We're WEIRD. Get over it.

[pbrower2a]

(02-26-2021, 10:04 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 03:16 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: The opposite of Weird should be called Natural, which has the advantage of ambiguous meaning. Beautiful beaches are natural and so are deadly snakes. Love and creativity are natural, but so is cruelty.

Both Natural and Weird patterns are a mixture of good and bad traits. Natural societies have cohesive communities, which are good for emotional well-being. But they are also uncurious about the Universe beyond the limits of traditional knowledge. They are also known to persecute nonconformists, in extreme cases burning them at stakes.

Weird societies are driven by a spirit of curiosity and scepticism, which results in looking for signs of life on what for the Naturals is a pale red dot. Weird people make exciting entertainment, from rock music to sci-fi movies. The downsides are atomization, excessive selfishness and high level of mental disorders, especially depression and addictions, not only alcohol and illegal drugs but also porn and social media addiction.

The ideal form of human society must combine the best features of Natural and Weird.

On my compass, Weird seems to relate to Yellow and Purples sectors, and Natural to Blue and Brown. Red can be closer to Natural (like North Korea) or to Weird (like Trotskyism).

In this context, WEIRD is Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic.  I'm not sure that maps to another model.

Opposites from the thesaurus suggest non-Western, under-educated, agrarian, poor, and un-democratic. To spoof Lincoln Steffens, I could say "I have seen the future and it works" -- but that is South Korea. It is possible to have a non-Western aesthetic (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan) and fit the description "WEIRD"

[Captain Genet]

(02-26-2021, 01:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Opposites from the thesaurus suggest non-Western, under-educated, agrarian, poor, and un-democratic.

Afghanistan, Yemen or Somalia would be prime examples of a Natural society. They are both highly theocratic and nationalistic. Non-Western EIRD nations like Japan or South Korea also tend towards free market and lifestyle freedom, although they retain more collectivist values than America or the UK. So did Ancient Romans, though the process was reversed after the fall of the empire.

Not sure what's the causal link. Is this prosperity -> Weird culture as a Marxist would suggest, or Weird culture -> prosperity as neocons would?

[David Horn]

(02-27-2021, 05:38 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 01:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Opposites from the thesaurus suggest non-Western, under-educated, agrarian, poor, and un-democratic.

Afghanistan, Yemen or Somalia would be prime examples of a Natural society. They are both highly theocratic and nationalistic. Non-Western EIRD nations like Japan or South Korea also tend towards free market and lifestyle freedom, although they retain more collectivist values than America or the UK. So did Ancient Romans, though the process was reversed after the fall of the empire.

Not sure what's the causal link. Is this prosperity -> Weird culture as a Marxist would suggest, or Weird culture -> prosperity as neocons would?

The first post in this thread references the book that originated the acronym.  There's a synopsis there,  If you need more, there's always your favorite book seller or library.  There's a lot there, so the book is the only real source.

[pbrower2a]

(02-27-2021, 05:38 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 01:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Opposites from the thesaurus suggest non-Western, under-educated, agrarian, poor, and un-democratic.

Afghanistan, Yemen or Somalia would be prime examples of a Natural society. They are both highly theocratic and nationalistic. Non-Western WEIRD nations like Japan or South Korea also tend towards free market and lifestyle freedom, although they retain more collectivist values than America or the UK. So did Ancient Romans, though the process was reversed after the fall of the empire.

Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists living in Western societies might qualify as "WEIRD". Esthetic values in the Far East (from what I have seen in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean painting suggest parallels in Western art; Chinese painting is often almost baroque; Japanese painting suggests something like Impressionism, and Korean painting suggests Fauvism). Artistic schools are the least of it. 

The three countries that you mentioned as "Natural" society are all Islamic by religion. Could some other religion have retarded modernity at some point, perhaps only to abandon the retardation for economic reasons? The Catholic Church used to be hostile to commerce and repressive of any dissent... but when it found that commerce and science make life better it changed its ways. The well-off farmer or skilled tradesman might put more money into the collection plate.

