So....is Biden the "grey champion"

[David Horn]

(04-30-2020, 12:02 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(04-30-2020, 11:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-30-2020, 11:28 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Eric, the key marker of neoliberals is that they favor globalism.  That's much more the Democrats than the Republicans at present.

I doubt that.  Yes, the most vocal Republicans are acting all protectionist, but the business community (overwhelming Republican) likes the cheap labor and the ability to arbitrage everything.  I don't see that being thrown away just because DJT is President.  At most, he'll be gone in 4 and half years.  The business vultures are here for the duration, unless the Democrats defang them.

Immigration restriction, which like protectionism is anathema to globalists, became a Republican issue before Trump, as early as 2010.  Democrats are very much on the side of neoliberal globalists there.  I agree there are both Republicans and Democrats who oppose the trade wars, but in the case of the Republicans, it's not at all clear they will last 4.5 years.

When I see an end to the guest worker program and H-1B visas, I'll believe that the business community is anti-immigration.  Americans don't pick crops, slaughter hogs or pack seafood.  Until that changes, guest workers will always be miraculously exempt from the limitations we place on "others". We might be seeing a modification to the global supply chain (which was an overblown idea from day one), but I doubt we'll be returning all those jobs to the US -- unless they are  automated into non-existence.  The same applies to the agricultural work.  

And let's admit it: H-1B visas are legalized pseudo-slavery.  The visas are owned by the companies doing the hiring.  If the person benefitting from a visa complains too much, he or she is merely replaced by a more compliant alternative.  If we really need all these educated folks that badly, hand out Green Cards and keep the playing field even for all -- migrant and native.

[Eric the Green]

(04-30-2020, 12:02 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(04-30-2020, 11:44 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(04-30-2020, 11:28 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: Eric, the key marker of neoliberals is that they favor globalism.  That's much more the Democrats than the Republicans at present.

I doubt that.  Yes, the most vocal Republicans are acting all protectionist, but the business community (overwhelming Republican) likes the cheap labor and the ability to arbitrage everything.  I don't see that being thrown away just because DJT is President.  At most, he'll be gone in 4 and half years.  The business vultures are here for the duration, unless the Democrats defang them.

Immigration restriction, which like protectionism is anathema to globalists, became a Republican issue before Trump, as early as 2010.  Democrats are very much on the side of neoliberal globalists there.  I agree there are both Republicans and Democrats who oppose the trade wars, but in the case of the Republicans, it's not at all clear they will last 4.5 years.

Democrats favor fair immigration, as opposed to unnecessary xenophobic restrictions of asylum seekers and the torture and killing of young immigrants. Republicans are both neo-liberals and xenophobes, and Republicans have before Trump been more in favor of free trade than Democrats, who represent labor interests. But yes there are free trade Democrats too, most notably presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.

Yes, Trump has always favored tariffs and opposed free trade. That is not neo-liberal, and is anti-globalist, but he is neo-liberal in all his other policies. I agree with David.

[Eric the Green]

Biden has dropped in some recent polls. This may be because of the sex scandal. Trump hasn't gained anything though. Here's the latest averages:

President Trump Job Approval
Approve44.1
Disapprove50.8
Disapprove +6.7

General Election: Trump vs. Biden
Biden47.4
Trump42.1
Biden +5.3

Friday, May 1
General Election: Trump vs. Biden IBD/TIPP Biden 43, Trump 43 Tie

Thursday, April 30
General Election: Trump vs. Biden The Hill/HarrisX Biden 42, Trump 40 Biden +2

[Anteros]

Trump is a bumbling idiot. Biden is a senile bumbling idiot that people will only vote for because he's not Trump. I don't see any millennials or zoomers rallying behind either of them. Closest we have is Bernie but even he took a bit of a hit with his reputation when he decided to endorse Clinton and Biden instead of sticking to his initial ideals.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-05-2020, 08:04 PM)Anteros Wrote: Trump is a bumbling idiot. Biden is a senile bumbling idiot that people will only vote for because he's not Trump. I don't see any millennials or zoomers rallying behind either of them. Closest we have is Bernie but even he took a bit of a hit with his reputation when he decided to endorse Clinton and Biden instead of sticking to his initial ideals.

About the only way Trump could get back in was if the Democratic vote was cut in half between Biden and Sanders. I would have preferred Sanders as well, but the Democrats chose otherwise. We will see who the VP choice is, and how much of the Democratic agenda is pushed, but to question the people's choice of the winner in the primary process in not how to get it done.

[Eric the Green]

(06-05-2020, 08:04 PM)Anteros Wrote: Trump is a bumbling idiot. Biden is a senile bumbling idiot that people will only vote for because he's not Trump. I don't see any millennials or zoomers rallying behind either of them. Closest we have is Bernie but even he took a bit of a hit with his reputation when he decided to endorse Clinton and Biden instead of sticking to his initial ideals.

