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Which turning and archetype is most joyful?
#1
I would say the 1T is most joyful, at least in terms of worldly happiness. But a 2T might offer spiritual ecstasy to some.

When it comes to archetypes, I would vote for Artists with their whimsical sense of humour. Prophets have too much rage, Civics are too mechanical and Nomads too grumpy.
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#2
I would say the 3T is most joyful: material plenty and maximal political freedom to go with it.

Agreed with respect to archetypes, though part of the reason adult Adaptives are joyful may be that they are among those that survived. That could be something to be happy about.
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#3
(05-05-2020, 09:01 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: I would say the 3T is most joyful:  material plenty and maximal political freedom to go with it.

Agreed with respect to archetypes, though part of the reason adult Adaptives are joyful may be that they are among those that survived.  That could be something to be happy about.

3Ts are the 'eating of the seed corn' eras. Yes, they are enjoyable for those in a position to enjoy the fruits of prior efforts, but they suck mightily for most others.  That said, let's not ignore their sinister nature. They are the predicate to the 4Ts that follow.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#4
You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.
Steve Barrera

[A]lthough one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. - Hagakure

Saecular Pages
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#5
(05-05-2020, 09:58 AM)sbarrera Wrote: You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.

That's a good synopsis, but a bit overly generous to the last 1T.  A lot of scum crawled out of the pond in the 1950s, including Trump's original mouthpiece: Roy Cohn.  And let's agree that saccharine books and movies leave a bitter after taste unless they're done exceptionally well. It was a good time to be a kid, but I'm not so sure it was a great time to be an adult.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#6
(05-05-2020, 09:18 AM)David Horn Wrote: 3Ts are the 'eating of the seed corn' eras. Yes, they are enjoyable for those in a position to enjoy the fruits of prior efforts, but they suck mightily for most others.

Perhaps this most recent one was an exception, then.  I suppose you could say the 2T set the stage by starting the cracks in the obsolete, calcified structures of the 1T, clearing the way for full unraveling of them to make way for new, more productive freedom of the 3T.
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#7
In which turning is childhood the best? 1T or 3T? What about young adulthood, midlife, or elderhood?
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#8
(05-05-2020, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:58 AM)sbarrera Wrote: You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.

That's a good synopsis, but a bit overly generous to the last 1T.  A lot of scum crawled out of the pond in the 1950s, including Trump's original mouthpiece: Roy Cohn.  And let's agree that saccharine books and movies leave a bitter after taste unless they're done exceptionally well. It was a good time to be a kid, but I'm not so sure it was a great time to be an adult.
The Elvis era of the mid to late 1T may have been the best time to be a teenager while the 2T was the best time to be a single adult. That time rather suddenly came to an end with the AIDS scare of the mid-1980s. For the male gender a hard penis was as good as hard currency.
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#9
(05-05-2020, 09:58 AM)sbarrera Wrote: You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.

So you'd say it's early 3T? Maybe that's why there is still 1980s nostalgia ;P The 3T was quite good to be a teenager or young adult, the party life was vibrant and the entertainment was exciting, youthful and full of vitality as recently as the early 2000s, before social media the drained energy. But I never appreciated the "classical Xer" cynical attitude that permeated 1990s pop-culture.

(05-05-2020, 10:10 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: The Elvis era of the mid to late 1T may have been the best time to be a teenager while the 2T was the best time to be a single adult. That time rather suddenly came to an end with the AIDS scare of the mid-1980s. For the male gender a hard penis was as good as hard currency.

Well said!

Camz Wrote:In which turning is childhood the best? 1T or 3T? What about young adulthood, midlife, or elderhood?

During the 1T children have far more freedom, I don't think a sheltered 3T/4T childhood is as wonderful as many Millennials think. Missionaries had a wonderful childhood, didn't you read Anne of Green Gables?
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#10
(05-05-2020, 07:44 PM)Camz Wrote: In which turning is childhood the best? 1T or 3T? What about young adulthood, midlife, or elderhood?