I see the far East as more conformist than collectivist. Neither China (obvious enough with that political system), South Korea, nor Japan is a good place for a rebellious person. In the advanced industrial world, Japan is arguably the worst place in which to be a criminal. Although Japan has solid protections of freedom of conscience and has a free and competitive political system, it treats criminal offenders much like the PRC treats political offenders. The good thing to say about the Japanese penal system is that some offender who goes into it as an offender has been broken of attitudes that made him an offender. Of course, criminality is not quite WEIRD.       

Quote:Not sure what's the causal link. Is this prosperity -> Weird culture as a Marxist would suggest, or Weird culture -> prosperity as neocons would?

Positive feedback. If Marxist economics really worked (and Marxist societies succeed to the extent that they abandon the economic strictures of Marxism-Leninism do) they would likely foster WEIRD culture. Marx is definitely a figure of Western thought. Marxism isn't anti-intellectual by design (contrast fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism which are all hostile to independent learning). Marxism is in part a quest in any rural and agrarian society that undergoes a Marxist takeover to industrialize rapidly. China and Russia were quite poor when the Commies took over, and under Commie rule they became much richer within 70 years than they had been. (It is telling now that the PRC is on the brink of lasting longer than "Soviet Russia" did). 

What isn't WEIRD about any society informed upon Marx in politics (even if it has abandoned Marxist economics as has China) is the rejection of democracy. Marxism still has the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and one thing is certain: if one is of proletarian origin and has a role in governing any political system beyond voting in elections, one is no longer part of the proletariat. The dictatorship remains, but it is still not that of, by, or for the proletariat.

[Captain Genet]

(02-27-2021, 11:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The three countries that you mentioned as "Natural" society are all Islamic by religion. Could some other religion have retarded modernity at some point, perhaps only to abandon the retardation for economic reasons? The Catholic Church used to be hostile to commerce and repressive of any dissent... but when it found that commerce and science make life better it changed its ways. The well-off farmer or skilled tradesman might put more money into the collection plate.

There are very Natural societies in Africa, Melanesia, the Amazon or Indian outback which follow pagan religions or nominal Christianity. But yes, Islam is the least conducive to Weird values among major faiths. Hinduism is slightly better but not much so. At least India learned democracy from the British colonialists, and still practices it.

Quote:I see the far East as more conformist than collectivist. Neither China (obvious enough with that political system), South Korea, nor Japan is a good place for a rebellious person. In the advanced industrial world, Japan is arguably the worst place in which to be a criminal. Although Japan has solid protections of freedom of conscience and has a free and competitive political system, it treats criminal offenders much like the PRC treats political offenders. The good thing to say about the Japanese penal system is that some offender who goes into it as an offender has been broken of attitudes that made him an offender. Of course, criminality is not quite WEIRD.

Yes, they look like a perpetual 1T. Though the collectivist ethos is strong in Confucianism, which remains an important factor. The prophetic wing of Far Eastern culture, Taoism, encourages withdrawal into solitary contemplation, or even ecstatic sexual experience, rather than challenging the establishment.

Quote:Positive feedback. If Marxist economics really worked (and Marxist societies succeed to the extent that they abandon the economic strictures of Marxism-Leninism do) they would likely foster WEIRD culture. Marx is definitely a figure of Western thought. Marxism isn't anti-intellectual by design (contrast fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism which are all hostile to independent learning). Marxism is in part a quest in any rural and agrarian society that undergoes a Marxist takeover to industrialize rapidly. China and Russia were quite poor when the Commies took over, and under Commie rule they became much richer within 70 years than they had been. (It is telling now that the PRC is on the brink of lasting longer than "Soviet Russia" did). 

What isn't WEIRD about any society informed upon Marx in politics (even if it has abandoned Marxist economics as has China) is the rejection of democracy. Marxism still has the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and one thing is certain: if one is of proletarian origin and has a role in governing any political system beyond voting in elections, one is no longer part of the proletariat. The dictatorship remains, but it is still not that of, by, or for the proletariat.

In the 1920s the Soviet Union was a pioneer of many artistic and social trends, including "free love", but it later abandoned that in favour of more conservative social policy, allegedly because workers didn't appreciate Bohemian culture. On the other side, no society which fully embraced Weird values has a strong communist party. Jeremy Corbyn, despite being only a moderate Red type, suffered a devastating loss in the last British election. Commies had their big time in the transitional period, when Natural ways had already lost their appeal, but Weird culture wasn't fully formed.

