planet earth
YOU CAN ACCEPT THAT PREMISE AND NOT DOUBT YOURSELF THAT'S SHOCKING
And mr Biden who rubbed with greatest on obama, that he believes anyone takes him seriously and the two things I just mentioned ARE THE ONLY REASONS ANYONE TAKES HIM SERIOUSLY but again, a man touching 80 and Sinai with no job left and was second highest office in land, and now is "there's a line, guys, it's my turn" and the idea he has been championing things since before I was born means he is right,
YOU CANNOT ACCEPT THE PREMISE NOT DRIVEN BY IDEOLOGY
if you cant rethink that, my premise is proved, you are no different from zombies inhabiting the other side who believe they must cling to destroying planned parenthood because their seat in heaven depends on what they did with their office when they had it and all that except from the bizzarro universe that is the other side of the mirror

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-16-2020, 07:36 PM)TheNomad Wrote: I apologize to anyone coming to comment about the debate, this became a different thing.

There is some commonality.  Part of the blue collection of ideas is that certain things should be science driven, based on reality.  Still, it is unevenly applied.  The idea of lying as Trump does and building an alternate reality as Fox does is rejected, but many with blue leanings ignore fact and prefer ideology. Your ideology, based on blaming Boomers and working a variation of S&H is just another variant ideology. The fact that many blues do not share the ideology that you attribute to them is just another lie, similar to Trump's, designed to further acceptance of the ideology.