Perhaps, but it is not fair to say that Sanders didn't stick to his initial ideals when he decided to endorse Clinton and Biden. He stuck to his ideals, and recognized that Clinton and Biden were much closer to them than Trump is.

Biden still leads about 7% in the national polls, and about 4% in the swing states that will decide the electoral vote. It may not matter if young people don't rally behind Biden, if they still vote for him, or if they aren't enough of the voters to keep him from winning because they don't vote or go third party.

Sometimes the crisis makes the man. If Biden steps up to the times and leads well, he will make himself into a gray champion whether we had ever thought about him as such or not. If he doesn't, then we may still see other gray champions arise in this 4T, as Bernie has done, and they may not be president.

For my part, although the difference between Biden and Sanders is great, and I prefer Sanders, the difference between Biden and Trump is stark and huge. I like many others would vote for a dirty washrag before voting for the drumpturd.

It's fun for me to follow the polls.
President Trump Job Approval
Approve42.9
Disapprove54.0
Disapprove +11.1

General Election: Trump vs. Biden
Biden49.3
Trump42.2
Biden +7.1

[pbrower2a]

(06-05-2020, 08:04 PM)Anteros Wrote: Trump is a bumbling idiot. Biden is a senile bumbling idiot that people will only vote for because he's not Trump. I don't see any millennials or zoomers rallying behind either of them. Closest we have is Bernie but even he took a bit of a hit with his reputation when he decided to endorse Clinton and Biden instead of sticking to his initial ideals.

Trump is not only a bumbling idiot but also a dullard too limited in his learning to recognize how out of touch with reality he is. He exemplifies Idealist vices (selfishness, arrogance, and fanaticism) with none of the virtues (culture, morality, and historical perspective). Biden at least has one of the hallmarks of an old-timer who might be successful as a politician in the role of Grey Champion: a long record of public service in executive office.

Know well that if one looks solely at qualifications for high office for diversity of experience, the optimal President would have been James Buchanan (cough, cough!).

Younger voters are strongly D -- in fact, about 60-to-40 D. Contrast other generations, at least from middle-to-early cohorts of X, Boomers, and surviving Silent and one sees that those groups are about 5% more Republican than Democratic. All that has allowed Republicans to win the elections that give them the Presidency and majorities in one or both Houses of Congress is the low participation of the Millennial generation after the GI Generation faded out of existence.  The Millennial generation at its oldest is approaching middle age, and by then it knows enough to not let the perfect become the enemy of the good.  

Get the Millennial Generation voting in large numbers, even if only out of contempt for Donald Trump, who is not the sort of Idealist to whom a Civic generation could relate, and the current GOP will lose badly. The GOP will lose badly until it cleans up its act, which could take some time.

[David Horn]

(06-05-2020, 09:16 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(06-05-2020, 08:04 PM)Anteros Wrote: Trump is a bumbling idiot. Biden is a senile bumbling idiot that people will only vote for because he's not Trump. I don't see any millennials or zoomers rallying behind either of them. Closest we have is Bernie but even he took a bit of a hit with his reputation when he decided to endorse Clinton and Biden instead of sticking to his initial ideals.

About the only way Trump could get back in was if the Democratic vote was cut in half between Biden and Sanders.  I would have preferred Sanders as well, but the Democrats chose otherwise.  We will see who the VP choice is, and how much of the Democratic agenda is pushed, but to question the people's choice of the winner in the primary process in not how to get it done.

Let me add a short note here.  Biden is the nominee because the black community got behind him 150%.  Of all the constituencies in the Democratic Party, it's the black community that is the least progressive.  Biden is a logical choice for them.  He's not my choice either, but the fact that he got the nod is unsurprising.

[Bob Butler 54]

(06-06-2020, 07:19 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let me add a short note here.  Biden is the nominee because the black community got behind him 150%.  Of all the constituencies in the Democratic Party, it's the black community that is the least progressive.  Biden is a logical choice for them.  He's not my choice either, but the fact that he got the nod is unsurprising.

I wouldn't say that they are not progressive, rather that they are focused on their own issues.  Can't blame them.  Then again, I have equality as one of the key progressive points.

[Warren Dew]

(04-30-2020, 12:51 PM)David Horn Wrote: And let's admit it: H-1B visas are legalized pseudo-slavery.  The visas are owned by the companies doing the hiring.  If the person benefitting from a visa complains too much, he or she is merely replaced by a more compliant alternative.  If we really need all these educated folks that badly, hand out Green Cards and keep the playing field even for all -- migrant and native.

I agree completely and have argued so for years.  And the same thing applies to illegal immigrant agricultural workers.

This benefits the owners of large tech businesses and some not so large - but still not small - agricultural businesses.  However, the power in the Republican party shifted starting in 2010 to workers, starting with the affluent workers and now shifting to the working class, too.  These are the people who lose the most to immigration.