[pbrower2a]

(02-27-2021, 02:35 PM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-27-2021, 11:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The three countries that you mentioned as "Natural" society are all Islamic by religion. Could some other religion have retarded modernity at some point, perhaps only to abandon the retardation for economic reasons? The Catholic Church used to be hostile to commerce and repressive of any dissent... but when it found that commerce and science make life better it changed its ways. The well-off farmer or skilled tradesman might put more money into the collection plate.

There are very Natural societies in Africa, Melanesia, the Amazon or Indian outback which follow pagan religions or nominal Christianity. But yes, Islam is the least conducive to Weird values among major faiths. Hinduism is slightly better but not much so. At least India learned democracy from the British colonialists, and still practices it.

Much of modernity is the recognition that what is 'natural' is simply superstition or the unexamined life. 

Quote:

Quote:I see the far East as more conformist than collectivist. Neither China (obvious enough with that political system), South Korea, nor Japan is a good place for a rebellious person. In the advanced industrial world, Japan is arguably the worst place in which to be a criminal. Although Japan has solid protections of freedom of conscience and has a free and competitive political system, it treats criminal offenders much like the PRC treats political offenders. The good thing to say about the Japanese penal system is that some offender who goes into it as an offender has been broken of attitudes that made him an offender. Of course, criminality is not quite WEIRD.

Yes, they look like a perpetual 1T. Though the collectivist ethos is strong in Confucianism, which remains an important factor. The prophetic wing of Far Eastern culture, Taoism, encourages withdrawal into solitary contemplation, or even ecstatic sexual experience, rather than challenging the establishment.

Interesting view. This said, the generational cycle may be more profound in the USA and some other countries with Enlightenment values as the uncontested core of public values and those societies that pick and choose. 

Quote:

Quote:Positive feedback. If Marxist economics really worked (and Marxist societies succeed to the extent that they abandon the economic strictures of Marxism-Leninism do) they would likely foster WEIRD culture. Marx is definitely a figure of Western thought. Marxism isn't anti-intellectual by design (contrast fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism which are all hostile to independent learning). Marxism is in part a quest in any rural and agrarian society that undergoes a Marxist takeover to industrialize rapidly. China and Russia were quite poor when the Commies took over, and under Commie rule they became much richer within 70 years than they had been. (It is telling now that the PRC is on the brink of lasting longer than "Soviet Russia" did). 

What isn't WEIRD about any society informed upon Marx in politics (even if it has abandoned Marxist economics as has China) is the rejection of democracy. Marxism still has the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and one thing is certain: if one is of proletarian origin and has a role in governing any political system beyond voting in elections, one is no longer part of the proletariat. The dictatorship remains, but it is still not that of, by, or for the proletariat.

In the 1920s the Soviet Union was a pioneer of many artistic and social trends, including "free love", but it later abandoned that in favour of more conservative social policy, allegedly because workers didn't appreciate Bohemian culture. On the other side, no society which fully embraced Weird values has a strong communist party. Jeremy Corbyn, despite being only a moderate Red type, suffered a devastating loss in the last British election. Commies had their big time in the transitional period, when Natural ways had already lost their appeal, but Weird culture wasn't fully formed.

I remember seeing a college-level text that showed what characteristics of society facilitated Communist revolutions. Certain patterns were true:

1. Early stage of industrialization. Such is a time of huge dislocation and social disruption. Peasants barely making a bare living as farmers and farm laborers who expect to have nothing so long as they remain where they are hear tales of marble streets and plentiful gold. The problem is that those semi-literate, unskilled people join the low end of the proletariat and exchange the rural hovel and the complex relationships of rural life for a new set of hardships in firetrap slums while working for harsh management. Disparities between the rich and poor may be at their worst. Proletarian revolutions do not succeed in pre-industrial societies because there is no urban proletariat. 