Fourth turning for childhood, I think.  Children are treasured and sheltered from all the bad stuff going on.  Definitely not first turning, when you have all these self important Civics around thinking they're the next best thing to God because they participated in some war from ancient history from before you were born.

Young adulthood, I'd say 2T; it's the only turning where young adults actually get to influence the course of events.  Midlife and elderhood, I'd go for the 3T when things are most prosperous.
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#11
Disagree about that Warren in regards to the 4T.
It all depends on the actual 4T in question. Most end up in some form of major war that is going to affect the major population. I can't see how watching your Dad's head getting blown off or sheltering from enemy bombing makes for a very happy childhood....
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#12
(05-05-2020, 04:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:18 AM)David Horn Wrote: 3Ts are the 'eating of the seed corn' eras. Yes, they are enjoyable for those in a position to enjoy the fruits of prior efforts, but they suck mightily for most others.

Perhaps this most recent one was an exception, then.  I suppose you could say the 2T set the stage by starting the cracks in the obsolete, calcified structures of the 1T, clearing the way for full unraveling of them to make way for new, more productive freedom of the 3T.

Your productive freedom was realized as less security for most others.  This 3T and the 4T up to this point, have become as unequal a period as the Gilded Age 1.0. So yes, the top 10% have done fine -- especially the top 1%.  The rest, not so much.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#13
(05-06-2020, 10:31 AM)Isoko Wrote: Disagree about that Warren in regards to the 4T.
It all depends on the actual 4T in question. Most end up in some form of major war that is going to affect the major population. I can't see how watching your Dad's head getting blown off or sheltering from enemy bombing makes for a very happy childhood....

I was thinking specifically about the last US fourth turning, but you're right, we were lucky the war didn't actually affect us that way.  I was meaning to add, "for those that survived", but forgot.

Until the Crisis War, things can be pretty good for the kids, though.
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#14
(05-06-2020, 10:31 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 04:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:18 AM)David Horn Wrote: 3Ts are the 'eating of the seed corn' eras. Yes, they are enjoyable for those in a position to enjoy the fruits of prior efforts, but they suck mightily for most others.

Perhaps this most recent one was an exception, then.  I suppose you could say the 2T set the stage by starting the cracks in the obsolete, calcified structures of the 1T, clearing the way for full unraveling of them to make way for new, more productive freedom of the 3T.

Your productive freedom was realized as less security for most others.

To the contrary.  While wages rose only slowly in the 3T, and a significant proportion of the excess productivity did enrich the elites, much of the excess productivity was spent in ensuring more security for nonelites, specifically through financing the Social Security Ponzi scheme that made GI and Silent retirees so much more secure, and through welfare programs that made those "unable" to work more secure.

Inequality reaching the point where the economy shifted from productive competition to unproductive oligopoly and monopoly was the stage at which the 3T transitioned to the 4T, which didn't happen until after the turn of the millenium.
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#15
(05-06-2020, 10:57 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: To the contrary.  While wages rose only slowly in the 3T, and a significant proportion of the excess productivity did enrich the elites, much of the excess productivity was spent in ensuring more security for nonelites, specifically through financing the Social Security Ponzi scheme that made GI and Silent retirees so much more secure, and through welfare programs that made those "unable" to work more secure.

Welfare and Social Security were progressive era programs, and existed long before the 3T.  It would be closer to the truth to say these were attacked by the conservatives during the 3T, that anything that provided for the people was systematically weakened.
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#16
(05-05-2020, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:58 AM)sbarrera Wrote: You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.

That's a good synopsis, but a bit overly generous to the last 1T.  A lot of scum crawled out of the pond in the 1950s, including Trump's original mouthpiece: Roy Cohn.  And let's agree that saccharine books and movies leave a bitter after taste unless they're done exceptionally well. It was a good time to be a kid, but I'm not so sure it was a great time to be an adult.