The owners who benefit are increasingly shifting their allegiance to the Democrats.  Google and Twitter are ultraleft, Facebook and Apple are way left of center.  The Republican party doesn't own the big businesses any more, so they don't need to be loyal to them.

[Eric the Green]

(06-06-2020, 09:26 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(04-30-2020, 12:51 PM)David Horn Wrote: And let's admit it: H-1B visas are legalized pseudo-slavery.  The visas are owned by the companies doing the hiring.  If the person benefitting from a visa complains too much, he or she is merely replaced by a more compliant alternative.  If we really need all these educated folks that badly, hand out Green Cards and keep the playing field even for all -- migrant and native.

I agree completely and have argued so for years.  And the same thing applies to illegal immigrant agricultural workers.

This benefits the owners of large tech businesses and some not so large - but still not small - agricultural businesses.  However, the power in the Republican party shifted starting in 2010 to workers, starting with the affluent workers and now shifting to the working class, too.  These are the people who lose the most to immigration.

The owners who benefit are increasingly shifting their allegiance to the Democrats.  Google and Twitter are ultraleft, Facebook and Apple are way left of center.  The Republican party doesn't own the big businesses any more, so they don't need to be loyal to them.

If we have to look abroad for educated, qualified workers, doesn't that say something about our education system, and the neglect it has suffered under 40 years of Reaganomics?

Those companies may be switching to Democrats, or always were since they are headquartered in a blue state and a very blue area (Silicon Valley). But they are not ultra-left. Facebook refuses to quell the flood of fake news perpetrated by the Republicans, for example, and these companies tend to resist regulation just like others do. Other types of corporations are still largely loyal to Republicans, such as big oil and big pharma. A real progressive president would insist on regulation and even break-up of some of these Silicon Valley behemoths, and then they might not be so loyal. And if Democrats were to change the supreme court and the senate so that political reforms would pass, then these companies might not be able to buy influence as easily, and it would not matter so much what Party they support.

The H-1B visas are a problem for educated middle-class or upper-class workers in high tech. But scapegoating poor immigrants for the middle-class, educated H-1B visa immigration problems misses the point. Scapegoating poor immigrants does fool some working class folks in red and purple states, but they might not be fooled as often in the future when they see what a terrible leader this scapegoating has produced, and how little treating them unfairly accomplishes in bringing back the jobs which their bosses have taken away from them.

Workers need to see that their bosses are their adversaries, and to insist on Democrats getting elected, and insisting that they keep their promise to make unions easier to form and operate, to raise tariffs appropriately, and to raise minimum wages and raise taxes on rich, extortionist CEOs so that money can be redistributed through needed tax credits, grants, social programs, education, investments and infrastructure that help the economy. And regulate them so they don't destroy their environment as they are doing, and ruin democracy and destroy the economy with speculation as they do. And reform H-1B visa systems too. 

The class war has been raging all along, and the workers have been losing it. They need to start fighting back and winning the war again. They need to wake up from the delusion that the capitalists are their friends who will pass on their tax breaks and benefits from lax regulations to them, and realize that the trickle-down theory is false. They need to start voting on the basis of the class war, and not on false values like gun rights and religious-right discrimination, or blaming ethnic groups who get welfare; values which the Republicans benefit from at the ballot box and use them to keep them down with their economic policies.

[David Horn]

(06-06-2020, 09:26 AM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(04-30-2020, 12:51 PM)David Horn Wrote: And let's admit it: H-1B visas are legalized pseudo-slavery.  The visas are owned by the companies doing the hiring.  If the person benefitting from a visa complains too much, he or she is merely replaced by a more compliant alternative.  If we really need all these educated folks that badly, hand out Green Cards and keep the playing field even for all -- migrant and native.

I agree completely and have argued so for years.  And the same thing applies to illegal immigrant agricultural workers.

This benefits the owners of large tech businesses and some not so large - but still not small - agricultural businesses.  However, the power in the Republican party shifted starting in 2010 to workers, starting with the affluent workers and now shifting to the working class, too.  These are the people who lose the most to immigration.

The owners who benefit are increasingly shifting their allegiance to the Democrats.  Google and Twitter are ultraleft, Facebook and Apple are way left of center.  The Republican party doesn't own the big businesses any more, so they don't need to be loyal to them.

I see no evidence that either party cares all that much about workers.  The GOP has always been the bastion of the business class, and the neoliberals in the Democratic Party merely joined the team.  But claiming that Trump and others of his ilk have done anything to help those working for a living is a joke.  Even his pseudo-populist actions, like opening National Monuments to exploitation, has been focused on the business interests doing the exploiting, not the people working for them.  On the other hand, he's tried to kill universal healthcare (it's bad, but it's better than nothing at all) and decrease spending on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, while piling on the gravy for businesses of all types.  He's a plutocrat.  Eventually, Trumpists will have to see that too.