2. Absence of democracy.  A wide  variety of systems from feudal autocracy to colonial rule to military dictatorship is possible, but all lack one thing in common: genuine democracy. Where there is democracy there might form political parties that recognize the working-class majority and respond to its desires for better lives, if not for the workers themselves, then at least their children. Voluntary organizations such as trade unions that address pay and working conditions typically emerge where there is democracy in even an early-industrial society.  But where there is no semblance of democracy, the workers are on their own against ruling elites that turn to brutality when challenged.

It is worth remembering that in Imperial Russia before 1905 the Tsar was absolute and needed no parliament. He trusted the industrialists and big landowners who needed no partisan politics. Political activity such as one might expect in the USA, the UK, or France did not exist. Such as there was was secretive, extremist, conspiratorial, and violent to the point of terrorism -- as necessary for countering the secret police that dashed any attempt at social reform. There was no moderate tendency in politics that could counter the appeals of the Bolsheviks. 

3. Breakdown of traditional rule. The system of command-and-control normal in an undemocratic plutocracy can fall apart in war as it drafts large numbers of young men into military service and compels hardships upon masses expected to work harder for less for a war effort on behalf of an economic elite that demands more and offers less. Food shortages signal the end of the credibility of the leadership of the time.

4. Geographic concentration of economic activity.  The first countries to industrialize had their focus on consumer goods -- textiles, shoes, and housewares. Such manufacturing could be done as cottage industries, and people typically did their manufacturing work during slack times for agriculture. Things were made locally for local use, and seemingly everywhere. There was no need to concentrate economic activity in a few giant cities where there would be a large and disappointed proletariat that might assemble to hear the appeal of demagogues who promised everything so long as they could take power and exterminate the capitalists.

5. Emphasis on exports, military weaponry, and heavy industry. Such supposedly allowed more rapid economic growth than the cottage-industry sort of development, but it also ensured that the industrial workers would endure great hardships. What they were making could never improve their lives.  

6. Corrupt, incompetent, and irresponsible leadership. That goes with the territory with despotic and dictatorial government. 

Poverty may have been as severe in India as anywhere else in the world... but at the least when India was undergoing its early stage of industrialization...

2. India at the least had a quick transition to a free-wheeling democracy with by most standards were free and fair elections. 

3. India was on the fringe of the conflict of World War II, so it did not have the social disruption that most countries endured.

4, 5. Mohandas Gandhi himself promoted cottage industry, which may have slowed industrial development but at least avoided creating the social stresses.  

6. Free elections result in the rejection of bloodthirsty extremists either as reactionaries or revolutionaries.

[beechnut79]

(02-27-2021, 02:35 PM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-27-2021, 11:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The three countries that you mentioned as "Natural" society are all Islamic by religion. Could some other religion have retarded modernity at some point, perhaps only to abandon the retardation for economic reasons? The Catholic Church used to be hostile to commerce and repressive of any dissent... but when it found that commerce and science make life better it changed its ways. The well-off farmer or skilled tradesman might put more money into the collection plate.

There are very Natural societies in Africa, Melanesia, the Amazon or Indian outback which follow pagan religions or nominal Christianity. But yes, Islam is the least conducive to Weird values among major faiths. Hinduism is slightly better but not much so. At least India learned democracy from the British colonialists, and still practices it.

Quote:I see the far East as more conformist than collectivist. Neither China (obvious enough with that political system), South Korea, nor Japan is a good place for a rebellious person. In the advanced industrial world, Japan is arguably the worst place in which to be a criminal. Although Japan has solid protections of freedom of conscience and has a free and competitive political system, it treats criminal offenders much like the PRC treats political offenders. The good thing to say about the Japanese penal system is that some offender who goes into it as an offender has been broken of attitudes that made him an offender. Of course, criminality is not quite WEIRD.

Yes, they look like a perpetual 1T. Though the collectivist ethos is strong in Confucianism, which remains an important factor. The prophetic wing of Far Eastern culture, Taoism, encourages withdrawal into solitary contemplation, or even ecstatic sexual experience, rather than challenging the establishment.