How about this: the joy of the 1T was fake, the joy of the 2T was ebullient, and the joy of the 3T was frenzied.
Steve Barrera

[A]lthough one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation. - Hagakure

Saecular Pages
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#17
(05-06-2020, 10:57 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-06-2020, 10:31 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 04:05 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:18 AM)David Horn Wrote: 3Ts are the 'eating of the seed corn' eras. Yes, they are enjoyable for those in a position to enjoy the fruits of prior efforts, but they suck mightily for most others.

Perhaps this most recent one was an exception, then.  I suppose you could say the 2T set the stage by starting the cracks in the obsolete, calcified structures of the 1T, clearing the way for full unraveling of them to make way for new, more productive freedom of the 3T.

Your productive freedom was realized as less security for most others.

To the contrary.  While wages rose only slowly in the 3T, and a significant proportion of the excess productivity did enrich the elites, much of the excess productivity was spent in ensuring more security for nonelites, specifically through financing the Social Security Ponzi scheme that made GI and Silent retirees so much more secure, and through welfare programs that made those "unable" to work more secure.

Inequality reaching the point where the economy shifted from productive competition to unproductive oligopoly and monopoly was the stage at which the 3T transitioned to the 4T, which didn't happen until after the turn of the millenium.

Are you really that out of touch?  This all started with Ronald Reagan, and his trickle down Morning in America. Some places it started even earlier, as capital used its clout to disadvantage (or eliminate entirely) the laboring class. This took decades, not years. The bottom 50% of the population saw their resiliency drop below zero: no economic cushion, no reliable job,  social disruption as men lost work and women became breadwinners.  Why do you think the opioid crisis happened anyway?  

We pushed the envelope and got just what was expected: social disintegration.  Donald Trump is President because he played on the anxieties of the falling-behind. Please tell me you didn't miss that?
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#18
(05-07-2020, 07:53 AM)sbarrera Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:58 AM)sbarrera Wrote: You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.

That's a good synopsis, but a bit overly generous to the last 1T.  A lot of scum crawled out of the pond in the 1950s, including Trump's original mouthpiece: Roy Cohn.  And let's agree that saccharine books and movies leave a bitter after taste unless they're done exceptionally well. It was a good time to be a kid, but I'm not so sure it was a great time to be an adult.

How about this: the joy of the 1T was fake, the joy of the 2T was ebullient, and the joy of the 3T was frenzied.

OK. The 1T was only fake in retrospect, but fake nonetheless. Big Grin
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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#19
(05-07-2020, 07:53 AM)sbarrera Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote:
(05-05-2020, 09:58 AM)sbarrera Wrote: You could think of it as the joy building up from the 1T into the 2T, then bursting out of control and developing a hard edge in the 3T. I remember the 3T as a fun time but one that got darker as it progressed.

That's a good synopsis, but a bit overly generous to the last 1T.  A lot of scum crawled out of the pond in the 1950s, including Trump's original mouthpiece: Roy Cohn.  And let's agree that saccharine books and movies leave a bitter after taste unless they're done exceptionally well. It was a good time to be a kid, but I'm not so sure it was a great time to be an adult.

How about this: the joy of the 1T was fake, the joy of the 2T was ebullient, and the joy of the 3T was frenzied.

That all sounds about right Smile
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#20
It is arguable that the most joyful time is the end of the Crisis Era... for the winners if their world isn't destroyed.

[Image: 300px-Churchill_waves_to_crowds.jpg]

On the other hand, the man signing the document of surrender in this photo

[Image: 244px-Field_Marshall_Keitel_signs_German...ration.jpg]

(Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, effectively the top general in the Third Reich mostly for being the most spineless lackey in the Wehrmacht) would eventually be hanged about a year and a half later after being convicted in the main Nuremberg trial for planning the war of aggression, forced disappearances (resulting in the death of those persons), signing orders authorizing crimes against captured enemy soldiers, and above all prohibiting interference in the massacres of the large Jewish populations in the occupied Soviet Union.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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