Quote:Positive feedback. If Marxist economics really worked (and Marxist societies succeed to the extent that they abandon the economic strictures of Marxism-Leninism do) they would likely foster WEIRD culture. Marx is definitely a figure of Western thought. Marxism isn't anti-intellectual by design (contrast fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism which are all hostile to independent learning). Marxism is in part a quest in any rural and agrarian society that undergoes a Marxist takeover to industrialize rapidly. China and Russia were quite poor when the Commies took over, and under Commie rule they became much richer within 70 years than they had been. (It is telling now that the PRC is on the brink of lasting longer than "Soviet Russia" did). 

What isn't WEIRD about any society informed upon Marx in politics (even if it has abandoned Marxist economics as has China) is the rejection of democracy. Marxism still has the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and one thing is certain: if one is of proletarian origin and has a role in governing any political system beyond voting in elections, one is no longer part of the proletariat. The dictatorship remains, but it is still not that of, by, or for the proletariat.

In the 1920s the Soviet Union was a pioneer of many artistic and social trends, including "free love", but it later abandoned that in favour of more conservative social policy, allegedly because workers didn't appreciate Bohemian culture. On the other side, no society which fully embraced Weird values has a strong communist party. Jeremy Corbyn, despite being only a moderate Red type, suffered a devastating loss in the last British election. Commies had their big time in the transitional period, when Natural ways had already lost their appeal, but Weird culture wasn't fully formed.

Same thing happened in the US as well as culture turned more conservative during the Reagan years as the AIDS scare effectively killed off the so-called sexual revolution. Went from overly hedonistic to overly workaholic nearly overnight, thus making liars out of all those futurists who had predicted that the new technology would lead to a world of ever increased leisure. Do you think we’ll ever see that once all but promised world of leisure ever arrive?

[pbrower2a]

(02-28-2021, 10:03 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(02-27-2021, 02:35 PM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-27-2021, 11:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: The three countries that you mentioned as "Natural" society are all Islamic by religion. Could some other religion have retarded modernity at some point, perhaps only to abandon the retardation for economic reasons? The Catholic Church used to be hostile to commerce and repressive of any dissent... but when it found that commerce and science make life better it changed its ways. The well-off farmer or skilled tradesman might put more money into the collection plate.

There are very Natural societies in Africa, Melanesia, the Amazon or Indian outback which follow pagan religions or nominal Christianity. But yes, Islam is the least conducive to Weird values among major faiths. Hinduism is slightly better but not much so. At least India learned democracy from the British colonialists, and still practices it.

Quote:I see the far East as more conformist than collectivist. Neither China (obvious enough with that political system), South Korea, nor Japan is a good place for a rebellious person. In the advanced industrial world, Japan is arguably the worst place in which to be a criminal. Although Japan has solid protections of freedom of conscience and has a free and competitive political system, it treats criminal offenders much like the PRC treats political offenders. The good thing to say about the Japanese penal system is that some offender who goes into it as an offender has been broken of attitudes that made him an offender. Of course, criminality is not quite WEIRD.

Yes, they look like a perpetual 1T. Though the collectivist ethos is strong in Confucianism, which remains an important factor. The prophetic wing of Far Eastern culture, Taoism, encourages withdrawal into solitary contemplation, or even ecstatic sexual experience, rather than challenging the establishment.

Quote:Positive feedback. If Marxist economics really worked (and Marxist societies succeed to the extent that they abandon the economic strictures of Marxism-Leninism do) they would likely foster WEIRD culture. Marx is definitely a figure of Western thought. Marxism isn't anti-intellectual by design (contrast fascism, Nazism, and Ku Kluxism which are all hostile to independent learning). Marxism is in part a quest in any rural and agrarian society that undergoes a Marxist takeover to industrialize rapidly. China and Russia were quite poor when the Commies took over, and under Commie rule they became much richer within 70 years than they had been. (It is telling now that the PRC is on the brink of lasting longer than "Soviet Russia" did). 

What isn't WEIRD about any society informed upon Marx in politics (even if it has abandoned Marxist economics as has China) is the rejection of democracy. Marxism still has the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and one thing is certain: if one is of proletarian origin and has a role in governing any political system beyond voting in elections, one is no longer part of the proletariat. The dictatorship remains, but it is still not that of, by, or for the proletariat.

In the 1920s the Soviet Union was a pioneer of many artistic and social trends, including "free love", but it later abandoned that in favour of more conservative social policy, allegedly because workers didn't appreciate Bohemian culture. On the other side, no society which fully embraced Weird values has a strong communist party. Jeremy Corbyn, despite being only a moderate Red type, suffered a devastating loss in the last British election. Commies had their big time in the transitional period, when Natural ways had already lost their appeal, but Weird culture wasn't fully formed.

Same thing happened in the US as well as culture turned more conservative during the Reagan years as the AIDS scare effectively killed off the so-called sexual revolution. Went from overly hedonistic to overly workaholic nearly overnight, thus making liars out of all those futurists who had predicted that the new technology would lead to a world of ever increased leisure. Do you think we’ll ever see that once all but promised world of leisure ever arrive?

If the transition to a more leisure-based society becomes  a necessity for saving the system, then the elites will go along. Capitalism is not a death cult even if the economic elites are as much moral scum as Einzige says they are.  If I can see any ultimate reality in capitalism, then it is that the overall economy is a circuit between one group of rich people to another group of rich people, and the common people are the conduit. Without the common man as the conduit, capitalism degenerates into a speculative frenzy that ultimately collapses as in 1857, 1929, and 2008. The specter of Communism remains a reality as what Marx prophesied might be achieved in ways other than proletarian revolt that jump-starts economic progress.

Economic inequality, with threats of hunger and homelessness,  that serves to maintain a command-and-control social order, may itself become irrelevant. Basic human needs are now far easier to meet than they used to be.

[Eric the Green]

"Most of us are WEIRD: Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic." Maybe that "I" should be changed to "Information-Aged"? Industry is getting to be old hat now. In most western countries, the remains of industry are all around and are now reminders of an obsolete and abandoned yesterday. That's how it always appears in Rick Steves' trips to Europe, for example.

[pbrower2a]

That's not the first thing that I notice with Rick Steves, as he generally seeks to show the brighter side of life in the scenic delights and such places as street cafes. Industrial Europe and America never were glamorous even when they were churning out the goods that gave workers a material quality of life that medieval aristocrats would have envied (except for the tiny flats and obligation to toil). Steel cities like Essen, Pittsburgh, Gary, and Birmingham (Alabama) were awful places.

[beechnut79]

(02-28-2021, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: That's not the first thing that I notice with Rick Steves, as he generally seeks to show the brighter side of life in the scenic delights and such places as street cafes. Industrial Europe and America never were glamorous even when they were churning out the goods that gave workers a material quality of life that medieval aristocrats would have envied (except for the tiny flats and obligation to toil). Steel cities like Essen, Pittsburgh, Gary, and Birmingham (Alabama) were awful places.

For the most part the cities you mentors are even more awful today, as is Detroit.

[pbrower2a]

(03-01-2021, 10:06 AM)beechnut79 Wrote:

(02-28-2021, 11:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: That's not the first thing that I notice with Rick Steves, as he generally seeks to show the brighter side of life in the scenic delights and such places as street cafes. Industrial Europe and America never were glamorous even when they were churning out the goods that gave workers a material quality of life that medieval aristocrats would have envied (except for the tiny flats and obligation to toil). Steel cities like Essen, Pittsburgh, Gary, and Birmingham (Alabama) were awful places.

For the most part the cities you mentors are even more awful today, as is Detroit.

At one time, Detroit was the great beacon of promise, when the automobile industry was the equivalent of high technology and Greater Detroit was the equivalent of Silicon Valley in its recent heyday. People came from all over the world to work in factories that paid well. Automobiles created their own need for such high technology as had to fit a motor vehicle (such as the sophisticated radios). Delco was the Apple or Hewlett-Packard of its day.

[Captain Genet]

(02-28-2021, 11:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Most of us are WEIRD: Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic." Maybe that "I" should be changed to "Information-Aged"? Industry is getting to be old hat now. In most western countries, the remains of industry are all around and are now reminders of an obsolete and abandoned yesterday. That's how it always appears in Rick Steves' trips to Europe, for example.

Internet-connected would be more appropriate than Mr Butler's Star Trek cruft.

Also, without industry (mostly Chinese) there wouldn't be any Millennial iPhones.

[Captain Genet]

(02-28-2021, 10:03 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: Same thing happened in the US as well as culture turned more conservative during the Reagan years as the AIDS scare effectively killed off the so-called sexual revolution. Went from overly hedonistic to overly workaholic nearly overnight, thus making liars out of all those futurists who had predicted that the new technology would lead to a world of ever increased leisure. Do you think we’ll ever see that once all but promised world of leisure ever arrive?

Life of productive work is better than a perpetual holiday. Age of Discovery aristocrats lived without work, and we all know how degenerate they became.

[David Horn]

(03-02-2021, 04:30 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-28-2021, 11:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Most of us are WEIRD: Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic." Maybe that "I" should be changed to "Information-Aged"? Industry is getting to be old hat now. In most western countries, the remains of industry are all around and are now reminders of an obsolete and abandoned yesterday. That's how it always appears in Rick Steves' trips to Europe, for example.

Internet-connected would be more appropriate than Mr Butler's Star Trek cruft.

Also, without industry (mostly Chinese) there wouldn't be any Millennial iPhones.

That's a way-to-literal reading of the term "Industrialized". In this context, it refers to the extent that modernity is achievable within society. Without an industrial base, there can be no version of modernity we're accustom to living within.  Yes, the Information age is moving the bar again, but so far, we're still more likely to feel aggrieved if we have no running water than we are when the Internet is down.

[David Horn]

(03-02-2021, 10:20 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-28-2021, 10:03 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: Same thing happened in the US as well as culture turned more conservative during the Reagan years as the AIDS scare effectively killed off the so-called sexual revolution. Went from overly hedonistic to overly workaholic nearly overnight, thus making liars out of all those futurists who had predicted that the new technology would lead to a world of ever increased leisure. Do you think we’ll ever see that once all but promised world of leisure ever arrive?

Life of productive work is better than a perpetual holiday. Age of Discovery aristocrats lived without work, and we all know how degenerate they became.

That may be a future risk to address in time, but not now.  Most of us will coast-out on the old work paradigm, since the replacement of us with machines is still decades off.  Millennials may be at risk of seeing this near the end of their lifetimes.  The younger gens almost certainly will much earlier in theirs.  Even then, the Era of Work will not be totally behind us, but work will start looking like a hobby rather than a source of income.  How is still TBD.

[pbrower2a]

(03-02-2021, 10:20 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(02-28-2021, 10:03 AM)beechnut79 Wrote: Same thing happened in the US as well as culture turned more conservative during the Reagan years as the AIDS scare effectively killed off the so-called sexual revolution. Went from overly hedonistic to overly workaholic nearly overnight, thus making liars out of all those futurists who had predicted that the new technology would lead to a world of ever increased leisure. Do you think we’ll ever see that once all but promised world of leisure ever arrive?

Life of productive work is better than a perpetual holiday. Age of Discovery aristocrats lived without work, and we all know how degenerate they became.

But the degeneracy of the aristocrats was possible only because the peasantry was worked to the physical limit of endurance and was always underfed. Working to exhaustion on starvation rations is the norm under feudalism and fascism (the latter the technologically-modern version of feudalism. An example: one could not change employers (unless to join the military or paramilitary organizations) without the consent of an employer. 

People can adapt. There will be time for this:

Moby-Dick, or The Whale

I am not certain that we supposedly-modern people with our iPods and ultra-modern flat-screen TV's with access to over 200 channels of cable television would be any less happy reading the books that our great-grandparents read as faute-a-mieux. Entities now selling sound equipment have selections set for hearing rap "music" (an oxymoron), pop music with exaggerated midrange bass that gets tiresome fast, or country music that sounds much the same on whatever one plays it back. What if you prefer classical music, jazz, or folk?

By reading great literature one will find something worth talking about. What can one say about a trip to a casino  to pump money into a vending machine whose rewards are uncertain? What can one say about visiting the "nudie bar" as the vulgarian "Al Bundy" called it on Married With Children? The shopping mall went from new and exciting to banal in about forty years. In 1975 it may have seemed the wave of the future. That future has passed, and the enclosed shopping mall has often been demolished for something else.